Devil's Advocate?

[muaxiong]

So then, you could never be a lawyer Or a scientist who ever came up with a hypothesis.

Actually I am a quasi scientist of a sort - a teacher of it to be more exact - so there is no problem with scientific knowledge. But a lawyer - not a chance!

 

[muaxiong]

Im a truth seeker. The Bible simple did not hold up under scrutiny.

If it is truth you are seeking then what would you consider to be truth? However the idea that the Bible cannot hold up under scrutiny is a matter of opinion as it has withstood many a skeptics to include the French atheist Voltaire who said something to the effect that in a 100 years the bible will be an antiquated and out of date book that will be forgotten - and yet it remains the world's best seller - in fact after Voltaire's death his home was bought by the French Bible Society and made into a bible distribution center!

 

[BillyWheaton]

If it is truth you are seeking then what would you consider to be truth? However the idea that the Bible cannot hold up under scrutiny is a matter of opinion as it has withstood many a skeptics to include the French atheist Voltaire who said something to the effect that in a 100 years the bible will be an antiquated and out of date book that will be forgotten - and yet it remains the world's best seller - in fact after Voltaire's death his home was bought by the French Bible Society and made into a bible distribution center!

Voltaire simply had too much "faith" in people desire to know the truth and too seek the truth. Christians remaining closed off from other viewpoints in this context is a self-fulfilling prophesy. Islam and Mormonism and other religions have survived also, this does not make them true!

 

[BillyWheaton]

Jesus said that there would be wolves in sheeps clothing, but you have narrowed your vision to make all Christians like the evil ones who call themselves by His name in vain. Just saying what is right isn't the same as doing it.
I don't remember saying your out to corrupt my children or calling you any kind of evil??? It looks like you really seek an ecuse more than the truth, and if one person offends you, then that is enough to claim there is no truth in the God who came in the flesh and died for the sins of all mankind as an act of love. He calls us to learn how to give of ourselves, too.
If you can judge all Christians in such a way, all in the same pot, can you stand up to the measure of love Jesus showed us and make your life one that gives all of self for the benefit of others? It isn't an easy calling, for sure, but it is a goal that the true Chritian presses forward for. Pot smoking, etc,; been there, done that, but one learns just how selfish these things are in the big picture, and that life just for "self" is not what we were created for. We are here to learn what true love is:

I JOHN 3:16-19 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with ACTIONS and TRUTH. This then is how we KNOW that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence whenever our hearts condemn us.

You are making harsh assumptions about me for sure! You compared my beliefs to a violent and hateful Satan!

I have many methods of evaluating informantion. I'll share one of my methods with you! IF someone says to you BEWARE of FALSE TEACHERS, THEN do BEWARE as that someone is more likely then not to be a FALSE TEACHER!

 

[BillyWheaton]

You think that only because you lack faith.

I believe this because the Bible does not stand up to scrutiny very well! Why would assign reasons to my beliefs? Do you know me?

 

[LilLamb219]

I believe this because the Bible does not stand up to scrutiny very well! Why would assign reasons to my beliefs? Do you know me?

Your confession of faith (or lack of in Christ Jesus as the Savior for the forgiveness of your sins) says plenty enough as to who you are. You have the icon of agnostic which doesn't make you Christian which means you lack faith in our triune God. Sure, you might have faith in works or other things, but you don't have faith for salvation and you certainly haven't said you have faith in God's Word which is found in scripture.

So, you claim you have lots of faith. Faith in what? Or Who? And where will that faith get you? If it's not in Jesus Christ and Him crucified, you will not have faith for salvation.

 

[BillyWheaton]

So, you claim you have lots of faith. Faith in what? Or Who? And where will that faith get you? If it's not in Jesus Christ and Him crucified, you will not have faith for salvation.

I had "faith" that the Bible and the claims made by my pastors and church leaders were credible. But as I researched these claims for myself, boy was I in for a big surprise. The evidence was minimal, contradictory and inconsistent, IMO, so I had no other morally correct choice but to find the claims of Evangelical Christianity to be Invalid. I have faith in my ability to read and discern information in a variety of ways, all remain open for refinement, change and scrutiny. I did have a pre-test bias--strongly in favor of Evangelical Christianity! To that you cannot deny, as I know my own heart!

 

[muaxiong]

Voltaire simply had too much "faith" in people desire to know the truth and too seek the truth. Christians remaining closed off from other viewpoints in this context is a self-fulfilling prophesy. Islam and Mormonism and other religions have survived also, this does not make them true!

Are you really looking for the truth - or just what justifies your willful disbelief in the various flavors of Christianity?

 

[BillyWheaton]

Are you really looking for the truth - or just what justifies your willful disbelief in the various flavors of Christianity?

It is not willful. Simply overwhelming. Like gravity, I dont willfully follow this law, yet everytime I trip I fall to the ground and never do I start to float. I could deny gravity but gravity would still be a valid law. In the same way I could simply choose to say Christianity is valid, but this would not alter the evidence and the underlying reality of that issue.

 

[Calminian]

cool if you ever debate and take non-christian side, id love to see, watch, eaves drop or even be CHRISTIAN side of debate!

I don't do it secretly or deceptively. I'll just come out and say let me play devil's advocate. I don't see what the big deal is.

 

[BillyWheaton]

I don't do it secretly or deceptively. I'll just come out and say let me play devil's advocate. I don't see what the big deal is.

I agree but you can read a few posters here think that it is a big deal and should never be done. I hold as self-evident that someone who makes an assumption will be able to conclude that that assumption is correct. So with no attempt at neutrality, there really is no discourse that fits into any common logical construct.

 

[Calminian]

I had "faith" that the Bible and the claims made by my pastors and church leaders were credible.

Sounds like you had a misunderstanding of biblical faith. Sounds like you had faith that rather then a faith in. The new testament goes into this in subject in much detail, especially in the books of James and 1John but many places elsewhere. My guess is you really didn't know the bible that well and probably weren't in a good position to accept or deny it. It would be very hard to be a practicing christian and not understand the basic concept of faith. If I were you I wouldn't draw too many conclusions without a little more study, and discussion with the folks in this forum (just like your doing). Just a suggestion.

 

[Sketcher]

This response typifies why as an ex-christian I use an alias. This is very scary too me. How have you let such horrible evil thoughts about other human beings creep into your head?

Calm down, we don't put hits on apostates. As for all that horrible stuff, it is reality - one only needs to observe Sudan to find that out.

Or is it the black-and-white view of the world you have a problem with?

 

[Calminian]

I agree but you can read a few posters here think that it is a big deal and should never be done. I hold as self-evident that someone who makes an assumption will be able to conclude that that assumption is correct. So with no attempt at neutrality, there really is no discourse that fits into any common logical construct.

The only aspect that may be objectionable is doing it in a deceptive way, not being up front about your true beliefs. Playing DA is a good maybe even necessary thing to practice in working through various arguments. At the very least one must play DA with themselves as they think things through. I mean it's like playing chess and trying to discern your opponents strategy while formulating your own. I'm not getting what the concern is.

Maybe it would be helpful for you to post a precise definition of Devil's Advocate for this discussion. Perhaps there's some confusion on what you mean.

 

[53Isaiah]

A Devil’s Advocate a person who argues a position that they do not necessarily believe or who presents a counterargument for a position they do believe in to another for the purpose of testing the quality of the original argument and identify weaknesses in its structure.

Thou Christians might not argue the opposing side quiet in this way. We are called to reason together, and to seek truth. We use our intellect to compare scripture with scripture, rightly dividing the word of God.

PS: How many Atheist preach the gospel of Christ… for devil’s advocates sake of course?

 

[Calminian]

PS: How man Atheist preach the gospel of Christ… for devil’s advocates sake of course?

This is a non sequitur. An atheist does not need to go out and preach in order to play DA in a discussion amongst fellow atheists. You’re confusing terms.

 

[53Isaiah]

You’re confusing terms.

Then we disagree.

 

[Calminian]

Then we disagree.

What are you disagreeing about?

 

[Rafael]

You are making harsh assumptions about me for sure! You compared my beliefs to a violent and hateful Satan!

I have many methods of evaluating informantion. I'll share one of my methods with you! IF someone says to you BEWARE of FALSE TEACHERS, THEN do BEWARE as that someone is more likely then not to be a FALSE TEACHER!

Not at all. You put words into my posts that are not there. No harsh assumpsions at all. Did I say the word "satan" in my post or compare you to something you claim to not even believe in? No, I did not. Did you complain about evil Christians who you seem to imply are responsible for your rejection of faith? Yes you did. You are reading words into my posts that are not there.
It seems to me that you judge all Christians from a narrow point of view. Jesus warned that many would come after Him and carry His name in vain. So if we are warned, there is no excuse for quiting in that.
If you have satisfied yourself with some evidence that God is not real, then that is not what you shared. You just told in your post about how evil the Evangelicals are that you have met: "all the pot smokin' drinkin' sexually excessive people I know claim they are Christians-- jus watch gangsta rappers interviewed, they all claim to be Christians-- yet reading these responses, one would believe that someone like me who came to reject the claims that EVAngelicals (not God mind You) make about the Bible through countless hours of study and reflection are the evilest most wickedest of all."
Now who called who evil?? It wasn't me. I still stick to my statement I made, and I didn't call anyone "satan" or you any more evil than the rest of us sinners who need God's grace.

 

[BillyWheaton]

A Devil’s Advocate a person who argues a position that they do not necessarily believe or who presents a counterargument for a position they do believe in to another for the purpose of testing the quality of the original argument and identify weaknesses in its structure.

Thou Christians might not argue the opposing side quiet in this way. We are called to reason together, and to seek truth. We use our intellect to compare scripture with scripture, rightly dividing the word of God.

PS: How many Atheist preach the gospel of Christ… for devil’s advocates sake of course?

I will. I take Christianity you take atheist. lets do it!