Did God create evil?

[AdB]

I'm asked the following question regularly...

"How can God be both all-good and the creator of everything when He has also created the evil things of this world?
And if He didn't create the evil things of this world then He is not the creator of everything..."

I always answer this by asking these questions:
"What is darkness? What is cold?"

I will then present the answers as:
"Darkness is the ABSENCE of light, and cold is the ABSENCE of heat"
So darkness and cold aren't actual things in themselves, they are merely the name we give the ABSENCE of something...

And then I will answer the initial question:
"Evil is the ABSENCE of goodness..."

So God didn't CREATE evil, He only creates good things.
But where His goodness is rejected an ABSENCE of goodness is created, and the ABSENCE of goodness is called evil...

I would like to know your thoughts about this...

 

[Josheb]

I'm asked the following question regularly...

"How can God be both all-good and the creator of everything when He has also created the evil things of this world?

He did not create evil.

And if He didn't create the evil things of this world then He is not the creator of everything..."

Evil is the antithesis of good, the absence of good. It's not a created thing.

I always answer this by asking these questions:
"What is darkness? What is cold?"

I will then present the answers as:
"Darkness is the ABSENCE of light, and cold is the ABSENCE of heat"
So darkness and cold aren't actual things in themselves, they are merely the name we give the ABSENCE of something...

And then I will answer the initial question:
"Evil is the ABSENCE of goodness..."

So God didn't CREATE evil, He only creates good things.
But where His goodness is rejected an ABSENCE of goodness is created, and the ABSENCE of goodness is called evil...

I would like to know your thoughts about this...

It appears your answers and mine are identical.

Ultimately, the opening question and comment argue a false-cause fallacy built on undefined terms (and the assumption evil is a created thing). As a whole, it serves only as a red herring.

 

[timf]

found on the web site christianpioneer.com

Robots in Revolt

A favorite science fiction theme is robots. This imagery can be useful for a mental simulation exercise that can illustrate man’s relation to God. If we think of God as an inventor and humans as robots, the first choice God would face was whether or not his robots would be programmed to follow his instructions or have the option to make their own choices.

A human inventor would be unlikely to allow his robots to act on their own as he would recognize the possibility and even likelihood that his invention could kill him. While humans cannot kill God, our running amok would serve no divine purpose. A key element in the design choice to give free will to the robots would be to devise a way for what is created to use their free will to recognize that it is in their best interest to align their choices with that of their creator.

Since the robots could not be programmed to know what is best, they would have to discover it for themselves. Since living for self is both destructive to others as well as oneself, and living for others is the discovery of love, one would think that an observant robot would quickly align himself with the desires of his creator and be able to escape the misery of making bad choices.

Many of the robots experiencing the pain of suffering would question if there was an inventor, why he would allow them to suffer. They fail to recognize that they were not created to experience comfort and ease, but to choose between selfishness and selflessness. The heart of the inventor would be grieved by the pain his robots experienced from the suffering they inflicted on themselves and others.

The inventor could choose some robots to communicate with so that they could tell others what was expected of them. He might pick one robot from whom generations of robots would accumulate his words. He might give them a list of rules and ask them to follow them. He might even communicate with some over time telling them what would happen in the future. He might even send his son to live among them to show them the way out of the suffering they persist in inflicting on themselves.

Those robots that managed to hear about the inventor and learn from his words what was expected would be able to see the world in truth. Truth can shatter the delusions of pride. Truth can bring shame for the harm caused to others. Truth can open eyes to reality. Truth can grow and become the way a robot can be connected to his inventor.

At a future point when all the robots have been deactivated, the inventor can identify those who trusted in the truth and reactivate them because they have learned to use their free will to choose the will of the inventor. There would be no need to reactivate those robots who could not give up seeking after self.

While stories about robots can be entertaining, they can also be used as an illustration to help us understand the purpose and goal of our existence. They can also help us understand why we have to endure for now the consequence of those “robots” who rebel against their creator.

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. - 1 Timothy 2:3-4

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I'm asked the following question regularly...

"How can God be both all-good and the creator of everything when He has also created the evil things of this world?
And if He didn't create the evil things of this world then He is not the creator of everything..."

I always answer this by asking these questions:
"What is darkness? What is cold?"

I will then present the answers as:
"Darkness is the ABSENCE of light, and cold is the ABSENCE of heat"
So darkness and cold aren't actual things in themselves, they are merely the name we give the ABSENCE of something...

And then I will answer the initial question:
"Evil is the ABSENCE of goodness..."

So God didn't CREATE evil, He only creates good things.
But where His goodness is rejected an ABSENCE of goodness is created, and the ABSENCE of goodness is called evil...

I would like to know your thoughts about this...

The word translated as evil in the Old Testament has a varied meaning from minor discomfort to genocide based on the sentence application.

So what was actually meant in a particular Isaiah verse is not clear.

 

[NBB]

Evil is doing something God doesn't want, so evil entered the world by disobedience, satan too disobeyed, why God didn't forbid his creation from disobeying at all? i don't know, maybe he wants their created beings to have liberty of obeying him or not.

Also funny people blame God, when he is with open arms ready to fix this world, but no people reject his help then blame him.

 

[J-316]

Yes, God created all things. In Isaiah 45:7, God says, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things”. Additionally, Proverbs 16:4 states, “The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.” There are many other verses like this throughout the Bible.

 

[AdB]

Yes, God created all things. In Isaiah 45:7, God says, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things”. Additionally, Proverbs 16:4 states, “The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.” There are many other verses like this throughout the Bible.

Good observation!
But it seems to me these verses are not equating this making of evil things to the creation act of Genesis (bara).
In Genesis there are more things made out of that what was initially created.
So indeed the evil things are formed out of what God initially made, and it eventually was by His design in the sense that it was not a surprise to Him, He already incorporated the evil things into His devine plan.
But the point is that God didn't create evil things

 

[T.i.m.o.t.h.y.]

I'm asked the following question regularly...

"How can God be both all-good and the creator of everything when He has also created the evil things of this world?
And if He didn't create the evil things of this world then He is not the creator of everything..."

I always answer this by asking these questions:
"What is darkness? What is cold?"

I will then present the answers as:
"Darkness is the ABSENCE of light, and cold is the ABSENCE of heat"
So darkness and cold aren't actual things in themselves, they are merely the name we give the ABSENCE of something...

And then I will answer the initial question:
"Evil is the ABSENCE of goodness..."

So God didn't CREATE evil, He only creates good things.
But where His goodness is rejected an ABSENCE of goodness is created, and the ABSENCE of goodness is called evil...

I would like to know your thoughts about this...

Have a look at the words in the text. "I form the light and create darkness." On a spherical globe all the surface does not experience light at the same time. The sun constantly shines while the world turns away from it constantly. So when people turn away from God they live in darkness.

"I bring prosperity and create calamity." This too is evident that not all experience the same thing. When people look for peace they'll find it through God but when they turn away they experience calamity or troubles.

God's statements indicate that He is the source of all that is good, but when people don't seek Him they experience the opposite of what He provides.

People want what's good because God made humans that way. But the world hands out poor substitutes and persuades you to settle for less. Jesus said that the flesh profits nothing. But he that comes to God must believe that He is, and that He rewards those who diligently seek Him.

 

[AdB]

On a spherical globe all the surface does not experience light at the same time. The sun constantly shines while the world turns away from it constantly. So when people turn away from God they live in darkness

Excellent analogy!

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I'm asked the following question regularly...

"How can God be both all-good and the creator of everything when He has also created the evil things of this world?
And if He didn't create the evil things of this world then He is not the creator of everything..."

I always answer this by asking these questions:
"What is darkness? What is cold?"

I will then present the answers as:
"Darkness is the ABSENCE of light, and cold is the ABSENCE of heat"
So darkness and cold aren't actual things in themselves, they are merely the name we give the ABSENCE of something...

And then I will answer the initial question:
"Evil is the ABSENCE of goodness..."

So God didn't CREATE evil, He only creates good things.
But where His goodness is rejected an ABSENCE of goodness is created, and the ABSENCE of goodness is called evil...

I would like to know your thoughts about this...

I see it this way evil is not a created thing it is the ability that God has given his creation to go against his nature and will. Gods purpose in creating mankind was to invite his creation into a loving relationship with the Trinity, this could only happen if we had free will to choose him out of a free will choice which is the highest form of love. For this to happen God had to give his creation the ability to reject him and that is evil. But because God is love and could not do anything that is not out of love he would have to pay the ultimate price of his allowance of evil. That’s why scripture says “Christ was crucified before the foundation of the world “ God paid the price of evil “ I came not to judge the world but to save the world “ ( that be Jesus) this whole process for the last 6000 years is all about God getting what he wants and in the end he will eliminate evil .1 Cor 15 the last enemy to be defeated is death then God will be all in all and God will then make New Heaven and New Earth and the old things will pass away (evil) evil will be no more eliminated not hidden away in a place of never ending evil that God has to maintain and sustain for all eternity.

 

[com7fy8]

I'm asked the following question regularly...

"How can God be both all-good and the creator of everything when He has also created the evil things of this world?
And if He didn't create the evil things of this world then He is not the creator of everything..."

Well, God is all-good; so other things need to fit with this.

You can be a good farmer who provides for your family. But every now and then you create a bucket of manure which is not food. But you are not the source of that manure. Creating food by agriculture is not the same as creating a bucket of manure by collecting what your cows made.

Because you are good, you make arrangements and containers for the sewage.

Like this, God is managing evil . . . on its way to the flaming sewer which burns with fire and brimstone. And there are humans who are vessels of the sewage of pride and lusts and unforgiveness on their way to hell. But God is good, not smelly and nasty with that stuff > He did not create it, but He is creative in how He manages it so it does not spoil everything.

I always answer this by asking these questions:
"What is darkness? What is cold?"

I will then present the answers as:
"Darkness is the ABSENCE of light, and cold is the ABSENCE of heat"
So darkness and cold aren't actual things in themselves, they are merely the name we give the ABSENCE of something...

And then I will answer the initial question:
"Evil is the ABSENCE of goodness..."

So God didn't CREATE evil, He only creates good things.
But where His goodness is rejected an ABSENCE of goodness is created, and the ABSENCE of goodness is called evil...

There is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" > in Ephesians 2:2 > this spirit of Satan, I would say, is not some nonexistent absence.

I would like to know your thoughts about this...

The Bible does say that God made all things. And so, ones say this means that all in existence was made by God. But I consider that God could have started with basic stuff which He used to make all created things. This could include that God did not bring Satan's evil spirit into existence, but God has made vessels which contain the spirit of evil so it can be managed . . . even for God's good.

That is another item . . . about all the evil. God is creative to bring even good out of what evil does. He can bring better than whatsoever evil has ruined and taken away . . . like our Father has made such good out of the crucifixion of Jesus.

 

[AdB]

God is managing evil

I agree with this, God has total control and only what He allow will happen, but you're not addressing the origin of evil/

There is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" > in Ephesians 2:2 > this spirit of Satan, I would say, is not some nonexistent absence.

I never claimed the evil spirits are a nonexistent absence, my claim is that these entities are what they are because the ABSENCE of God's goodness.

The Bible does say that God made all things. And so, ones say this means that all in existence was made by God. But I consider that God could have started with basic stuff which He used to make all created things. This could include that God did not bring Satan's evil spirit into existence, but God has made vessels which contain the spirit of evil so it can be managed . . . even for God's good.

Aren't you making things more complicated than necessary?
If God created satan (innitially known as Lucifer) as a good entity, including a relationship with God, but at a later time, by his own choice, satan rejected the good things of God, thereby creating a void in jhis own being and becoming the evil entity we know him to be

 

[AdB]

states:evil is not a created thing it is the ability that God has given his creation to go against his nature and will

I agree with your exposition, but I would rephrase this sentence as "evil is not a created thing it is the RESULT OF that God has given his creation to go against his nature and will"

But because God is love and could not do anything that is not out of love he would have to pay the ultimate price of his allowance of evil.

This is actually a very profound thought!
As 2 Cor 5:18-19 states "All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation."

So indeed because God is completely good, He took ALL the evil of the WHOLE world upon Himself so that evil will be completely compensated.

 

[Palmfever]

I'm asked the following question regularly...

"How can God be both all-good and the creator of everything when He has also created the evil things of this world?
And if He didn't create the evil things of this world then He is not the creator of everything..."

I always answer this by asking these questions:
"What is darkness? What is cold?"

I will then present the answers as:
"Darkness is the ABSENCE of light, and cold is the ABSENCE of heat"
So darkness and cold aren't actual things in themselves, they are merely the name we give the ABSENCE of something...

And then I will answer the initial question:
"Evil is the ABSENCE of goodness..."

So God didn't CREATE evil, He only creates good things.
But where His goodness is rejected an ABSENCE of goodness is created, and the ABSENCE of goodness is called evil...

I would like to know your thoughts about this...

I really don't understand why some still ask the question.
God is --- God.
There is nothing that exists that He did not create. He created Satan. He created us with a mind, a soul, a body and a spirit.
Our mind, spirit and soul inhabit this nice little vehicle which is a vehicle built for two. Our spirit and His spirit. When we do not ride with Him we have this sense of something missing. A lack of direction. A desire for answers. A longing for home.
Isaiah 45:5
I am the Lord and there is no other;
there is no God besides Me.
I strengthen you,
though you have not known Me,
6 so that they may know from the rising of the sun
and from the west
that there is no one besides Me.
I am the Lord, and there is no other;
7 I form the light and create darkness;
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the Lord, do all these things.

Colossians 1:15
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

This earth is where humans are perfected in Christ. We accept or deny His gift. We chose to submit to His cleansing and washing of our souls. His new white robes that we may stand boldly and unashamed before the throne, clean in Christ.
God created it all, yet He does not support evil in His children. He does not propagate it, "nor tempt any man."
True love requires the ability to chose or reject love.
We journey in this vehicle down our roads. We turn where we please. We stop at different places for necessity and entertainment. We listen to who we want. And we give account for our actions while in this vehicle.
We can't blame God. He is blameless. If we can't accept or understand this, we don't understand Him.

9 Woe to him who strives with his Maker,
the potsherd with the potsherds of the earth!
Shall the clay say to the potter,
“What are you making?”
Or the thing you are making say,
“He has no hands”?
10 Woe to him who says to his father,
“What are you begetting?”
Or to the woman,
“To what are you giving birth?”

Accept His grace and grow in grace. Those who refuse are stunted and destroyed.

 

[AdB]

I really don't understand why some still ask the question.
God is --- God.
There is nothing that exists that He did not create. He created Satan. He created us with a mind, a soul, a body and a spirit.
Our mind, spirit and soul inhabit this nice little vehicle which is a vehicle built for two. Our spirit and His spirit. When we do not ride with Him we have this sense of something missing. A lack of direction. A desire for answers. A longing for home.
Isaiah 45:5
I am the Lord and there is no other;
there is no God besides Me.
I strengthen you,
though you have not known Me,
6 so that they may know from the rising of the sun
and from the west
that there is no one besides Me.
I am the Lord, and there is no other;
7 I form the light and create darkness;
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the Lord, do all these things.

Colossians 1:15
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

This earth is where humans are perfected in Christ. We accept or deny His gift. We chose to submit to His cleansing and washing of our souls. His new white robes that we may stand boldly and unashamed before the throne, clean in Christ.
God created it all, yet He does not support evil in His children. He does not propagate it, "nor tempt any man."
True love requires the ability to chose or reject love.
We journey in this vehicle down our roads. We turn where we please. We stop at different places for necessity and entertainment. We listen to who we want. And we give account for our actions while in this vehicle.
We can't blame God. He is blameless. If we can't accept or understand this, we don't understand Him.

9 Woe to him who strives with his Maker,
the potsherd with the potsherds of the earth!
Shall the clay say to the potter,
“What are you making?”
Or the thing you are making say,
“He has no hands”?
10 Woe to him who says to his father,
“What are you begetting?”
Or to the woman,
“To what are you giving birth?”

Accept His grace and grow in grace. Those who refuse are stunted and destroyed.

Quite an elaborate story, but I take it you agree with my statement?

 

[Niels]

God was probably aware of evil as a consequence of free will when he created the universe. That some of his creations would unfortunately choose to rebel is consistent with a benevolent creator. We aren't automatons. Whose side we are on is a choice that we make in this lifetime. Not that I have a black and white view of free will vs. determinism. Our will is limited by our circumstances to a great extent, but within those circumstances we nevertheless have the freedom to make such a choice.

It's also worth mentioning that this life is temporary. God is eternal, Satan is doomed, and creation is redeemed. To a creator outside of space and time, what we call evil is barely a blip in the grand scheme of things.

 

[AdB]

I agree with how you put it, but you don't address the main point of my post, namely what the origin of evil is...

God was probably aware

Our God is omniscient, definitely He knew exactly what was coming...

Our will is limited by our circumstances to a great extent

People in same circumstances can make totally different choices. It's not so much the circumstances that determine our choices but rather our character and our hearts condition...

To a creator outside of space and time, what we call evil is barely a blip in the grand scheme of things

I don't think evil is just a "blip" in God's mind...

 

[Niels]

I agree with how you put it, but you don't address the main point of my post, namely what the origin of evil is...

The origin of evil is a kind of pride. When creation thinks that it rivals the creator. We see this in the story of Satan and in the evil actions of people to this day. By becoming their own gods, by thinking that they know better than God and committing genocide for visions of utopia, etc.

Our God is omniscient, definitely He knew exactly what was coming...

God is omniscient in the sense that all is created with his knowledge but we are not automatons. I suspect that he wants us to choose him of our own accord. His kind of love is chosen rather than forced.

I do not make the assumption that God's foreknowledge precludes our free will.

People in same circumstances can make totally different choices. It's not so much the circumstances that determine our choices but rather our character and our hearts condition...

Agreed.

I don't think evil is just a "blip" in God's mind...

The evil that we face in this lifetime is profound but it is limited. Jesus' sacrifice was not in vain. Do you think that evil will endure forever? If so, which Biblical passages support that position? God is the eternal creator and he is holy. Satan doesn't actually rival God. Nor do evil men. The deceiver may be powerful within this world but this world is finite. It has a beginning and an end. If God is holy and eternal then the evil that we experience here pales in comparison to God's greatness.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I'm asked the following question regularly...

"How can God be both all-good and the creator of everything when He has also created the evil things of this world?
And if He didn't create the evil things of this world then He is not the creator of everything..."

I always answer this by asking these questions:
"What is darkness? What is cold?"

I will then present the answers as:
"Darkness is the ABSENCE of light, and cold is the ABSENCE of heat"
So darkness and cold aren't actual things in themselves, they are merely the name we give the ABSENCE of something...

And then I will answer the initial question:
"Evil is the ABSENCE of goodness..."

So God didn't CREATE evil, He only creates good things.
But where His goodness is rejected an ABSENCE of goodness is created, and the ABSENCE of goodness is called evil...

I would like to know your thoughts about this...

The trick here is to disambiguate the conflated usage of the term "everything," which in its intended context in relation to God as Creator should only be seen to be referring to every NATURAL PHYSICAL THING, not every human idea or concept that a human mind can imagine.

We need to be clear on our intended references and meanings. Otherwise, like so many people do, we'd just be speaking out of our asses when referring to "what God hath made." And frankly, I'm tired of hearing people make this erroneous inference about God and evil.

 

[AdB]

The origin of evil is a kind of pride. When creation thinks that it rivals the creator. We see this in the story of Satan and in the evil actions of people to this day. By becoming their own gods, by thinking that they know better than God and committing genocide for visions of utopia, etc.

So indeed, evil is basically the state where God is denied?

God is omniscient in the sense that all is created with his knowledge but we are not automatons. I suspect that he wants us to choose him of our own accord. His kind of love is chosen rather than forced.

I do not make the assumption that God's foreknowledge precludes our free will.

God didn't dictate our choices, but He knew what our choices would be before we made them...

The evil that we face in this lifetime is profound but it is limited. Jesus' sacrifice was not in vain. Do you think that evil will endure forever? If so, which Biblical passages support that position? God is the eternal creator and he is holy. Satan doesn't actually rival God. Nor do evil men. The deceiver may be powerful within this world but this world is finite. It has a beginning and an end. If God is holy and eternal then the evil that we experience here pales in comparison to God's greatness.

If evil is the denial of God, and the lost and demons spend eternity in hell, then technically evil will exist for eternity, but it will be fully contained and thereby completely passified.