Dialing down

[Elisha1961]

Good analogies...makes me think of the WOF I attended. THey were always pumping up the crowd never really had a quiet worship time...good teaching there, but most of the congregation was young, teens and 20s. Not that that was good or bad but does that have anything to do with it, I wonder?

 

[he4rty]

I've not read all the posts in this thread, But tell me what is the difference between a worship leader encouraging dancing etc.,and one who is encouraging silence and stillness.

 

[sebastian]

I've not read all the posts in this thread, But tell me what is the difference between a worship leader encouraging dancing etc.,and one who is encouraging silence and stillness.

nothing as long as they are taking thier directions from the holy spirit and not doing these things just because they feel that's what should happen next.

 

[JimB]

How do you know that the quiet person crying in the pew is not working off of worked up emotion? Loud and jumping for joy does not equate fake anymore than quiet equates to a fear of people watching you.

*****

I don’t know what people do to themselves. I just know that someone else—especially someone on a stage claiming to be a spiritual leader--didn’t work it up for them and deceive her into believing it was the Holy Ghost.

~Jim

Friends are chocolate chips in the cookie of life!​

 

[probinson]

I've not read all the posts in this thread, But tell me what is the difference between a worship leader encouraging dancing etc.,and one who is encouraging silence and stillness.

There is no difference. At all.

I am, by defintion, a worship leader. I pick the songs, I lead the singing, I head up practices, etc.

But I prefer to think of myself not as the worship "leader", but as the lead worshipper, and there is a WORLD of difference.

Likening people who are jubilant in their worship to those with ADHD and "spectators" is just as bad as those who look down on those who prefer to "dial down".

As the "lead worshipper", I worship God as I feel led of the Spirit to do. This takes different forms all the time. Sometimes, I am just still before the Lord. Other times, I shout the victory! Still others, I find myself weeping as I am engulfed in His presence.

But the point I'm trying to make is, as the "lead worshipper", I am simply worshipping God, and that is what I want everyone else in the congregation to do. I don't want them to follow my instructions. We might as well be playing simon says if that's the case. I want them to press into God on their own. Whether that means sitting quietly and just being with Him, or running around the sanctuary in circles is really inconsequential to me, as long as you are worshipping God.

So the idea of "dialing down" is no different than asking people to "gear it up". Both are incorrect. We should not be telling people how they should worship. That is between them and God.

The point is, regardless of how you worship, you should worship Him in Spirit and in Truth, regardless of what your neighbor is doing or thinks of you.

 

[JimB]

There is no difference. At all.

I am, by defintion, a worship leader. I pick the songs, I lead the singing, I head up practices, etc.

But I prefer to think of myself not as the worship "leader", but as the lead worshipper, and there is a WORLD of difference.

Likening people who are jubilant in their worship to those with ADHD and "spectators" is just as bad as those who look down on those who prefer to "dial down".

As the "lead worshipper", I worship God as I feel led of the Spirit to do. This takes different forms all the time. Sometimes, I am just still before the Lord. Other times, I shout the victory! Still others, I find myself weeping as I am engulfed in His presence.

But the point I'm trying to make is, as the "lead worshipper", I am simply worshipping God, and that is what I want everyone else in the congregation to do. I don't want them to follow my instructions. We might as well be playing simon says if that's the case. I want them to press into God on their own. Whether that means sitting quietly and just being with Him, or running around the sanctuary in circles is really inconsequential to me, as long as you are worshipping God.

So the idea of "dialing down" is no different than asking people to "gear it up". Both are incorrect. We should not be telling people how they should worship. That is between them and God.

The point is, regardless of how you worship, you should worship Him in Spirit and in Truth, regardless of what your neighbor is doing or thinks of you.

Good post, Pete. I agree. I’d love to have you lead me in worship.

~Jim

Friends are chocolate chips in the cookie of life!​

 

[charityagape]

I don’t know what people do to themselves. I just know that someone else—especially someone on a stage claiming to be a spiritual leader--didn’t work it up for them and deceive her into believing it was the Holy Ghost.

~Jim

Friends are chocolate chips in the cookie of life!​

Don't you think you're just revercing the "prejudice" for lack of a better word? I mean you don't like people tellingl you you're not excited enough about the things of God, don't like them telling you that you're not worshiping because you're afraid people will look at you funny, you don't like people telling you what true worship looks like.

You don't like those things because they're not true.

So you turn around and say what true worship looks like ? You tell people that if they're jumping and shouting and telling the person next to them they're blessed then they're NOT truly worshiping they're instead being emotionally manipulated.

You're just doing the same thing, accusing people of untrue things because it doesn't fit what YOU think.

What matters is what God thinks. True worshipers worship in truth and in spirit, and no one from the outside of your spirit should be able to look at your still body or your jumping body and say, "You're not really worshiping".

 

[charityagape]

There is no difference. At all.

I am, by defintion, a worship leader. I pick the songs, I lead the singing, I head up practices, etc.

But I prefer to think of myself not as the worship "leader", but as the lead worshipper, and there is a WORLD of difference.

Likening people who are jubilant in their worship to those with ADHD and "spectators" is just as bad as those who look down on those who prefer to "dial down".

As the "lead worshipper", I worship God as I feel led of the Spirit to do. This takes different forms all the time. Sometimes, I am just still before the Lord. Other times, I shout the victory! Still others, I find myself weeping as I am engulfed in His presence.

But the point I'm trying to make is, as the "lead worshipper", I am simply worshipping God, and that is what I want everyone else in the congregation to do. I don't want them to follow my instructions. We might as well be playing simon says if that's the case. I want them to press into God on their own. Whether that means sitting quietly and just being with Him, or running around the sanctuary in circles is really inconsequential to me, as long as you are worshipping God.

So the idea of "dialing down" is no different than asking people to "gear it up". Both are incorrect. We should not be telling people how they should worship. That is between them and God.

The point is, regardless of how you worship, you should worship Him in Spirit and in Truth, regardless of what your neighbor is doing or thinks of you.

Awesome post, and so much more well spoken that I could express it.

 

[JimB]

Don't you think you're just revercing the "prejudice" for lack of a better word? I mean you don't like people tellingl you you're not excited enough about the things of God, don't like them telling you that you're not worshiping because you're afraid people will look at you funny, you don't like people telling you what true worship looks like.

You don't like those things because they're not true.

So you turn around and say what true worship looks like ? You tell people that if they're jumping and shouting and telling the person next to them they're blessed then they're NOT truly worshiping they're instead being emotionally manipulated.

You're just doing the same thing, accusing people of untrue things because it doesn't fit what YOU think.

What matters is what God thinks. True worshipers worship in truth and in spirit, and no one from the outside of your spirit should be able to look at your still body or your jumping body and say, "You're not really worshiping".

I feel people should worship God as they please (so long as they are not inconsiderate of the feelings of others). It’s just that quiet people do not intrude into others’ space (aurally)--that is what 1 Corinthians 14 is all about, after all.

I have no problem with exuberant friends who may worship God in a more enthusiastic manner than I do. It’s their right just as much as it is mine to do my thing quietly.

I am opposed, however, to services being little more than a high school pep rally and worship leaders being little more than cheerleaders.

~Jim

Friends are chocolate chips in the cookie of life!​

 

[JAS4Yeshua]

I feel people should worship God as they please (so long as they are not inconsiderate of the feelings of others). It’s just that quiet people do not intrude into others’ space (aurally)--that is what 1 Corinthians 14 is all about, after all.

I have no problem with exuberant friends who may worship God in a more enthusiastic manner than I do. It’s their right just as much as it is mine to do my thing quietly.

I am opposed, however, to services being little more than a high school pep rally and worship leaders being little more than cheerleaders.

~Jim

Friends are chocolate chips in the cookie of life!​

I can definately agree with this.

 

[NewSong]

I only read the first post but I would like to comment on this subject.

There is no doubt about it our church is not hyped up. Sometimes I think a stick of dynamite could go off next to someone and everyone would ignore it and take it stride. Yet we are not a dead bunch there. If there is anyone more predisposed to "catch the feeling" and go with it, it is myself. For example, this morning we were singing "In Christ Alone" and I had all I could do to just sing it without going off. I am very quiet in worship and yet this song touched me so much and it just welled up inside of me to want to shout but I didn't go with that feeling. I stood there and cried instead. Our pastor would have taken it in his stride as would the other people in the congregation if someone had gave a shout.

What I really have a problem with is not dialing down but dialing up. We have held back too long because we have heard about the emotionalism and the hype but there is nothing wrong with emotions as long as myself or another is not using it to manipulate the service or the atmosphere for there selfish desires. I don't want to go away empty-handed no more than I want anyone else to walk out the door unrefreshed...so we have a cheerleading session for God, what harm is there. It is going to take some emotion and very holy emotions. Oh to have that kind of freedom is precious, precious, precious.

This is a good topic and one that is near to my heart. My brother's church seems to be totally and completely hyped with emotion and there is something grossly wrong and the whole church knows it but they still hoop and holler thinking the louder they get God will do something or the more they dance then God will be happier with them somehow. The worship team is always sad if the congregation is nonreactive to the worship service. They feel they haven't done their job. I know because my brother is the lead guitarist and he tells what goes on behind the scenes. That is sad and such a grief to me when I hear how much bondage they are in when it is supposed to be so pleasing to God.

 

[charityagape]

I feel people should worship God as they please (so long as they are not inconsiderate of the feelings of others). It’s just that quiet people do not intrude into others’ space (aurally)--that is what 1 Corinthians 14 is all about, after all.

I have no problem with exuberant friends who may worship God in a more enthusiastic manner than I do. It’s their right just as much as it is mine to do my thing quietly.

I am opposed, however, to services being little more than a high school pep rally and worship leaders being little more than cheerleaders.

~Jim

Friends are chocolate chips in the cookie of life!​

Well I do understand what you are saying. However, you say pep rally, but then maybe its just a pep rally because you don't like it. And you say intrude on others personal space, well if it is God, then they're RIGHTS don't pre-empt what God wants to do in a given service.

Again, its not about your rights, or what you like, or what style you prefer, or how intrusive it is to what makes you comfortable, or how bored you are, or how whatever YOU are (ps not you you, just every you).

Move with God make sure it's about HIM and not YOU and you're bound to be doing what you're supposed to be doing.

And just because its quiet and you're bored, that doesn't mean the people around you don't care about worshiping God, BUT just because its loud and you're uncomfortable, it doesn't mean the people around you are being emotionally manipulated.

 

[Atlantians]

Yeah,
When I was in my previous Church I was encouraged by the youth leaders to jump, and be all enthusiastic durring worship.
But even then and now what I see is simply a show.
I would only have been doing it to please them, not God.

Essentially that kind of stuff harms the body, it doesn't help the body.

Well I do understand what you are saying. However, you say pep rally, but then maybe its just a pep rally because you don't like it.

He said pep-rally in description to the "yay jump up and down, be happy, lets all Cheer yippy!" and the Worship leaders encouraging an emotional response.

Like I said:
It in the ends pleases people, not God.
So it hurts the body, rather than helps.
Further Jim was not calling that a pep-rally because he dousn't like it, but because it is fake.

And you say intrude on others personal space, well if it is God, then they're RIGHTS don't pre-empt what God wants to do in a given service.

On the other hand, often people in their exuberance dance, jump, howl, and distract others who are also trying to worship.

One kid comes to mind in my last church, he would flail, "dance" "interpretive dance" (he was just flailing though, the movements were unrelated to the song).
And it was terribly distracting to me and several others.

Again, its not about your rights, or what you like, or what style you prefer, or how intrusive it is to what makes you comfortable, or how bored you are, or how whatever YOU are (ps not you you, just every you).

On the other hand it isn't about their exuberance, their energy, their giddy-ness, their enthusiasm, the style they preffer, ect.

And just because its quiet and you're bored, that doesn't mean the people around you don't care about worshiping God, BUT just because its loud and you're uncomfortable, it doesn't mean the people around you are being emotionally manipulated.

He specifically addressed instances where they are being emotionally manipulated: IE: Pep-rally with cheerleader.

 

[Stormswept]

The only problem is...
Genuine worship can lead me to tears.
Genuine worship can lead me to jump for joy.
Genuine worship can lead me to be quiet.
God isn't devoid of emotion, why should our worship of him be?
Genuine worship.... isn't about me, its about where God has taken me.
What I am seeing in this thread is that anything but just being still before God is wrong. Its not. What is wrong is when YOU (the person worshiping) fail to worship in truth.
The person on stage who is joyous, exuberant and encouraging like, might well be in genuine worship as well. It is very dangerous to judge someone in this regard - unless you actually know they are *faking* it. I know the guys who lead in my church and they really are that energetic in person, and that spirit led in worship. So the real question isn't about the guy on stage, its about the only person you have any real direction over - yourself.

Just some added thoughts.
Jaki

 

[JimB]

Well I do understand what you are saying. However, you say pep rally, but then maybe its just a pep rally because you don't like it. And you say intrude on others personal space, well if it is God, then they're RIGHTS don't pre-empt what God wants to do in a given service.

Again, its not about your rights, or what you like, or what style you prefer, or how intrusive it is to what makes you comfortable, or how bored you are, or how whatever YOU are (ps not you you, just every you).

Move with God make sure it's about HIM and not YOU and you're bound to be doing what you're supposed to be doing.

And just because its quiet and you're bored, that doesn't mean the people around you don't care about worshiping God, BUT just because its loud and you're uncomfortable, it doesn't mean the people around you are being emotionally manipulated.

If it’s God? How do you “know” whether it’s God or not. We do not have some spiritual dowsing rod to determine whether someone is in the Spirit or in the flesh so we have to appeal to scripture (in particular 1 Corinthians 14) to know how we are to act in public gatherings of Christians. The bottom line (last verse of the chapter) says it clearly, based on everything that has been said before it, “let every thing be done decently and in order” and decency is a subjective cultural term.

So, what may be “decent” in Texas may not be decent in New Jersey and what may be decent in our church may not be decent in yours or what may be decent in an upscale church may not be down in the barrio. But to say that someone’s actions is “of God” simply because they are hyped-emotionally, is just as wrong as to say that someone who is not is “bound in their spirit”. Unless we spiritually discern whether something is of God or not, all we have is the scripture to fall back on. I am far more comfortable doing that than in blaming God for something He may have no part in.

~Jim

Friends are chocolate chips in the cookie of life!​

 

[probinson]

Yeah,
When I was in my previous Church I was encouraged by the youth leaders to jump, and be all enthusiastic durring worship.
But even then and now what I see is simply a show.
I would only have been doing it to please them, not God.

Essentially that kind of stuff harms the body, it doesn't help the body.

He said pep-rally in description to the "yay jump up and down, be happy, lets all Cheer yippy!" and the Worship leaders encouraging an emotional response.

Like I said:
It in the ends pleases people, not God.
So it hurts the body, rather than helps.
Further Jim was not calling that a pep-rally because he dousn't like it, but because it is fake.

Twice you've said that jumping up and down and cheering "hurts" the body.

How?

How the heck does someone jumping up and down and shouting "WOOHOO GOD!" "hurt" the body?

On the other hand, often people in their exuberance dance, jump, howl, and distract others who are also trying to worship.

One kid comes to mind in my last church, he would flail, "dance" "interpretive dance" (he was just flailing though, the movements were unrelated to the song).
And it was terribly distracting to me and several others.

Then may I suggest that you were not worshiping in Spirit and in truth, because when you do so, it doesn't matter what your neighbor is doing. When you truly worship God in Spirit and in Truth, all else fades away, and it is just you and Him.

Sound judgmental? No more than saying that the kid that was dancing before God was "faking" it. As I recall, David was a little exuberant in his worship as well...

On the other hand it isn't about their exuberance, their energy, their giddy-ness, their enthusiasm, the style they preffer, ect.

He specifically addressed instances where they are being emotionally manipulated: IE: Pep-rally with cheerleader.

But how do you know they are being emotionally manipulated? How do you know that they aren't truly expressing their zeal for God, and it comes out in an emotional way.

As has already been pointed out, God created us with emotions. It's not wrong to use those emotions to worship Him as the Spirit leads you.

 

[he4rty]

Pro, maybe this is more directed to you and anyone else who might be in a worship group.

Surely one way of dialling up or dialling down would also depend on the worship song choice, take our church we may have a few livelier songs a the beginning but before communion the song choice would be slower more intro respective so you can begin to focus on oneself.

So nobody has to command the emotion, its more governed by song choice.

 

[probinson]

Pro, maybe this is more directed to you and anyone else who might be in a worship group.

Surely one way of dialling up or dialling down would also depend on the worship song choice, take our church we may have a few livelier songs a the beginning but before communion the song choice would be slower more intro respective so you can begin to focus on oneself.

So nobody has to command the emotion, its more governed by song choice.

That's a good point. We typically sing 4 songs, 2 upbeat, 2 worshipful. And you are correct that when we are singing "Church On Fire!" that people tend to be a bit more wound up than when we sing "Draw Me Close".

But it's not manipulating people's emotions to do so. What it does is it gives us the opportunity to make a joyful noise, and then rest in His presence. We should realize and understand that there is a time and a place for both.

 

[JimB]

If, during a song like “Church on fire” (which I assume is an upbeat song) and people act in an upbeat fashion seems perfectly “decent and in order to me” (within limits )—the context of the song determines the reaction. It happens in our church (believe it or not ) and is fine with me.

So, I have no problem with this. But everyone here has most likely been in a church meeting where someone acts, um, inappropriately and draws attention to themselves and not to God. Some may approve, some may disapprove, but one thing is for certain—God is no longer the center of attention, the worshiper is. This is one of those instances where it might be necessary to dial down a bit so that people can refocus on the reason why we worship in the first place: to glorify God.

Perhaps there are times we need to dial it up a bit, too, but those times seem to be more rare in Pentecostal churches (especially in my part of the world ) than the other. Few people are distracted by someone acting quietly.

~Jim

It is better to assume your responsibility than to assert your rights.​

 

[sebastian]

are you talking about someone walking into a really quite type congregation and during the hymn, they shout out "YES JEEESUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!! YES LORD!! WOOOOOOOOOO!!!!" and then dance up and down the church? I think then it's a bit unfair to impose your style of worship on a congregation that isn't ready for that.
If the church is then there shouldn;t be a problem.