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Deuteronomy 8:3

Is there any room to interpret the NT as speaking against this verse?


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Soyeong

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No more than Ro 6:10, Heb 8:13, 9:12, 26, 28, 10:10, 1 Pe 3:18 are set against the sacrifices of Leviticus.

It's not against Dt 8:3. . .but in the light of NT apostolic teaching of the new covenant--the old covenant being obsolete (Heb 8:13),
they are in fulfillment of Dt 8:3, just as Ro 6:10, Heb 8:13, 9:12, 26, 28, 10:10, 1 Pe 3:18 are the fulfillment of much of Leviticus, which is likewise now obsolete (Heb 8:13).
You can't be favor of living by every word that comes out of the mouth of Lord while also interpreting the NT as being against living by every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord.

The Mosaic Covenant is eternal (Exodus 31:14-17, Leviticus 24:8), so the only way that it can be replaced by the New Covenant is if the New Covenant does everything that it does plus more, which is what it means to make something obsolete (Hebrews 8:10). For example, a computer does not make a plow obsolete because they do different things, but it does make a typewriter obsolete because it still does the same function plus more. So the New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Hebrews 8:10) plus it is based on better promises and has a superior mediator (Hebrews 8:6). The fault that God found with the Mosaic Covenant was not with the Torah, but rather God found fault with the people for not continuing in their covenant (Hebrews 8:7-9), so the solution to the problem was not to do away with the Torah, but to do away with what was hindering us from obeying it. This is why the New Covenant involves God sending the Son to to free us form sin so that we might be free to meet the righteous requirement of the Torah (Hebrews 8:4-7), God taking away our hearts of stone, giving us hearts of the flesh, and sending His Spirit to lead us to obey the Torah (Ezekiel 36:26-27), and putting the Torah in our minds and writing in on our hearts (Hebrews 8:10).

There is a difference between the way to act in accordance with God's eternal character and a covenant agreement that includes instructions for how to do that as its terms. A covenant can become obsolete, but that will never change the eternal way to act in accordance with God's character. In other words, the Mosaic Covenant becoming obsolete did not cause God's eternal righteousness or the eternal way to act in accordance with His righteous to become obsolete.
 
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DamianWarS

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Christians commonly interpret NT as speaking against the Torah, which is interpreting Scripture as speaking against Scripture, which is directly opposed to the position that man shall live by every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord even though Jesus quoted that verse in order to defeat one of the temptations of Satan, which is a major flaw that the poll is intended to highlight.
this is a strawman, no one who's critically looking at the text will say the NT is speaking against the OT. Those who may use this language have a misunderstanding of the relationship of the old with the new or use terminology that does not reflect this relationship that may not be intentional. Efforts need to be made first to understand the language someone uses. Jesus says he did not come to abolish the law the and the profits (Mat 5:17) but Paul says they are (Eph 2:15). a study will reveal the Greek words used are different, Paul's intent is not that the old is thrown away but that keeping its fleshly ordinance has ended.
Having a circumcised heart is part of the OT (Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Deuteronomy 30:6, Jeremiah 9:25) and does not not for to anything other than someone who is living in obedience to the Torah, so that is not a change in the NT. In Romans 2:25, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Torah, which is the same way to tell for a Jew.
indeed a circumcised heart is a part of the old however a complete understanding of NT revelation does not have the flesh requirement (1 Cor 7:18-19, Gal 2:1-10 Gal 5:6, Gal 6:15, Col 2:6-15, Rom 2:29, Phi 3:3). The old on the other hand does require the flesh, it is explicit in the covenant agreement with Abraham (Gen 17) and in case you didn't know what happens if you ignore it just look at what happened to Moses when he ignored it with his Son (Exo 4).
 
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Soyeong

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this is a strawman, no one who's critically looking at the text will say the NT is speaking against the OT. Those who may use this language have a misunderstanding of the relationship of the old with the new or use terminology that does not reflect this relationship that may not be intentional. Efforts need to be made first to understand the language someone uses.
For example, the OT requires us to keep God's holy days and the NT is commonly interpreted as speaking against being required to do that.

Jesus says he did not come to abolish the law the and the profits (Mat 5:17) but Paul says they are (Eph 2:15). a study will reveal the Greek words used are different, Paul's intent is not that the old is thrown away but that keeping its fleshly ordinance has ended.
While that verse can be interpreted in a way that turns it against following every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord, it is incorrect to do so, especially because the Bible never uses the Greek word "dogma" to refer to the Torah. In Ephesians 2:12-19, Gentiles were at one time separated form Christ, alienated from Israel and the covenants of promises, and without hope and God in the world, which is all in accordance with Gentiles at one time not being doers of the Torah, but through faith in Christ all of that is no longer true in that Gentiles are no longer strangers or aliens, but are fellow citizens of Israel along with the saints in the household of God, which is all in accordance with Gentiles becoming doers of the Torah, so you are not correctly identifying what was being broken down.

indeed a circumcised heart is a part of the old however a complete understanding of NT revelation does not have the flesh requirement (1 Cor 7:18-19, Gal 2:1-10 Gal 5:6, Gal 6:15, Col 2:6-15, Rom 2:29, Phi 3:3). The old on the other hand does require the flesh, it is explicit in the covenant agreement with Abraham (Gen 17) and in case you didn't know what happens if you ignore it just look at what happened to Moses when he ignored it with his Son (Exo 4).
It is important to recognize that the Bible can speak against doing something for an incorrect reason without speaking against doing it for the reasons for which God commanded it. If Paul had been speaking against circumcision for any reason instead of just incorrect reasons, then that would mean that according to Galatians 5:2, Paul caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy when he had him circumcised right after the Jerusalem Council and Christ is of no value to roughly 80% of the men in the US. In Acts 15:1, they were wanting to require Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the reason for which God commanded circumcision, so the Jerusalem Council upheld the Torah by correctly ruling against requiring circumcision for an incorrect reason. In Exodus 12:48, a Gentile who wanted to eat of the Passover lamb was required to become physically circumcised, so the Jerusalem Council should not be interpreted as speaking against Gentile correctly acting in accordance with what God has commanded as if they had the authority to countermand God.

In Isaiah 45:17, it says that all of Israel shall be saved, which has led to think that all a Gentile needs to do in order to become saved is to become a Jew, which involved physical circumcision, which is the position that Paul was opposing when he spoke against "works of the law". So it is important not to mistake what is said about circumcision in regard to whether a Gentile is required to become a Jew as speaking in regard to circumcision for the purposes for which God commanded it. There is nothing about circumcision that changed in the NT.
 
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DamianWarS

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For example, the OT requires us to keep God's holy days and the NT is commonly interpreted as speaking against being required to do that.

the question is not if we keep these holy days but how we keep them? to keep circumcision we may be circumcised of the heart and the flesh is not needed, in doing this we keep law because we are keeping the fulfillment of it that has been revealed to use through the new. So we no longer need to cut the flesh in ignorance, but since we know the truth can walk through the truth not through the old which is of ignorance.

While that verse can be interpreted in a way that turns it against following every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord, it is incorrect to do so, especially because the Bible never uses the Greek word "dogma" to refer to the Torah. In Ephesians 2:12-19, Gentiles were at one time separated form Christ, alienated from Israel and the covenants of promises, and without hope and God in the world, which is all in accordance with Gentiles at one time not being doers of the Torah, but through faith in Christ all of that is no longer true in that Gentiles are no longer strangers or aliens, but are fellow citizens of Israel along with the saints in the household of God, which is all in accordance with Gentiles becoming doers of the Torah, so you are not correctly identifying what was being broken down.
who are you talking to? no one is saying scripture is against scripture. this is a strawman argument.

It is important to recognize that the Bible can speak against doing something for an incorrect reason without speaking against doing it for the reasons for which God commanded it. If Paul had been speaking against circumcision for any reason instead of just incorrect reasons, then that would mean that according to Galatians 5:2, Paul caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy when he had him circumcised right after the Jerusalem Council and Christ is of no value to roughly 80% of the men in the US. In Acts 15:1, they were wanting to require Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the reason for which God commanded circumcision, so the Jerusalem Council upheld the Torah by correctly ruling against requiring circumcision for an incorrect reason. In Exodus 12:48, a Gentile who wanted to eat of the Passover lamb was required to become physically circumcised, so the Jerusalem Council should not be interpreted as speaking against Gentile correctly acting in accordance with what God has commanded as if they had the authority to countermand God.

In Isaiah 45:17, it says that all of Israel shall be saved, which has led to think that all a Gentile needs to do in order to become saved is to become a Jew, which involved physical circumcision, which is the position that Paul was opposing when he spoke against "works of the law". So it is important not to mistake what is said about circumcision in regard to whether a Gentile is required to become a Jew as speaking in regard to circumcision for the purposes for which God commanded it. There is nothing about circumcision that changed in the NT.
Paul was a contextualist. He was motivated in action by how it demonstrated the gospel not by how it demonstrated the law. He is quoted in 1 Cor 9:20 "To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law". It wasn't important to Paul that you keep the letter of law or not, what was important was if you do or if you do not, do so in order to give glory to God and demonstrate the gospel to your mission. So if my mission only wore pink and thought every other colour was wrong then we may dress in pink not to affirm the color but so that we have access to a people group so that we may show them Christ. Paul concludes in v22 "I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some." So his goal is clear, it is to share the gospel.

We can see this demonstrated in the NT. Paul instructs Timothy to get circumcised (Acts 16), yet prevents Titus from being circumcised (Gal 2). So what is the issue at hand here? it's not actually circumcision. Timothy gets circumcised because of his Jewish history and because of the Jews in the area so for contextual reasons, where Titus had no Jewish heritage and to effectively demonstrate freedom of the gospel Paul prevents Titus from getting circumcised. The same value is being manifested here found in 1 Cor 9:22 "I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some." Paul wants to be received into his mission and not offend, so he jumps through whatever hoops they have, then once accepted he may show them Christ. Failing the first step the gospel will fall on death ears because it will never be received. This act of contextualization should be the first act of the gospel.

This is what prompts him to say

1 Cor 9:19
Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.

1 Corinthians 10:23-24
“I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive. No one should seek their own good, but the good of others.

we are free, but should be slaves to our mission "to win as many as possible", but are not salves to the letter of the law.

you seem to be driven by the outward display of law which can be checkbox-driven and detached from our mission showing them arrogance instead of love. Paul was driven by his mission. Mat 12:12 say "it's lawful to do good on the sabbath." This begs the question then why not just do good? the direct example given is if a sheep falls into a pit will we not rescue it (v11) what are the sheep of God if not his people? (basic Sunday school knowledge) what are their states of despair that lead to death liken to a sheep fallen into a pit if not the state of the unsaved? so if our neighbour is in a spiritual pit the action we do to pull them out is lawful, even if that means doing whatever you can think of that is called "work" and on the sabbath, if it is able to show Christ through these actions it is good and iit is lawful. Or we could shut the curtains and ignore them saying it's a holy day and miss the opportunity.

This focus is not against the Sabbath, it keeps its higher meaning, thus keeps Sabbath. how dare we rest, when bleating sheep trapped in pits surround us.
 
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Clare73

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You've already been proven to be ignoring the Testimony of the Master in Mark 9:43-50,
And you know this how?
(Reply#5), and HIS interpretation of the sacrifices in Leviticus for HIS disciples who believe and walk in his all-important holy and approved Testimony, approved by the Father.
Assertion without demonstration is assertion without merit.
 
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Clare73

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You can't be favor of living by every word that comes out of the mouth of Lord while also interpreting the NT as being against living by every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord.
That's what I've been telling you. . .and all Scripture is the word of God (2 Tim 3:16).
 
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Clare73

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So then you agree that Christians should walk in obedience to the Torah?
And you agree that the old covenant is obsolete (Ro 6:10, Heb 8:13, 9:12, 26, 28, 10:10, 1 Pe 3:18), that loving the brethren has fulfilled the law (Ro 13:8)?

Under which covenant do you live, the obsolete old (Heb 8:13) or the new (Lk 22:20), where loving the brethren has fulfilled the law?
 
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Soyeong

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And you agree that the old covenant is obsolete (Ro 6:10, Heb 8:13, 9:12, 26, 28, 10:10, 1 Pe 3:18), that loving the brethren has fulfilled the law (Ro 13:8)?

Under which covenant do you live, the obsolete old (Heb 8:13) or the new (Lk 22:20), where loving the brethren has fulfilled the law?
I've answered your questions, but you refuse to answer mine, so while for some reason you want to appear to be agreeing with me, you keep wiggling like a snake. While I uphold the truth of those verses, I do not agree with your interpretations of them. In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing on our hearts, so I live under the New Covenant while those who do not want to obey the Torah also do not want to live under the New Covenant.

Everything commanded in Torah is either in regard to how to love God and our neighbor, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them, so the position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey all of the commandments that hang on them. For example, if we love God and. our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, theft, murder, idolatry, rape, kidnapping, favoritism, and so forth for the rest of the Torah, so love fulfills the Torah because it is showing a correct understanding of what is about how to do. If someone that they only needed to love, so they were free to do the things that I listed, then they would not correctly understand what it mean to love.
 
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HIM

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To deny the NT word of God which renders the Levitical sacrificial and purification laws obsolete (Heb 8:13) is to deny Christ's atonement once for all (Ro 6:10, Heb 9:12, 26, 28, 10:10, 1 Pe 3:18).
Not sure why every professing Christians here accept certain sects of the Messianics are not screaming through God's Spirit; Amen!.

Are we so blinded now with Spirit lead delusion we can't see the Word of Truth regardless who it comes from. Are we here just to argue our point of view and are not even reading what is before us. Because without a doubt the sanctification and purification work of the Levitical priesthood along with their ministry has been done away with through Christ. Anyone denying that denies Christ and His ministry or have not accepted the Gospel as laid out through God's Spirit and is revealed by His people and the written Word of Truth, the Holy Writ.

Good post Claire.

Question though. Is there a difference between ready to vanish away and have vanished in respect to the old Covenant?

The reason we ask is the text says ready to vanish, not has vanished.

So what is it that is ready to vanish away in respect to the Old Covenant?

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
 
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HIM

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Claire, Paul is Not the way to eternal Life only Jesus IS! there is only one truth!
Paul wrote through the Spirit of Christ.

What is it that you think Paul wrote that is not by God and His Spirit?
 
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JesusFollowerForever

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Paul wrote through the Spirit of Christ.

What is it that you think Paul wrote that is not by God and His Spirit?
Jesus and Paul's message are not the same, check for yourself and see. I will not explain the differences on this thread.
 
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JesusFollowerForever

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Question though. Is there a difference between ready to vanish away and have vanished in respect to the old Covenant?

The reason we ask is the text says ready to vanish, not has vanished.

So what is it that is ready to vanish away in respect to the Old Covenant?

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
I am glad you saw this Not many people do.
 
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HIM

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Jesus and Paul's message are not the same, check for yourself and see. I will not explain the differences on this thread.
Yes, they are. Both speak of keeping the way of the Father through the spirit. For the law, the word is in our hearts. We are now of faith. And this faith establishes law. We do now because we can’t help ourselves. It’s no longer a testimony of commandments and laws. But a testimony of who we are in Christ Jesus, amen
 
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HIM

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JesusFollowerForever

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Yes, they are. Both speak of keeping the way of the Father through the spirit. For the law, the word is in our hearts. We are now of faith. And this faith establishes law. We do now because we can’t help ourselves. It’s no longer a testimony of commandments and laws. But a testimony of who we are in Christ Jesus, amen
Unless you sit down with the texts and really write down verbatim what they said and compare you will not see the differences, please do it, it is worth it.
 
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daq

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Not sure why every professing Christians here accept certain sects of the Messianics are not screaming through God's Spirit; Amen!.

I suppose that is either directed at myself, or the OP, or both of us.

Are we so blinded now with Spirit lead delusion we can't see the Word of Truth regardless who it comes from. Are we here just to argue our point of view and are not even reading what is before us. Because without a doubt the sanctification and purification work of the Levitical priesthood along with their ministry has been done away with through Christ. Anyone denying that denies Christ and His ministry or have not accepted the Gospel as laid out through God's Spirit and is revealed by His people and the written Word of Truth, the Holy Writ.

And what about those naming and claiming the name of Meshiah who choose not to receive or believe the Logos and logic in what he says and teaches in places like Mark 9:43-50? which expounds the Levitical sacrifices in the way that is pleasing to the Father? Paul teaches the same but apparently the namers and claimers who deny the Testimony in the Mark passage are oblivious to Paul's teaching on the same matter.
 
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