Did God create evil?

DrBubbaLove · Oct 30, 2015

Jaxxi said:
Though Gnostic in nature the first thoughtin three forms tells us that evil was in existence when God came to be

elaborate or rephrase as I both/either do not understand or am missing the connection of this statement as a reply to my post.

Yeshuas_My_Freedom · Oct 30, 2015

DrBubbaLove said:
Again, if evil is viewed properly as what it is, God only made it one potential outcome in this reality by making creatures that were free to Love Him or not. The fact many Love Him (angels) without evil demonstrates this concept - they did not have to choose to bring evil into this reality - but some did.

It's dualism.

jugghead · Oct 30, 2015

DrBubbaLove said:
God did not need evil to be part of this creation to prove His Love. In fact He Loves the angels and most of them never rebelled, so obviously evil is not necessary to "prove" God's Love or to "prove" Good exists.

How did He prove to the angels that He loved them?

ewq1938 · Oct 30, 2015

jerry kelso said:
colter,

1. The scripture that says God created evil means calamity.

No, The Hebrew word Ra is written in the masculine form which means EVIL. Only the feminine form can mean calamity. People with no education on Hebrew grammar cannot speak accurately on this issue.

DrBubbaLove · Oct 30, 2015

jugghead said:
How did He prove to the angels that He loved them?

No angel myself, but as those who freely chose to not rebel indicate, by creating them to share in His Eternal Happiness without forcing them to return the Love such a free gift represents; as well sharing with them His Honor, Glory and Dignity by making them to be His personal assistants/agents.

DrBubbaLove · Oct 30, 2015

Yeshuas_My_Freedom said:
It's dualism.

If by dualism, one means that I was expressing two equally opposed forces, one good and the other evil, then NO that is not the proper concept I was expressing or the traditional orthodox view of good/evil or angels. The devil leads a band of fallen angels, but his power (while great) is limited. So there is expressed in the Creation stories the idea of a principle of evil, which has declared war against Good and we call him Satan; but it would be incorrect to view him (or evil) as being a force able to oppose God or existing external to creation - meaning God made Satan and those fallen angels too. Just like Adam was perfect before he rebelled against Good, so was Satan perfect before he rebelled and led other angels to rebel. He is also depicted as clearly jealous of how God had made Adam - the human dignity God gave us (in His Image)- only slightly lower than the angels (which Satan is one). And it was the same pride that led Satan to rebel in the first place which leads him to attempt to spoil Adam - mankind.

So even with Satan and just like all the other created angels, God only made it possible for him to sin - so evil was a potential - not a certainty - even with Satan. We could admit that certainly God knew that would happen and also knew what He would do about it. So the idea that evil was only potential - does not negate God's certain knowledge of each such contingency.

Yeshuas_My_Freedom · Oct 30, 2015

I was simplifying my perspective in two words: It's dualism.

Gnostic Guy · Oct 30, 2015

If I may be so bold to propose this, but if god is truly perfect, then would he not transcend our understanding? In my opinion, it did create evil by allowing evil to come into existence, but at the same time a perfect being is everything and has all qualities and transcends them therefore, by these statements God is evil and has always been but at the same time transcends it. Thus if God always has been evil, he technically created it as well. This is my opinion, so after reading this, tell me yours.

ScottA · Oct 30, 2015

DrBubbaLove said:
Hillsage, 2knowhim and others in defense of Universal Reconciliation (UR), have argued that God created evil.

I have defended the traditional orthodox view that God is All Good and maintain that one cannot say that God is All Good and believe He creates the opposite. Certainly evil is a part of our reality, but it directly caused by the acts of God's creatures rather than God Himself. The only thing one can say God did in that regard is to give those creatures (angels and us) the freedom to love Him or not. It would be the not loving All Good which brings evil from purely a potential to reality.

People are soooo self-centered!

Saying God created evil, would be like saying that Walt Disney created real pants-wearing mice. ... Does no one understand what "created" means?

Oh...and, here's a good one: Does anyone know what "make believe" means?

Answers: 1) Created means: made up. 2) Make believe means: to convince.

Yeshuas_My_Freedom · Oct 31, 2015

People go to war over who's picture of God is superior to everyone elses on the earth.

Yes, I'd say that's self centered.
Why do we think we call ourselves sinners and then pray to stop being who we are? And to the thing we think of as having its ear out at all times eternally for us to speak out. And ask its forgiveness for what we do because we think in all eternity our behaviors, as pre-wired to be human, and knitted together that way in the womb by a power that knew that pattern before it created the universe this world we inhabit came into existence.

Yes, I'd say we're reallllly self-centered.
And , the good news, we have a sense of humor. We even argue as to where we're going, and everyone who isn't us personally, when we're all dead!

Power in the spirit. Attitude extra-terrestrial and post-material.
Now that's just cutely optimistic. Why do we think humans have created 'idols' 'images' since the stone age? We love us!

DrBubbaLove · Oct 31, 2015

Yeshuas_My_Freedom said:
I was simplifying my perspective in two words: It's dualism.

Then my assessment in post #287 was correct. Thanks for clarifying. Hopefully someone holding such views at least does not think the wrong side might win.

Yeshuas_My_Freedom · Oct 31, 2015

Now you're going all subjective.

DrBubbaLove · Oct 31, 2015

Gnostic Guy said:
If I may be so bold to propose this, but if god is truly perfect, then would he not transcend our understanding? In my opinion, it did create evil by allowing evil to come into existence, but at the same time a perfect being is everything and has all qualities and transcends them therefore, by these statements God is evil and has always been but at the same time transcends it. Thus if God always has been evil, he technically created it as well. This is my opinion, so after reading this, tell me yours.

As Plato, a pagan, postulated the concept of a benevolent deity being also evil are not compatible. One or the other not both. So we can have good deities and we can have evil deities. We cannot have a deity that is or does both.

I like craps. Am certain He knows the outcome of every roll, yet He did not/does not fix the game. Could He intervene in a craps game - sure and absolutely. Bear with me as this is new analogy/thought for me and analogies can ONLY go so far - not saying it is perfect but it makes the point.

In craps after a point (good) is established a seven on the next roll represents a bad thing (evil) to most players. Lets say a point has been made and we have only one more role in the history of mankind. It comes up seven (evil). Does the fact we could say He "made" dice, which created a potential for that seven, mean that God created the evil that just occurred?

My point is yes God made everything. He also knows everything that will be. And some things, like that dice roll, He made as outcomes of contingency. Meaning that next role did not HAVE to be a seven. It could have been the result of 30 other possible outcomes producing 11 other totals besides 7 instead. So when God "made" dice that "seven" was only a potential outcome. Meaning it was NOT necessary that the 7 had to be that next roll.
So before that last roll, we can say only that God made "seven" a potential outcome. And after that role, unless we believe God Himself intervened in that contingent outcome for some reason (which He could), we can only say that when He "created" dice He ALLOWED that the "seven" was possible and in this particular case allowed it to occure - rather than MAKING/CREATING/DOING a seven (evil).

Consider for the large part of the angels that the seven (evil) was not a certainty when He made any of them. Evil was not a certainty when He made Satan, the one angel who helped make that seven (evil) a part of our reality. It was a contingency because God made them all free to choose. So it was Satan's actions, not God's that made the seven (evil) real. The fact most angels did not sin proves that act was a choice for all angels. That choice is a two sided dice for every creature that God gave such a choice. In our experience that Gift includes only the angels first and then mankind second. So the outcome of that choice would be already be known to God, but He freely gave it creatures He made to Love Him.

Could He have given us no choice but to Love Him? Sure He could have. But what kind of Love for us would/do we call it where we are forced to return it. What would be the value of forcing someone to love us?

DrBubbaLove · Oct 31, 2015

Yeshuas_My_Freedom said:
Now you're going all subjective.

This is a thread I started to discuss whether Good made evil.

There are more than one concept of dualism - that is an objective fact - not subject to my imagination. I simply asked if given the topic of this thread your prior post could be understood as endorsing the dualism describing, typically equal and opposing forces (good/evil). The reply to that question "I was simplifying my perspective in two words: It's dualism." seems to say yes.

I guess you could say my assessment of that reply being affirmative is subjective, but as it was not denied even in the above response - then that is being evasive about the meaning of the first post in this sequence. In two sentences explain what was expressed here as "dualism", which I obviously endorse no form of btw.

Yeshuas_My_Freedom · Oct 31, 2015

DrBubbaLove said:
This is a thread I started to discuss whether Good made evil.

There are more than one concept of dualism - that is an objective fact - not subject to my imagination. I simply asked if given the topic of this thread your prior post could be understood as endorsing the dualism describing, typically equal and opposing forces (good/evil). The reply to that question "I was simplifying my perspective in two words: It's dualism." seems to say yes.

I guess you could say my assessment of that reply being affirmative is subjective, but as it was not denied even in the above response - then that is being evasive about the meaning of the first post in this sequence. In two sentences explain what was expressed here as "dualism", which I obviously endorse no form of btw.

Thanks.

DrBubbaLove · Oct 31, 2015

Yeshuas_My_Freedom said:
People go to war over who's picture of God is superior to everyone elses on the earth.

Yes, I'd say that's self centered.
Why do we think we call ourselves sinners and then pray to stop being who we are? And to the thing we think of as having its ear out at all times eternally for us to speak out. And ask its forgiveness for what we do because we think in all eternity our behaviors, as pre-wired to be human, and knitted together that way in the womb by a power that knew that pattern before it created the universe this world we inhabit came into existence.

Yes, I'd say we're reallllly self-centered.
And , the good news, we have a sense of humor. We even argue as to where we're going, and everyone who isn't us personally, when we're all dead!

Power in the spirit. Attitude extra-terrestrial and post-material.
Now that's just cutely optimistic. Why do we think humans have created 'idols' 'images' since the stone age? We love us!

Am struggling to see an expression of Christianity in this post. Can we have some help here?

Am also wondering if the earlier reference to "dualism" is expressing in one word the idea Saint Paul expressed as a "war in our members" which he and all the Apostles also acknowledges/taught that "war: is a result of the fall - a choice of Adam's which made that fall possible - AND NOT the way God first made man (the meaning of "Adam")

DrBubbaLove · Oct 31, 2015

Yeshuas_My_Freedom said:
Thanks.

welcome

Yeshuas_My_Freedom · Oct 31, 2015

DrBubbaLove said:
Am struggling to see an expression of Christianity in this post. Can we have some help here?

Am also wondering if the earlier reference to "dualism" is expressing in one word the idea Saint Paul expressed as a "war in our members" which he and all the Apostles also acknowledges/taught that "war: is a result of the fall - a choice of Adam's which made that fall possible - AND NOT the way God first made man (the meaning of "Adam")

I see.
Someone doesn't concur with your point of view and they're then worthy of your judgment as to their relationship with Christ being genuine.
You're making for quite a Bible study in your own right.

DrBubbaLove · Oct 31, 2015

Yeshuas_My_Freedom said:
I see.
Someone doesn't concur with your point of view and they're then worthy of your judgment as to their relationship with Christ being genuine.
You're making for quite a Bible study in your own right.

I see someone is willing to assume something about me that is absolutely unsupported by my quoted post. I don't know you. I see an icon. It says Christian - I make no judgement on any such claim. I said I struggle in seeing Christianity as being expressed in that post and asked for help in letting me see it. While I agree we could look at all religions as a search of God and I certainly think many will be surprised at His response to such efforts as well as His response to people with Catholic icons or even me; I do not see the connection of such a statement to this thread or how it expresses anything in a Christian thread except perhaps the thought that we will all be OK no matter what, which I think is called or is a form of Universalism, a heresy but still a belief held by some Christians today.

We have left talking about did God create evil and went off the reservation to post broad sweeping notions of what mankind collectively is doing in response to God. As the statement is made without quote to any other post in this thread and so without context, how are we to understand it on it's face if not asking for help understanding it. If Univeralism was being expressed then that would be the appropriate Christian response in explaining and to answer my question. And no, holding that belief does not make one not a Christian, it makes the topic part of controversial theology. So thanks for asking me not to judge people while judging me - for further clarification is that what God asked us to do? Do as I say not as I do?

jerry kelso · Oct 31, 2015

ewq1938 said:
No, The Hebrew word Ra is written in the masculine form which means EVIL. Only the feminine form can mean calamity. People with no education on Hebrew grammar cannot speak accurately on this issue.

ewq1938,

1. The Hebrew word Ra means in something bad or good. Today, folks believe that it is something being wicked in itself. James 1:13; Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man; But every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lusts; then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin and sin when it is finished bringeth for the death.

2. These scriptures say that God cannot tempt man with evil and cannot be tempted with evil. If he could he would be responsible for a person sinning and bringing forth death. God is not responsible for our sin, we are which stems from the father of lies Satan.

3. Isaiah 45:7 says I form the light, and create darkness. Form the light is good and creating darkness is due to judgement and this is why Genesis 1 was a recreation of the earth in verse 2 because in verse 1 was a perfect heaven and earth. This was in the beginning and when he created Lucifer and the angels etc. When Romans 9 talks about the Potter and the power over the clay is because God gives mercy and those who deny Mercy receive righteous judgement though it is a bad result for that person. The whole chapter of Israel in Isaiah was to show that God was God and none was above him and that Israel was his elect who had been in sin but for their sakes according to their covenant which was eternal but conditioned on obedience. In verse 17; But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed not confounded world without end.
4. Israel was under a specific blessing and cursing system and God brought nations forth to rule over Israel because of their sin so they would come back to him in obedience and then God would avenge his people for their obedience and God would vindicate them by ridding those who were used in God's plan to free his people for the oppressors wickedness.

5. You may think that you know Hebrew but you definitely don't understand the context which doesn't agree with your hebrew definition of evil. God creating evil according to the context is about calamity and righteous judgement. God creating evil in your definition is the antithesis of God freeing us from wickedness and sin. God never created evil like he did man otherwise he would be evil himself.

6. Lucifer sinned and is called the father of lies because he was the first to lie and he tempts and his whole being is consumed with sin. He is evil and not God. Jerry kelso

Did God create evil?

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