Did Christ at the cross end all the laws?

Christopher0121 · Apr 15, 2022

The Law of Moses demands that women are unclean when menstruating. They were forbidden to attend worship, couldn't be touched, and even the furniture they sat on was unclean. Women aren't even permitted to sleep in the same bed as their husbands while menstruating according to the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses even condemned wearing polyblend fabrics and condemned women for wearing crotch knitted pantaloons, as it is an "abomination" (this is why Orthodox Jewish women never wear pants). Men were forbidden to shave their beards and side burns. lol

Those who argue we are still under the Law of Moses would actually be the WORST violators in most cases.

But... if we agree that the Law of Moses ended at the cross... all these carnal laws go away and we are only left with the Law of God... the 10 Commandments. And Jesus and Paul emphasized that we fulfill the Law of God through Love.

Christopher0121 · Apr 15, 2022

It's so important to emphasize that the Law of God (the Ten Commandments) still exist to condemn sin. Sinners are condemned under the Law of God.

Believers are bound by the Law of Christ, which teaches that we obey the Law of God out of LOVE not performance. So, if you find yourself speaking evil against your parents, the solution is learning to LOVE them more. If you steal, learn to LOVE those who might have more than you and cease coveting you'll cease stealing. If you're committing fornication or adultery... learn to love God, yourself, others, and your spouse (or future spouse) more. The key to overcoming sin and obeying God's Law (the 10 Commandments) is now... LOVE.

Guojing · Apr 15, 2022

Leaf473 said:
I don't think Acts 21 states that "for True Israel, no law ended at the cross", that's why I was asking what your views were on the subject.

So you need that explicit statement to be made in Acts 21:18-25 before you will believe that.

This is despite James and the elders telling Paul

-Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are ALL zealous of the law:

Notice James telling him every Jewish believer (ALL) is zealous for the Law? He didn't add, "despite anyone of us telling them No no no, you should not be because some/all of the Law ended for us at the cross".

- all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

Notice they tell Paul to keep the Law so that ALL of them will know that Paul also keep the Law?

If any law ended at the cross, these statements would be contradictory.

Guojing · Apr 15, 2022

myst33 said:
Even James did not claim that the Mosaic Law applies to Christians from Gentiles (i.e. you).

As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.”
Acts 21:25

He only cared that Paul demonstrated to ethnical Jews that he still keep the law. Which lead to his arrest and death, by the way. So obviously a bad advice. I wonder if James regretted it.

I never said the Law applied to the Body of Christ in the first place.

Guojing · Apr 15, 2022

expos4ever said:
The obvious answer: James was mistaken in his belief about the Law.

Again, the fact that scriptures tells us what certain people believed does not mean that what they believed is correct.

I am not saying this text proves that James was wrong; I am merely pointing out that the fact that James (and others) believed something does not make that belief true.

Furthermore, if the Law did come to an end, it is exceedingly easy to imagine that Jews, steeped in centuries of fierce allegiance to the Law, would resist.

Yes, the other popular doctrine people use to reconcile these passages is that James was totally mistaken.

trophy33 · Apr 16, 2022

Guojing said:
I never said the Law applied to the Body of Christ in the first place.

Some people here say so and argument by James.

So its good to note that even James did not claim that the Mosaic Law is for Christians from Gentiles.

trophy33 · Apr 16, 2022

Guojing said:
Yes, the other popular doctrine people use to reconcile these passages is that James was totally mistaken.

He clearly was one for the Law and for the keeping of old habits, between apostles.

Thats why his name is being brought up in these discussions, not of Peter, not of Tadeas not of John, not of Simon, not of Philip, not of Thomas, not of Jude etc.

For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel...
Gal 2:12-14

Guojing · Apr 16, 2022

myst33 said:
Some people here say so and argument by James.

So its good to note that even James did not claim that the Mosaic Law is for Christians from Gentiles.

It was already established by James in Acts 15:19, and the Acts 21:18-25 clarified that, during the Jerusalem Council, only the gentiles who believed are to be excused from the Law of Moses.

The issue on whether Jews who believed, True Israel as I have stated, needed to keep the Law of Moses, was not even on the agenda then during Acts 15. It is understood that they still need to be zealous of the Law.

trophy33 · Apr 16, 2022

Guojing said:
It was already established by James in Acts 15:19, and the Acts 21:18-25 clarified that, during the Jerusalem Council, only the gentiles who believed are to be excused from the Law of Moses.

The issue on whether Jews who believed, True Israel as I have stated, needed to keep the Law of Moses, was not even on the agenda then during Acts 15. It is understood that they still need to be zealous of the Law.

True Israel means all Christians, not just believing Jews. Thats why your term is confusing.

I think it can be seen in the New Testament, that the first church was not perfect, but had her own internal serious conflicts. After 70 AD, the Law could not be kept anymore. It was a clear, visible dot behind it. But James was killed before that.

trophy33 · Apr 16, 2022

I mean no disrespect for James, though. He was one of the closest apostles to Christ.

Guojing · Apr 16, 2022

myst33 said:
True Israel means all Christians, not just believing Jews. Thats why your term is confusing.

Jesus said "go to the whole world", but James stayed in Jerusalem and cared about the Law instead. His advice to Paul to appease Jews in the temple made Paul to be arrested and killed. People who came from James made Jews in churches to separate from Gentiles and even tought that Gentiles must be circumcised and to keep the Mosaic Law.

I think it can be seen in the New Testament, that the first church was not perfect, but had her own internal serious conflicts. Till 70 AD, after that the Law could not be kept anymore, so it was a clear, visible dot behind it. But James was killed before that.

I see you have not followed the exchange I earlier had with Leaf473. I can understand why you would be confused. Did Christ at the Cross end all the laws?

Guojing · Apr 16, 2022

myst33 said:
I mean no disrespect for James, he was one of the closest apostles to Christ.

But from the New Testament record it seems he was too nationalistic, traditional and made some serious mistakes.

Actually, once you are willing to read Galatians 2:7-9 in the KJV literally, he is perfectly justified in telling Paul to keep the Law in Acts 21:18-25.

Paul only had the authority to preach his gospel of the uncircumcision to gentile believers. What probably happened was that Paul preached Galatians 5:2 so prominently to the gentiles, that some Jews have overheard him saying that, and concluded that they also have no need to circumcise their children nor keep the Law anymore.

So when those Jews started to follow Galatians 5:2, the rest of the believing Jews who were zealous of the Law, including James, were upset with Paul.

trophy33 · Apr 16, 2022

Guojing said:
Actually, once you are willing to read Galatians 2:7-9 in the KJV literally, he is perfectly justified in telling Paul to keep the Law in Acts 21:18-25.

Paul only had the authority to preach his gospel of the uncircumcision to gentile believers. What probably happened was that Paul preached Galatians 5:2 so prominently to the gentiles, that some Jews have overheard him saying that, and concluded that they also have no need to circumcise their children nor keep the Law anymore.

So when those Jews started to follow Galatians 5:2, the rest of the believing Jews who were zealous of the Law, including James, were upset with Paul.

You may be right that its what happened. It makes sense.

SabbathBlessings · Apr 16, 2022

Aquila0121 said:
The Law of Moses demands that women are unclean when menstruating. They were forbidden to attend worship, couldn't be touched, and even the furniture they sat on was unclean. Women aren't even permitted to sleep in the same bed as their husbands while menstruating according to the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses even condemned wearing polyblend fabrics and condemned women for wearing crotch knitted pantaloons, as it is an "abomination" (this is why Orthodox Jewish women never wear pants). Men were forbidden to shave their beards and side burns. lol

Those who argue we are still under the Law of Moses would actually be the WORST violators in most cases.

But... if we agree that the Law of Moses ended at the cross... all these carnal laws go away and we are only left with the Law of God... the 10 Commandments. And Jesus and Paul emphasized that we fulfill the Law of God through Love.

I agree with a lot of what you say regarding the Ten Commandments found in Exodus 20 written by the finger of God. The earthy sanctuary was just a replica of the heavenly sanctuary where God dwells and has an ark of the covenant, the Ten Commandments in the Most Holy of His Temple Revelation 11:19 so I agree God’s law is eternal and sad so many people can’t see this. Love fulfills the law when we keep them as God says right in the Ten Commandments Exodus 20:6 as well as John- For this is the love of God, that we keep, His commandments 1 John 5:3.

What I don’t agree is that all the laws of Moses ended. What is stated in scripture is the law of ordinances (ceremonial) is what ended Colossians 2:14 with Jesus being our perfect Sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins and for sanctification. Some examples would be love God with all your heart, love your neighbor all coming from the law of Moses. Leviticus 19:18 Deuteronomy 6:5, our bodies haven’t changed and nothing in scripture saying the health laws ended, or the civil laws- if a neighbors animal wonders on your property- bring it back. Tithing didn’t end- God owns 100% of everything and only asks for 10% back to Him. Just like God gives of six days to do the things we need to do and only asks for 1 day to worship/foster our relationship with Him. We have a very reasonable God and unfortunately many don’t see Him this way.

Anyway, thanks for engaging!

Leaf473 · Apr 16, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
Yes, we have gone over this a few times on what changed when Jesus because our sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. It tells us pretty clearly in my opinion, what has changed and what has not in scripture. Probably no reason to go over it again.

I can't see a reason to go over it again the same way.

But I think it would be great to talk about the practical aspects of what you're presenting.

A practical thing you could do is post some of the scriptures where you believe the remaining laws are found.

And may the peace of the Lord be always with you!

Leaf473 · Apr 16, 2022

Aquila0121 said:
Every instruction wasn't for us. Jesus was talking to a Jewish leper who had been healed... and keep in mind this was BEFORE Jesus ever went to the cross and established the NT. Technically... anything that happened before the cross is OT.

True! Most of what Jesus teaches is under the old Covenant. He's showing the true nature of the old Covenant, and also the problems with it.

The Rich Young ruler asks Jesus What must I do...?
Jesus answers with some of the ten commandments and a fuller instruction about loving his neighbor.

The Philippian jailer asks Paul and Silas a very similar question. They give a very different answer under the New Covenant, Believe in the Lord Jesus.

SabbathBlessings · Apr 16, 2022

Leaf473 said:
True! Most of what Jesus teaches is under the old Covenant. He's showing the true nature of the old Covenant, and also the problems with it.

The Rich Young ruler asks Jesus What must I do...?
Jesus answers with some of the ten commandments and a fuller instruction about loving his neighbor.

The Philippian jailer asks Paul and Silas a very similar question. They give a very different answer under the New Covenant, Believe in the Lord Jesus.

To believe in Christ means to do the things Christ says. James 1:22 It’s not passive. One scripture doesn’t delete the other, they work together.

Leaf473 · Apr 16, 2022

Aquila0121 said:
Can you name a single statement Jesus made to a NT believer? lol

Keep in mind, a NT believer must believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. They must also be born of the Spirit and many would include being water baptized. NO ONE prior to Pentecost fits this description.

True again! The closest some of the people in the gospels get is believing that Jesus is the promised Messiah... Nathaniel, Peter, possibly the Samaritan woman at the well... But none of them are as yet born of water and Spirit.

Akita Suggagaki · Apr 16, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Samaritan woman at the well

Beautiful story from John 4
39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.

Too bad we are not told what Jesus expected of them....of course, other than to love.

Leaf473 · Apr 16, 2022

Aquila0121 said:
No. The "Law of Moses" is an all or nothing proposition, it's not a buffet bar. But most lump "the law" all together and pick and choose what they think is relevant. However, we must distinguish between the Law of God and the Law of Moses...

The "Law of God" was written by God in tablets of stone and were put "inside" the ark. The "Law of Moses" was completed over 39+ years later after their wonderings and was written by Moses on scrolls... and placed in the "side" of the ark. The Law of God (Ten Commandments) were universal laws expressing God's desire for all mankind. However, the Law of Moses only applied to Israel. At the cross... the law of Moses ended. Israel was done. Now God's covenant was open to all, including gentiles. But the "Law of God" remains to condemn sin.

Law of God (Decalogue) placed "inside" the ark... Law of Moses (Torah) written on scrolls and placed in the "side" of the ark...

However, Jesus even went deeper by teaching us HOW to obey the Law of God. Jesus said it simply in two commandments...

1.) Love the Lord your God with all your being.
2.) And demonstrate that love for God in loving your neighbor as yourself.

This fulfills all Ten Commandments.

How? Well... if you obey, "Thou shalt not kill.".... it doesn't mean you love your neighbor if you don't kill him. You might hate his guts and just not want to go to jail. However, ... if you LOVE your neighbor... you'll never even consider harming him. Same with stealing, false witness, honoring parents, not worshipping other Gods, etc.... love is the key.

So, what must we who are born again Christians do???

Love God. Love others. The rest is merely commentary.

Thanks for the post. I was actually attempting to write to Neogaia777, but I must have hit the wrong Reply button or something.

I like that part about how the law of Moses is "...not a buffet bar."

Of course, everyone is welcome to respond to anything I write!

Thanks again for the response

Did Christ at the cross end all the laws?

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