Did God create evil?

[mle]

Please read Isaiah 45:7(kjv) and you will see what I'm getting at with this question.

It is hard for me to imagine God creating evil but Gods ways are higher than mine and His thoughts higher than my thoughts. I have been searching to know God in this matter. There is no evil in God himself, so how could He create evil?

I believe that God did create evil because He is the Creator. No other has the power to create. God created Lucifer. He chose to turn away from God along with the other angels who went with him and the became Satan and his demons.

I think it is important not to debate whether God created evil directly or indirectly, unless it is backed by the word of God with scripture reference, please.

Other bible versions refer to evil as disaster in this passage of scripture. Is disaster the same as evil? Perhaps, evil in simplicity, is the absence of God.
What do you think of this part of scripture and the other thoughts I've had in relation to it?

 

[flyfishing]

Oh oh! Heres the debate on free will...

 

[enoch son]

No debate the answer is Proverb 16-4 "YES"

 

[flyfishing]

No debate the answer is Proverb 16-4 "YES"

So lets see he cretes this without giving that person a free will??????????

 

[Trish1947]

It seems to me that the first hint of evil in Heaven was because of Satans beauty. He was created the most beautiful of the angels. The scriptures say that iniquity was found in him. The iniquity found was jelousey of God. His beauty was unrivaled to any in Heaven except God. How can iniquitey be found in an angel thats is created to serve. A robot. It seems to me, that angels might have been given choices. They had to have conversation with each other for Satan to convience part of the host of Heaven to revolt against God. So maybe everything God creates has a choice. We are only told by teachers that angels dont have the right to choose. I dont find that it scriptures anywhere.

 

[Jim B]

Hey, I have a great idea.

When you give a scripture reference for proof-text, take the time to include the scripture in the message so we don't have to look it up (I never do anyway). I would think the burden of proof is on you, not us.

Just a suggestion.

Jim
\o/

 

[Trish1947]

You want a scripture that says satan was good looking? Or one that says there was a revolt in Heaven?


I'm sorry I'll give them next time.

The rest was just an opinion

I was assuming that if there was a revolt in heaven, Does not that take independant thought?

 

[mle]

oops!!

 

[mle]

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Proverbs 16:4 (KJV)
The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Here are the scripture references that you asked for, Jim B. I would like to suggest you bring your bible to the computer with you to verify the word that is being given. How do you know if we have given the right verse and what is the verse before and after for context? I find that I learn much more when I'm forced to look things up for myself.

Trish, I have had the same thoughts as you in relation to this subject. I too thought that one of the differences between man and the angels is free will. Is this so or not?
Obviously, the angels were give a choice when Lucifer became Satan and some of the angels chose to go with Satan. Can anybody find any bible verses to back this opinion? Why have we been taught this teaching of angels not having free will if there is no truth to it?

enoch son, thank you for this scripture reference it also backs up what is said in Isaiah.

flyfishing I hope you don't think I started this thread to create tension or a hot debate. This question came up at our bible study last night and from my heart I want to know God. I am finding the question of free will regarding angels important. I want to know if I have been taught false doctrine and if the doctrine is right, where is it in the bible that says that teaching. I trust the word of God over any opinion. It was hard for me last night to see many in my group respond to that verse in such a heartfelt way saying that they don't agree with it. I mean, how can one who is a child of God, not agree with the bible?

 

[flyfishing]

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Proverbs 16:4 (KJV)
The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Here are the scripture references that you asked for, Jim B. I would like to suggest you bring your bible to the computer with you to verify the word that is being given. How do you know if we have given the right verse and what is the verse before and after for context? I find that I learn much more when I'm forced to look things up for myself.

Trish, I have had the same thoughts as you in relation to this subject. I too thought that one of the differences between man and the angels is free will. Is this so or not?
Obviously, the angels were give a choice when Lucifer became Satan and some of the angels chose to go with Satan. Can anybody find any bible verses to back this opinion? Why have we been taught this teaching of angels not having free will if there is no truth to it?

enoch son, thank you for this scripture reference it also backs up what is said in Isaiah.

flyfishing I hope you don't think I started this thread to create tension or a hot debate. This question came up at our bible study last night and from my heart I want to know God. I am finding the question of free will regarding angels important. I want to know if I have been taught false doctrine and if the doctrine is right, where is it in the bible that says that teaching. I trust the word of God over any opinion. It was hard for me last night to see many in my group respond to that verse in such a heartfelt way saying that they don't agree with it. I mean, how can one who is a child of God, not agree with the bible?

I believe all creation has a free will or the creator cannot be just.. Or loving, since he is both i see that as one proof that even ole slewfoot had a free will..Notice the following verse..

In isaiah 14: 12 -15 the i wills of slewfoot. Slewfoot chose to rebel, have glory brought to himself instead of the LORD JESUS...

No problems by me sister...

 

[Trish1947]

The hyerarchy of God is to never be questioned. We see that in Heaven and on this Earth.

How many times did Jesus say to us, "the servent is never Greater than his Master

Matt: 23:8
But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ: and all ye are brethren
9, And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10, Neither be ye called masters, for one is your Master , even Christ.

Many more ref. to this.. This is repeated over and over in the Hyerarchy of God.

An opinion: Jesus was about to give us everything, and He stressed the importance of not usurping God's authoritiy. He is sharing his authority with us, as Sons and Daughters, not giving it away.

Satan took what God had given him and tried to usurp Gods authority. One of God's most beautiful angels was overcome by what God had given Him and used it for His own agenda, which was to overthow God. Sounds like free will to me. A little paranoid, but free will non the less.

 

[jons911]

Here's a good proof I've found by Alvin Platinga...

1. Free will is of moral value. That is, a world with free will is better than one without it.
2. It is a contradiction to say that God brings it about that humans freely will only the good.
3. God must bring about the best possible world in his capacity.
4. Therefore, God would be correct to create a world with free will.
5. But then God is not responsible for evil (choices), since it is not in his power to bring it about that men freely choose only the good.

It's wordy, I know, but if you think about it, the proof kinda makes sense.

See more here:
http://www.xenos.org/essays/evilpo.htm

When you give a scripture reference for proof-text, take the time to include the scripture in the message so we don't have to look it up (I never do anyway). I would think the burden of proof is on you, not us.

Acts 17:11
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

You should be checking regardless - whether the Scripture is included or not....


Jon

 

[Ghost23]

i dont have a long lengthy explanation but i think God did create evil in order that free will could come into existence. so it kind of implies that evil is not sin but a choice and if we make the wrong choice it becomes sin.

maybe that doesnt seem right i havent really completely formulated it in me yet so it could have some problems in my idea.

 

[LynneClomina]

i kinda think that evil is simply an absense of God... when he turns ppl over to their sin, their wickedness, and evil, He is withdrawing, and proving what we have without Him - evil. death. separation from God. they are both that, i guess.

just my thoughts, anyways!
Lynne

 

[jons911]

Lynne -

I totally agree. Sin is the absence of God's will.

But do you think God really "turns people over to their sin", or do you think we are turning ourselves away?

Jon

 

[LynneClomina]

Lynne -

I totally agree. Sin is the absence of God's will.

But do you think God really "turns people over to their sin", or do you think we are turning ourselves away?

Jon

yah, God turns people over to their sin...

maybe somebody with Bible for brains could elaborate??? wheres the scriptures? i know they are there somewhere!!!!

 

[LynneClomina]

oh, and the absense of GOODness, which is only GOD of course! not just the absence of his will, but of HIM.

like a withdrawel of fellowship, of his spirit, lack of his presence.

i didnt say that very well, but i'll let it stand....

 

[jons911]

Lynn - I believe I misinterpreted what you wrote, as I have received a clarification from your post.

What I thought you meant was that God would have us sin so that he could prove what we don't have when He isn't there. Did you mean it that way? That God would plan for us to sin so that we would be corrected?

Jon

 

[enoch son]

MLE; The answer to the post is yes. Everthing else is just man's soul trying to figure out what God is doing. Pointless! 1 Cor. 2-10-16 What my personal opinion is on this matter does not matter. For it is up to the spirit of God to show us these things and that is a higher state then the book in one's mind. For it will teaches us in the innerman. And as we all know when it teaches us a truth our heart leaps with in us and our mind say's "WHY DIDN"T I SEE THIS BEFORE". So we go on "FROM GLORY TO GLORY."

 

[jons911]

1 Tim 4:4-5
For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.
Bolding mine