Did God create evil?

[Bevlina]

Yes, that is true, but at what stage of his creation, and what caused Lucifer to turn evil?
That's quite a question which has had me thinking since Casi brought it up.

 

[9Harmony]

...what caused Lucifer to turn evil?
That's quite a question which has had me thinking since Casi brought it up.

Hi Bevlina,

I would venture to say...

Ego.


Just my 2 cents.

Have a great day!

-Amy

 

[Airdude]

Yes, that is true, but at what stage of his creation, and what caused Lucifer to turn evil?
That's quite a question which has had me thinking since Casi brought it up.

That is an age old question and I think we may have to wait until we get to heaven to find out the answer.

 

[sefroth77]

In Islam, Satan or the Devil or Iblis does not cause evil to happen. He may be the tempter, but evil happens because our own soul permits it.

Quran
15:39 (Iblis) said: "O my Lord! because Thou hast put me in the wrong, I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the earth, and I will put them all in the wrong,-
5:40 "Except Thy servants among them, sincere and purified (by Thy Grace)."

35:5 O men! Certainly the promise of God is true. Let not then this present life deceive you, nor let the Chief Deceiver deceive you about God.
35:6 Verily Satan is an enemy to you: so treat him as an enemy. He only invites his adherents, that they may become Companions of the Blazing Fire.

* -Iblis is the angelic name of Satan before he became a fallen angel

Satan (the Chief Deceiver) can only try to deceive us, but it's up to us, due to our freewill, to either fell into his temptation or to reject it. He tries to deceive us by trying to make the good look evil and the evil look good.

Satan is only one of God's creatures like us (in the sense that he is part of creation). He is helpless to do anything, he's not omnipotent. He can only try deceive. It's up to us not to fall into his trap.

Quran 4:79 Whatever good, (O man!) happens to thee, is from God; but whatever evil happens to thee, is from thy (own) soul. and We have sent thee (Muhammad) as an apostle to (instruct) mankind. And enough is God for a witness.

Yeah but u said that its Iblis(Satan) that is tempting humans to commit evil, So the root cause for All Evil is Iblis(Satan), that makes God to also cause indirect evil. Either he allows Iblis to roam or He did a mistake in creating Iblis(satan)

Sorry to say but i'm a Ex-Muslim who is well versed in this subject. I'm not being boastful but i just don't want to kick off another debate on this issue thanks.

Walikum Saalam brother Benmaarof

 

[Cassiopeia]

*MOD HAT ON*


Everyone in this thread is to keep to the topic, and reply to one another in a civilised and well mannered fashion.

The OP had brought forward an excellent question. Therefore, all will refrain from any flames or belitting comments.

People of all faiths are permitted to post their own beliefs. Please continue to do so in harmony and respect.
Thankyou.


*MOD HAT OFF*

Thank you Bevlina, I posted the OP with the intention of hearing from all our varied faiths being represented on the CF. Not just what people think is the correct view but what their faith believes on the subject.

 

[Cassiopeia]

Hi Bevlina,

I would venture to say...

Ego.


Just my 2 cents.

Have a great day!

-Amy

hi Amy, (love your name, I have a sister named amy)

Anyway, I was thinking, YES, Lucifer was jealous was he not? And we know that jealous is an ego based emotion. So I was thinking about your answer and Airdude's and Bevlinas, along with the others...and I think it is a very good answer you and Airdude have given along with Bevlina's question.

So at what point did he fall into rebellious jealousy? One would think being in the presence of God that one would not want to rebel. I have another questions as well, was his decision to defy God the first representation of evil? And can we say that evil is really any emotion that is contrary to the nature of the Divine?

Okay that is two questions.

I don't really agree that God indirectly created evil as I believe we are accountable for what we do. God as was stated, gave us the right to choose, what we do with it is our own decision.

Casi

 

[vipertaja]

Here's my hypothetical view:

Please don't get emotional about this...I'd get killed in medieval times for
saying it. To me the most sensible theistic scenario would be if God and
the devil were one and the same...as to me he seems to act like a human.
I.E. he tends to get angry as easily as people on this forum.
(And wipes out a few tribes or such while at it)

This is just my mental masturbation though...so don't you mind.

 

[Cassiopeia]

Here's my hypothetical view:

Please don't get emotional about this...I'd get killed in medieval times for
saying it. To me the most sensible theistic scenario would be if God and
the devil were one and the same...as to me he seems to act like a human.
I.E. he tends to get angry as easily as people on this forum.
(And wipes out a few tribes or such while at it)

This is just my mental masturbation though...so don't you mind.

I think you have said something that often comes to my mind that people tend to project human emotion onto God. I don't agree with the interpretation of man that says God is a jealous and vengeful God. That has not been my experience.

I can see how you would come to think the way you do if all you are left to is the teachings of man and not personal experience.

Casi (not getting out any devices to torture you like they would have in medievil times)

 

[vipertaja]

I think you have said something that often comes to my mind that people tend to project human emotion onto God. I don't agree with the interpretation of man that says God is a jealous and vengeful God. That has not been my experience.

I can see how you would come to think the way you do if all you are left to is the teachings of man and not personal experience.

Casi (not getting out any devices to torture you like they would have in medievil times)

This would indeed be the other sensible theistic option in my mind.

 

[9Harmony]

hi Amy, (love your name, I have a sister named amy)

Anyway, I was thinking, YES, Lucifer was jealous was he not? And we know that jealous is an ego based emotion. So I was thinking about your answer and Airdude's and Bevlinas, along with the others...and I think it is a very good answer you and Airdude have given along with Bevlina's question.

So at what point did he fall into rebellious jealousy? One would think being in the presence of God that one would not want to rebel. I have another questions as well, was his decision to defy God the first representation of evil? And can we say that evil is really any emotion that is contrary to the nature of the Divine?

Okay that is two questions.

I don't really agree that God indirectly created evil as I believe we are accountable for what we do. God as was stated, gave us the right to choose, what we do with it is our own decision.

Casi

Hi Casi,

Thank you! I really like your name too. I get a sense of peace everytime I see it.

As to your questions, anything we can come up with is simply mere speculation. I have no idea at what point the decision was made to defy God. And I would rather not speculate as it would most likely not be accurate.

In the Baha'i Writings Satan is referred to as the 'evil whisperer', the ego which resides in us all. Which according to my understanding is in line with your statement about any emotion/thought that is contrary to the Divine. We each have the choice how to act or react to these emotions.

This is why we need the education of the prophets and messengers. They lift us up to a higher realm of understanding. If we focus on the things of the earth, we are easily susceptible to living our lives in the material realm, but through the grace of God, he sends us teachers to educate us about the ways of the spirit (our true nature) and lifts us out of the material into the spiritual realm, even while walking upon the earth.

Don't know if that helped or not. sorta got into a ramble. sorry.

Have a great day!

-Amy

 

[Cassiopeia]

Hi Casi,

Thank you! I really like your name too. I get a sense of peace everytime I see it.

awww...you made me cry now ...but happy tears.

As to your questions, anything we can come up with is simply mere speculation. I have no idea at what point the decision was made to defy God. And I would rather not speculate as it would most likely not be accurate.

In the Baha'i Writings Satan is referred to as the 'evil whisperer', the ego which resides in us all. Which according to my understanding is in line with your statement about any emotion/thought that is contrary to the Divine. We each have the choice how to act or react to these emotions.

This is why we need the education of the prophets and messengers. They lift us up to a higher realm of understanding. If we focus on the things of the earth, we are easily susceptible to living our lives in the material realm, but through the grace of God, he sends us teachers to educate us about the ways of the spirit (our true nature) and lifts us out of the material into the spiritual realm, even while walking upon the earth.

Don't know if that helped or not. sorta got into a ramble. sorry.

Have a great day!

-Amy

I have to say that your post is very well thought out. I must say I agree with you. When we get stuck in the things of this world is when I think we are most influenced by Lucifer. Indeed we are fortunate that the Divine has sent us people to help us come out of this world and into the spiritual realm. It makes us better people all around I think. I know today when I was driving down I-215 here in Salt Lake that spiritual realm reminded me that giving someone the finger for almost sending me into a three wheeler was not a good idea and I kept my bad thoughts to myself.

Casi (eeps!!! I just let out that I am so VERY human...bad Casi bad!)

 

[vajradhara]

Namaste Casi,

thank you for the post.

Also, all other faiths, does your religion teach this principle?

my religion doesn't teach this view

however, this is the proper Jewish point of view according to the Torah.

to wit:

NLT - Isa 45:7 -I am the one who creates the light and makes the darkness. I am the one who sends good times and bad times. I, the L[size=-1]ORD[/size], am the one who does these things.
New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust

NKJV - Isa 45:7 -I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.'
New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson

NASB - Isa 45:7 -The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation

RSV - Isa 45:7 -I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the LORD, who do all these things.
Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.

Webster - Isa 45:7 -I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
Noah Webster Version 1833 Info

Young - Isa 45:7 -Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.'
Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info

Darby - Isa 45:7 -forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.
J.N.Darby Translation 1890 Info

ASV - Isa 45:7 -I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.
American Standard Version 1901 Info

HNV - Isa 45:7 -I form the light, and create darkness; I make shalom, and create evil. I am the LORD, who does all these things.
Hebrew Names Version 2000 Info

Vulgate - Isa 45:7 -formans lucem et creans tenebras faciens pacem et creans malum ego Dominus faciens omnia haec
Jerome's Latin Vulgate 405 A.D. Info

 

[urnotme]

Hello there

Thanks for your post, I have been actually wondering if that is what it is. I certainly don't believe that God created it.

Casi

If you believe that God is good how could a good god create something evil or corrupt? Which is why I think there was a span of time between genusis 1:1 and 1:2 but that's a differant subject. Maybe not, when god created the world it was good. Something had to happen to make it bad and so it was with all good. God didn't create bad he created good. It had to be man's choice to turn good into bad. By not doing good man does bad.

 

[Cassiopeia]

If you believe that God is good how could a good god create something evil or corrupt? Which is why I think there was a span of time between genusis 1:1 and 1:2 but that's a differant subject. Maybe not, when god created the world it was good. Something had to happen to make it bad and so it was with all good. God didn't create bad he created good. It had to be man's choice to turn good into bad. By not doing good man does bad.

Yeah I agree and have been saying the same thing for months now but you are new to the CF and woudn't know that.

BTW...

Welcome to the CF

 

[9Harmony]

awww...you made me cry now ...but happy tears.



I have to say that your post is very well thought out. I must say I agree with you. When we get stuck in the things of this world is when I think we are most influenced by Lucifer. Indeed we are fortunate that the Divine has sent us people to help us come out of this world and into the spiritual realm. It makes us better people all around I think. I know today when I was driving down I-215 here in Salt Lake that spiritual realm reminded me that giving someone the finger for almost sending me into a three wheeler was not a good idea and I kept my bad thoughts to myself.

Casi (eeps!!! I just let out that I am so VERY human...bad Casi bad!)

((((Casi)))))

i didn't mean to make you cry. (but thanks, that gives me an idea for a thread.)

We are all only human, struggling to find our way.

It was a great thing, what you did (didn't) do. If I was a betting person, I would be willing to bet that if in the same situation a year or two ago, you may not have thought twice about it. It's progress. Your higher nature won. We are all faced with these little personal battles on a daily basis, sometime we win, sometimes we lose, and I would also be willing to bet that had you lost, you would have felt bad about it.

Hey! You just helped me understand a concept of my own faith a little better. It says in our Writings that in the future, when the Kingdom of God is established on earth, something to the effect that the crime will be it's own punishment. I've always kind of wondered what that meant, but something just clicked.

In my own experience, years ago when I wasn't really concerned with spiritual matters, it used to be that if i did something that i knew was wrong, i was able to just brush if off, find excuses, and go along as if nothing happened. But the other day, i said something to someone, which the moment I said it, I knew it was wrong (i blurted it in a moment of excitement), and immediately, I felt this terrible remorse for possibly hurting this person. I did apologize, but the remorse is still with me. It is actually worse than any punishment anyone could dish out to me. I would rather be punished externally. It is pure hell, to think I've hurt another soul.

Perhaps this is what is meant by that statement. In my case the crime of hurting another soul, is it's own punishment.

I think as more and more people become aware of our true nature, our spiritual self, that we are spiritual beings having a human experience. We will really understand that our words and actions have consequences, not only to others but to ourselves as well. Not our physical selves, but our spiritual selves, our eternal selves. And when mankind reaches that level of consciousness, we will witness the establishment of Heaven on earth.

uh oh, i rambled again.

anyway, thanks for helping me with that.

Have a wonderful evening!

-Amy

 

[Cassiopeia]

((((Casi)))))

i didn't mean to make you cry. (but thanks, that gives me an idea for a thread.)

We are all only human, struggling to find our way.

It was a great thing, what you did (didn't) do. If I was a betting person, I would be willing to bet that if in the same situation a year or two ago, you may not have thought twice about it. It's progress. Your higher nature won. We are all faced with these little personal battles on a daily basis, sometime we win, sometimes we lose, and I would also be willing to bet that had you lost, you would have felt bad about it.

well a few years back it wouldn't have even crossed my mind. Which is sad really but yeah I always feel a little bad when I lose a battle with myself and what I feel is right.

Hey! You just helped me understand a concept of my own faith a little better. It says in our Writings that in the future, when the Kingdom of God is established on earth, something to the effect that the crime will be it's own punishment. I've always kind of wondered what that meant, but something just clicked.

In my own experience, years ago when I wasn't really concerned with spiritual matters, it used to be that if i did something that i knew was wrong, i was able to just brush if off, find excuses, and go along as if nothing happened. But the other day, i said something to someone, which the moment I said it, I knew it was wrong (i blurted it in a moment of excitement), and immediately, I felt this terrible remorse for possibly hurting this person. I did apologize, but the remorse is still with me. It is actually worse than any punishment anyone could dish out to me. I would rather be punished externally. It is pure hell, to think I've hurt another soul.

Perhaps this is what is meant by that statement. In my case the crime of hurting another soul, is it's own punishment.

I think as more and more people become aware of our true nature, our spiritual self, that we are spiritual beings having a human experience. We will really understand that our words and actions have consequences, not only to others but to ourselves as well. Not our physical selves, but our spiritual selves, our eternal selves. And when mankind reaches that level of consciousness, we will witness the establishment of Heaven on earth.

uh oh, i rambled again.

anyway, thanks for helping me with that.

Have a wonderful evening!

-Amy

I think what people like to blame here on God as "the wrath of God" is really the natural consequences of our actions. I think we pretty much create the cause and effect thing ourselves. If you are rude and nasty to your neighbor while they may not retaliate, they will not consider you a friend perhaps and limit their exposure to you and they could really be great people. Or if you cheat on your taxes...one day...mr. IRS will come knocking on your door and the penalties and late fees are HORRENDOUS! I don't believe that God takes our loved ones away from us or punishes us. I think the Divine waits for us to come to him and then he supports us and answers us. Sometimes the kindest answers I have gotten to prayer have been no. Being so very human I don't always have the big picture in mind nor do I know what is always best for me.

Casi (so very grateful for a loving Father)

 

[ravenscape]

<snip>

I think as more and more people become aware of our true nature, our spiritual self, that we are spiritual beings having a human experience. We will really understand that our words and actions have consequences, not only to others but to ourselves as well. Not our physical selves, but our spiritual selves, our eternal selves. And when mankind reaches that level of consciousness, we will witness the establishment of Heaven on earth.

Wow, that was amazing to read here. Spiritual beings in the material realm is exactly what we are. The human experience is sweet, poignant, painful, funny, and so much more. But in the end the human experience doesn't define us. We are more than that. Much more.

BB!

 

[urnotme]

Yeah I agree and have been saying the same thing for months now but you are new to the CF and woudn't know that.

BTW...

Welcome to the CF

Thank you but I'm really not new, I just reregistered because I changed internet providers and email addresses and I wanted to receive mail in my inbox. I have debated that god didn't create evil on another message board and if we really have free will but I doubt it did much good. To me it doesn't make sense for good to create the opposite of good which is evil. That's like saying God created sin. God created man who sinned, I think that's why God is said to have created evil, but people want to blame god for their problems so they say god created evil and all the wars etc. are god's will because he knew they were going to happen and he didn't do anything to stop them.

 

[urnotme]

They were some of the Fallen Angels who followed Lucifer Casi. Lucifer was a created being the same as his confederates. Gahhhhhh ... where's my Bible!
Got it. Genesis 6.2

Genesis 6

6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

From thereon, you will see that there was evil on the earth.

I think it began with the fall of lucifer, reallly before the fall when the thought entered into his mind. Evil is the absence if good and like you say it's like a vacuum, a non entity if you will. Kind of like a negative number.

 

[Bevlina]

This thread has become very interesting! But, I'm still trying to work out just HOW evil began in the spiritual realm.