Did Christ have to die?

[RC_NewProtestants]

Well I guess it won't work then, a new start is not found in coming in expecting to have to defend yourself from being a punching bag. That is allowing the previous baggage to color your interpretations of what people say to you.

 

[woobadooba]

Well I guess it won't work then, a new start is not found in coming in expecting to have to defend yourself from being a punching bag. That is allowing the previous baggage to color your interpretations of what people say to you.

I am well capable of discussing things in a civil manner with people that do not agree with me. If you don't believe this you could just take a look at my current discussion with Tall73.

By the way, the report option exists for good reason. It's not a bad thing to report serial rule-violators; but allowing them to continue in their bad behavior with impunity is bad for forum morale and counter-productive to good discussion.

 

[sentipente]

When Jesus said in his prayer found in John 17 that he had completed the work he was sent to do, in my mind that would suggest that he did not necessarily have to die..... likewise isn't the idea of a sacrifice for sin a common theme among many religions?

The amount of twisting that must be done to come to any other conclusion makes it difficult to find a dedication to truth in such a process.

 

[tall73]

Reading for now. Might comment later.

 

[JonMiller]

bump

JM

 

[Endium]

Jesus most certainly had to die for us. While it seems right to think that God is so loving that He would forgive us whether Christ died or not, it's not true. God is definitely loving, and He will do all that is possible to save us (isaiah 5:4), but we cannot misunderstand God's justice. God's kingdom is based on justice, and if God were to forgive us without any penalty being made, He would have no basis for His government. It would also imply that Satan is right in his accusation that God's Law is impossible to be kept.

Jesus did many things while here on earth, but His death was in no way negligible, or unnecessary. Justification in the Bible is described as something done through Jesus' blood. (like in romans 5:9). If we were really saved solely on the basis on God's love, just what would Jesus' blood have to do with justification anyway?

Life is in the blood (lev. 17:11) and without the shedding of blood there is no remission (heb. 9:22). Thus, without the sacrifice of life, there is no forgiveness of sin.

God became human to destroy the devil through His death
[BIBLE]Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil.[/BIBLE] Hebrews 2:14

The reason He came, or appeared, was to sacrifice Himself.
[BIBLE]but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself[/BIBLE] Heb 9:26

[BIBLE]The Lord is slow to anger and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked.[/BIBLE] nahum 1:3

[BIBLE]For the wages of sin is death[/BIBLE]ROmans 6:23

 

[Cribstyl]

Jesus most certainly had to die for us. While it seems right to think that God is so loving that He would forgive us whether Christ died or not, it's not true. God is definitely loving, and He will do all that is possible to save us (isaiah 5:4), but we cannot misunderstand God's justice. God's kingdom is based on justice, and if God were to forgive us without any penalty being made, He would have no basis for His government. It would also imply that Satan is right in his accusation that God's Law is impossible to be kept.

Jesus did many things while here on earth, but His death was in no way negligible, or unnecessary. Justification in the Bible is described as something done through Jesus' blood. (like in romans 5:9). If we were really saved solely on the basis on God's love, just what would Jesus' blood have to do with justification anyway?

Life is in the blood (lev. 17:11) and without the shedding of blood there is no remission (heb. 9:22). Thus, without the sacrifice of life, there is no forgiveness of sin.

God became human to destroy the devil through His death
[bible]Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil.[/bible] Hebrews 2:14

The reason He came, or appeared, was to sacrifice Himself.
[bible]but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself[/bible] Heb 9:26

[bible]The Lord is slow to anger and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked.[/bible] nahum 1:3

[bible]For the wages of sin is death[/bible]ROmans 6:23

This is CRIBSTYL and I approve of this message

God Bless

CRIB

 

[sentipente]

I wish my friends would carefully study the history of the human race instead of just glancing at snapshots. That would prevent them from holding to views that so plainly contradict what the Bible teaches. Endium's post contradicts Paul's accurate representation that the human race was deceived and did not rebel.

 

[Cribstyl]

I wish my friends would carefully study the history of the human race instead of just glancing at snapshots. That would prevent them from holding to views that so plainly contradict what the Bible teaches. Endium's post contradicts Paul's accurate representation that the human race was deceived and did not rebel.

History according to who????
Snapshots??? Is that what Genesis account of Adam and Eve called now???
History according to Paul can be read in Roman......

Paul's letters teach about man original sin is based on the acts of man and not satan the deciever as EGW teaches.

If God tells you, "dont eat from that tree or you will die."
saying...I was decieved", "The devil made me do it" are excuses. You're going to die because God cannot lie.

Text prove you wrong and Endium right... or post you proof..Rom 1:18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 1:21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

 

[sentipente]

What was that supposed to be, Crib? Please show how the human race could be saved if Adam and Eve had not been deceived? You can reference the story of Lucifer to aid you.

 

[StormyOne]

again to revisit this issue... if Jesus prayed that he had completed his work and that he wanted his followers to be one, then did He "have to" die?

 

[BGMCFAR]

For God sent his Son into the world not to condenm the world, But that the world through Jesus might be saved John 3:17 not because of hostility toward God.

 

[Endium]

again to revisit this issue... if Jesus prayed that he had completed his work and that he wanted his followers to be one, then did He "have to" die?

I assume the prayer you are talking about is John 17? Specifically, verse 4: "I have glorified Yo on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do."

When Jesus prayed here, He was so close to the end that He prayed as if it was all already done. In other words, when Jesus said that He had completed the work, He wasn't saying that at that point in time it was all done. His death was a specific part of the mission He came for, and was required. It's not uncommon for people to speak of future events as though they were already done, especially when you are 100% that it will come to pass.

Further proof that this is how Jesus was speaking can be seen in verses 11 and 12. Jesus says "Now I am no longer in the world," and "While I was with them in the world." Obviously Jesus was still there in the world at that point.

So if Jesus decided to call the death thing off, would we still be able to be saved? No, because He then wouldn't have completed His mission. Christ came to reconcile us to God. Why? Because of sin. The penalty for sin is death, so the only way for us to reconciled to God is for the penalty to be paid. It is only by His death that we are reconciled to God.

"Much more then, having now been justified by Hs blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." Romans 5:9-10

So if Christ had not died, whose blood would have reconciled us to God?

 

[Adventtruth]

again to revisit this issue... if Jesus prayed that he had completed his work and that he wanted his followers to be one, then did He "have to" die?

Ofcourse He had to die. God decreed:

1) it had to be by death

2) It had to be spotless

3) It had to be God.

(Php 2:5) For, let this mind be in you that is also in Christ Jesus,
(Php 2:6) who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God,
(Php 2:7) but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,
(Php 2:8) and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death--death even of a cross, (YLT)


AT

 

[Cribstyl]

What was that supposed to be, Crib?

You said.....
"Endium's post contradicts Paul's accurate representation that the human race was deceived and did not rebel."

So I understood you as saying that they were deceived rather than they rebelled against God's commandment.

Please show how the human race could be saved if Adam and Eve had not been deceived?
You can reference the story of Lucifer to aid you.

I'm confused.......... I'm saying they rebelled. What are you saying?
I posted my reference texts . It's first explains that man was created in the image of God (glory of God) and degenerated to corruptability.
Paul keeps his written words on man's rebellion rather than the one who lies and deceives.


Rom 1:22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Endium post was about why Christ had to die, In hindsight there are some issue I would debate but, I'm looking for common ground. So I believe he had a lot if good points.

I dont know if we're in agreement or not, but I side with what I read in the bible.

The word of God focuses on God and man.

The fact is, the woman was decieved but the man rebelled against God.



2Cr 11:3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

1Ti 2:14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

In friendship, fellowship and love

CRIB