Did Gnosticism Influence Islam?

[smaneck]

I never heard of him...had to do the google to find out who he was. Though versed in Sufism, it seems that Ibn Taymiyyah didn't care much for the Rifai Sufi Order of which I believe Hasan al-Basra belonged to. I'm not sure about that though.

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Hasan al-Basra is often considered the first Sufi, although the isnads of most Sufi Orders go back to Ali.

 

[dlamberth]

Hasan al-Basra is often considered the first Sufi, although the isnads of most Sufi Orders go back to Ali.

It's Ali whom I trace to as the first Sufi. I've never heard of Hasan al-Basra. Thanks for bringing him up. I'm now reading about him.

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[smaneck]

It's Ali whom I trace to as the first Sufi. I've never heard of Hasan al-Basra. Thanks for bringing him up. I'm now reading about him.

The earliest form of mysticism in both Christianity and Islam was penitential mysticism. This kind of spirituality stresses turning away from ones sins and turning towards God. The Desert Fathers in Christianity practiced this form of mysticism and one still sees it in some of St. Ignatius Loyola's exercises.

It was only about fifty years later that we see the high-love mysticism arise in Islam (in Christianity this is called Bridal Mysticism) with figures like Rabi'a. Although they were from the same town, they were not contemporaries but that didn't stop hagiographers like Attar from describing meetings between them. One story goes that Rabi'a came across Hasan al-Basra while he was weeping and wailing over his sins saying what a wretched man he was. Rabi'a answered, "You know, you're right. Because had you truly repented and turned toward God, you would only see God and not your own sinfulness."

And that is your bedtime story for the night.

 

[Aristocles X]

after Siyyid al-Qutb,

You should meet the Madkhali Salafis. I think you would get along with them on thiis . However Sayyid Qutb is loved by the Rawafid, on of the reasons was his attacks on Imam Mu3wiyya (as) which i heard some bahai consider him the beast of revelation. He also wrote on wahdat ul wujood. Puzzled why his theology bothered you. Maybe it was the political part.

However, what he seems to be describing is the penitential mysticism of Hasan al-Basra.

Even if it was ghulu in zuhd it was what the earliest Muslims understood as sufism. However in this context we spoke of monasticism.

I think when most of us thinking of Sufism we think of the high-love mysticism of Rabi''a and Rumi.

Not the Ibn Arabi kind of sufism ? I think some bahai consider him the greatest mystic and philosopher.

 

[steve_bakr]

The earliest form of mysticism in both Christianity and Islam was penitential mysticism. This kind of spirituality stresses turning away from ones sins and turning towards God. The Desert Fathers in Christianity practiced this form of mysticism and one still sees it in some of St. Ignatius Loyola's exercises.

It was only about fifty years later that we see the high-love mysticism arise in Islam (in Christianity this is called Bridal Mysticism) with figures like Rabi'a. Although they were from the same town, they were not contemporaries but that didn't stop hagiographers like Attar from describing meetings between them. One story goes that Rabi'a came across Hasan al-Basra while he was weeping and wailing over his sins saying what a wretched man he was. Rabi'a answered, "You know, you're right. Because had you truly repented and turned toward God, you would only see God and not your own sinfulness."

And that is your bedtime story for the night.

Thank you for your posts, and for reminding me of my own reading in Islamic mysticism years ago. Rabi'a was one of my favorite mystics. Is she the mystic to which is attributed the following? (which is loosely paraphrased)

"Allah, if I desire you for the joys of Paradise, then don't let me into Paradise;

If I desire you in order to escape Hell, then send me to Hell;

But if I desire you for Yourself alone, then please grant me my desire and Thy Blessings."

Another question: to whom is attributed the following prayer?

"Lord, please save all your creatures and send me alone to Hell."

When I read about some of the Islamic mystics, I remember thinking that they put so much of modern Christianity to shame, because it sometimes seems to put the desire for heavenly pleasures or the fear of hell above the desire for God; and similarly the salvation of the individual above the salvation of humanity as a whole.

 

[dlamberth]

When I read about some of the Islamic mystics, I remember thinking that they put so much of modern Christianity to shame, because it sometimes seems to put the desire for heavenly pleasures or the fear of hell above the desire for God; and similarly the salvation of the individual above the salvation of humanity as a whole.

When reading about some of the Christian mystics, I often think the same about them as well.

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[smaneck]

You should meet the Madkhali Salafis. I think you would get along with them on thiis .

I just found there website. Calling Sayyid al-Qutb a Leninist is a tad over the top don't you think? Let's just say we agree that Sayyid al-Qutb, Mawdudi, along with al-Qa'ida, etc. are Neo-Kharijites though as far as i know there are no historical connections between them and the Kharijites.

However Sayyid Qutb is loved by the Rawafid, on of the reasons was his attacks on Imam Mu3wiyya (as) which i heard some bahai consider him the beast of revelation.

I hardly think that would be enough for a Shi'ite to make common cause with him! Who, after all, really likes Muawiyyih? As for his being the Beast of Revelation, my recollection is that Abdu'l-Baha applies this to the Umayyyads as a whole, not a specific individual.

I do understand that Sayyid al-Qutb did attempt to establish relations with Ayatollah Kashani back in the fifties. I don't know if Kashani responded favorably, but I wouldn't put it past him. Kashani did whatever was expedient, first supporting Mossadeq against the Shah, then working with the CIA and the British to get rid of him! Kashani, along with Falsafi led the persecution against Baha'is in the 1950's.

He also wrote on wahdat ul wujood.

Positively or negatively?

Puzzled why his theology bothered you. Maybe it was the political part.

Isn't that the main part?

Not the Ibn Arabi kind of sufism ? I think some bahai consider him the greatest mystic and philosopher.

Most Persian Baha'is I know would assign Rumi that station. As for western Baha'is, these are mostly just names to them. As for philosophy, many of them (again, Persian Baha'is or Baha'is academics) are attracted to thinking of the Ishraqiyyun school, although I wrote a major paper discussing the distinction between Baha'u'llah's thought and Ishraqi philosophy. Personally, I find Ibn Arabi's theosophy gets to close to pantheism for my comfort. I have the same problem with the sacramental mysticism of Meister Eckhart.

 

[smaneck]

Thank you for your posts, and for reminding me of my own reading in Islamic mysticism years ago. Rabi'a was one of my favorite mystics. Is she the mystic to which is attributed the following? (which is loosely paraphrased)

Indeed. I've posted a slightly different translation of her poem here a number of times, whenever Christians start selling fire insurance.

When I read about some of the Islamic mystics, I remember thinking that they put so much of modern Christianity to shame, because it sometimes seems to put the desire for heavenly pleasures or the fear of hell above the desire for God; and similarly the salvation of the individual above the salvation of humanity as a whole.

Exactly. If I had been seeking individual salvation I would have remained a Christian. I became a Baha'i because I wanted to save the world.

 

[Chesterton]

The monks spend their time praying for the world. And may I remind you of the preeminent Christian prayer (I've underlined the pronouns, all of which are plural). You don't find the word "I" in it:

OUR Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth, as it is in heaven. Give US this day OUR daily bread, and forgive US OUR debts, as WE also have forgiven OUR debtors. And lead US not into temptation, but deliver US from evil...

 

[smaneck]

I never heard of him...had to do the google to find out who he was. Though versed in Sufism, it seems that Ibn Taymiyyah didn't care much for the Rifai Sufi Order of which I believe Hasan al-Basra belonged to. I'm not sure about that though.

.

Ibn Taymiyyah didn't like al-Ghazzali either, who among Sunnis is my favorite theologian. In fact he used to send his students to riot against al-Ghazzali supporters. He is the darling of Wahhabis and Salafis.

 

[smaneck]

The monks spend their time praying for the world. And may I remind you of the preeminent Christian prayer (I've underlined the pronouns, all of which are plural). You don't find the word "I" in it:

OUR Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth, as it is in heaven. Give US this day OUR daily bread, and forgive US OUR debts, as WE also have forgiven OUR debtors. And lead US not into temptation, but deliver US from evil...

It is because of that prayer that I eventually became a Baha'i. Most American Evangelical Christians think they are going to be raptured into heaven while the world becomes toast.

 

[Dialogues]

Jesus was the only one they had dealt with.
the one who knows the laws of eyes so well.. He spits and makes eyes with mud ,
just like he did on the first 6th day..
no Allah never did that , no prophet of allah ever did that .
He may have poked millions of eyes out ,
or people in his name sure did it..
...

Please explain the following Biblical passages:

Now go and smite (Kill) Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling (babes), ox and sheep, camel and ass." (I Samuel 15:2-3)

Jesus said: [LUKE 19:27] But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.


There are plenty more where those came from.

Peace.

 

[Dialogues]

Many of the stories about Jesus in the Quran come from Gnosticism. Gnostics believed that Jesus was not crucified and what the people saw was simply an illusion. The Quran says that Jesus was not killed or crucified but Allah made it appear like he was.

The Qur'an does not say that Allah made it to appear like he was crucified, but it says: so it was made to appear to them.

It was the drink which he was given on the cross immediately finishing which his head bowed because it was drugged with opium. He appeared to have died, but he only fainted on the cross.

The Qur'an says Allah is the best of planners; it does not mean deceivers. Only the enemies of Islam intending to deceive others translate the word to mean deceiver.

And Christ did not actually rise from the dead, but only metaphorically so, because he was presumed dead, and fainted, and sleep is a form of death. As Jesus said about Lazarus, his illness was not until death, but he was only asleep. Likewise with Jesus.

Peace.

 

[Aristocles X]

just a side note dialogue is an qadiani ahmadi and rhey have a different take on isa than ahlu sunnah

 

[Rationalt]

Here are some views of prominent sufi Al-ghazali.

On jihad by Al-Ghazali from his work I didn't actually read the book but collected quotes from authentic sources-link)

one must go on jihad (i.e., warlike razzias or raids) at least once a year...one may use a catapult against them [non-Muslims] when they are in a fortress, even if among them are women and children. One may set fire to them and/or drown them...If a person of the Ahl al-Kitab [People of The Book – Jews and Christians, typically] is enslaved, his marriage is [automatically] revoked…One may cut down their trees...One must destroy their useless books. Jihadists may take as booty whatever they decide...they may steal as much food as they need...

…the dhimmi is obliged not to mention Allah or His Apostle…Jews, Christians, and Majians must pay the jizya [poll tax on non-Muslims]…on offering up the jizya, the dhimmi must hang his head while the official takes hold of his beard and hits [the dhimmi] on the protruberant bone beneath his ear [i.e., the mandible]… They are not permitted to ostentatiously display their wine or church bells…their houses may not be higher than the Muslim’s, no matter how low that is. The dhimmi may not ride an elegant horse or mule; he may ride a donkey only if the saddle[-work] is of wood. He may not walk on the good part of the road. They [the dhimmis] have to wear [an identifying] patch [on their clothing], even women, and even in the [public] baths…[dhimmis] must hold their tongue…. 4 (Emphasis added.)