Deutercanonical Citations in the New Testament

CaliforniaJosiah · Feb 17, 2015

Our Catholic friend....

1. List for us the 300+ times the unique, current RCC set of DEUTERO books are QUOTED in the NT (be sure to note the quote marks).

2. Prove that being quoted equals offical canonization of the book wherein that quote is found specifically as inspired Scripture.

3. Prove that ALL the books the current RC Denomination uniquely regards as DEUTERO canonical are quoted in the NT - but only they, not any other.

I'll await that. With considerable curiosity.

Thank you!

Pax

- Josiah

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bbbbbbb · Feb 17, 2015

With seven pairs of alleged quotations of the deutercanonical books by Jesus in the Gospels disproven and no comments to the contrary, we will now turn to the eighth -

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus' reference to the "power of death" and "gates of Hades" references Wisdom 16:13.

Matthew 16:13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” 14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.” 15 He *said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.” 20 Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.

Here is the well-known passage in which Jesus states that the gates of Hades (or hell) shall not overpower the church.

5 When terrible, fierce snakes attacked your people and were killing them with their poison, you did not remain angry long enough to destroy your people. 6 This trouble lasted for only a little while, as a warning. Then you gave them a healing symbol, the bronze snake, to remind them of what your Law requires. 7 If a person looked at that symbol, he was cured of the snakebite—not by what he saw, but by you, the savior of all mankind. 8 By doing this, you also convinced our enemies that you are the one who rescues people from every evil. 9 Our enemies died from the bites of locusts and flies; no way was found to cure them, because they deserved to be punished by such creatures. 10 But even poisonous snakes could not overcome your people, because you had mercy, helped them, and cured them. 11 They were bitten so that they would remember your commands, but they were quickly rescued, in order to keep them from forgetting you completely and depriving themselves of your kindness. 12 No medicine or ointment cured them. They were restored to health by your word, O Lord, the word which heals all humanity. 13 You have power over life and death; you can bring a person to the brink of death and back again. 14 A wicked person may kill someone, but cannot bring the dead person back to life or rescue a soul imprisoned in the world of the dead.

This passage from Wisdom is a summary of the passage from Numbers 21:6-9 when the Lord caused poisonous snakes to kill the Israelites and commanded Moses to make a bronze snake in response. There are actually more pertinent passages in the gospels which relate to the passage in Numbers and here in Wisdom. The final verse here does mention "the world of the dead" which is actually a more accurate translation than "power of death" in other translations. In either case, there is no direct application to Jesus' words in Matthew. If He did have a passage like this in mind He could have just as easily referenced the passage from Numbers. As it is, neither passage has anything to do with the church standing against the gates of Hades.

tz620q · Feb 17, 2015

CaliforniaJosiah said:
Our Catholic friend....

1. List for us the 300+ times the unique, current RCC set of DEUTERO books are QUOTED in the NT (be sure to note the quote marks).

2. Prove that being quoted equals offical canonization of the book wherein that quote is found specifically as inspired Scripture.

3. Prove that ALL the books the current RC Denomination uniquely regards as DEUTERO canonical are quoted in the NT - but only they, not any other.

I'll await that. With considerable curiosity.

.

So you want us to prove a point that we don't agree with. That would be argument past the point of agreement. By the way, I am still wondering what your criteria would be for canonization, since you don't accept quotation as one of those criteria?

tz620q · Feb 17, 2015

bbbbbbb said:
With seven pairs of alleged quotations of the deuterocanonical books by Jesus in the Gospels disproven and no comments to the contrary, we will now turn to the eighth -

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus' reference to the "power of death" and "gates of Hades" references Wisdom 16:13.

Since the original list calls it a reference, why do you insist it is an alleged quotation?

bbbbbbb said:
Matthew 16:13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, Who do people say that the Son of Man is? 14 And they said, Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets. 15 He *said to them, But who do you say that I am? 16 Simon Peter answered, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus said to him, Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven. 20 Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.

Here is the well-known passage in which Jesus states that the gates of Hades (or hell) shall not overpower the church.

5 When terrible, fierce snakes attacked your people and were killing them with their poison, you did not remain angry long enough to destroy your people. 6 This trouble lasted for only a little while, as a warning. Then you gave them a healing symbol, the bronze snake, to remind them of what your Law requires. 7 If a person looked at that symbol, he was cured of the snakebitenot by what he saw, but by you, the savior of all mankind. 8 By doing this, you also convinced our enemies that you are the one who rescues people from every evil. 9 Our enemies died from the bites of locusts and flies; no way was found to cure them, because they deserved to be punished by such creatures. 10 But even poisonous snakes could not overcome your people, because you had mercy, helped them, and cured them. 11 They were bitten so that they would remember your commands, but they were quickly rescued, in order to keep them from forgetting you completely and depriving themselves of your kindness. 12 No medicine or ointment cured them. They were restored to health by your word, O Lord, the word which heals all humanity. 13 You have power over life and death; you can bring a person to the brink of death and back again. 14 A wicked person may kill someone, but cannot bring the dead person back to life or rescue a soul imprisoned in the world of the dead.

This passage from Wisdom is a summary of the passage from Numbers 21:6-9 when the Lord caused poisonous snakes to kill the Israelites and commanded Moses to make a bronze snake in response. There are actually more pertinent passages in the gospels which relate to the passage in Numbers and here in Wisdom. The final verse here does mention "the world of the dead" which is actually a more accurate translation than "power of death" in other translations. In either case, there is no direct application to Jesus' words in Matthew. If He did have a passage like this in mind He could have just as easily referenced the passage from Numbers. As it is, neither passage has anything to do with the church standing against the gates of Hades.

The passage in Numbers 21 4-9:

The Bronze Serpent.
"From Mount Hor they set out by way of the Red Sea, to bypass the land of Edom, but the peoples patience was worn out by the journey; so the people complained against God and Moses, Why have you brought us up from Egypt to die in the wilderness, where there is no food or water? We are disgusted with this wretched food!

So the LORD sent among the people seraph serpents, which bite the people so that many of the Israelites died.

Then the people came to Moses and said, We have sinned in complaining against the LORD and you. Pray to the LORD to take the serpents from us.

So Moses prayed for the people, and the LORD said to Moses: Make a seraph and mount it on a pole, and everyone who has been bitten will look at it and recover.

Accordingly Moses made a bronze serpent and mounted it on a pole, and whenever the serpent bit someone, the person looked at the bronze serpent and recovered."

This sparse passage makes it seem like Moses made some type of magical symbol that was the source of the cure. Wisdom clarifies this point in 16:7 when it states, If a person looked at that symbol, he was cured of the snakebitenot by what he saw, but by you, the savior of all mankind.

Is not the author of Wisdom referring to the savior of mankind, Jesus Christ?

Jesus made this point quite clear when he said to Nicodemus in John 3:14-15, And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

So Christ's body on the cross becomes the symbol for power over death. If you have ever been to a Catholic Mass, the first thing in the procession into the church is a crucifix mounted on a pole to remind us of this fact.

But is not the church referred to in many places as the body of Christ. So the church joins with Christ in his salvific work and becomes a symbol to people to which they go to experience the mysteries of God's power on earth. Just as the bronze serpent by itself was of no value to the Israelites, so the Church without Christ is of no value to it's people.

That is what Christ was promising Peter in Matthew. That even after Christ's death, resurrection, and ascension that they would not be orphans. There is an old saying that Christianity is only one generation away from becoming extinct. So Christ reassures Peter by saying, "I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it."

At the end of Matthew, he reassures them again in Chapter 28:18, All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.

So where is the bronze serpent today that we look to to heal us of our ills? Moses carried that symbol before for the Israelites. Who carries that symbol today or is it just chance that Christ links his power over death to the giving of the keys to Peter?

CaliforniaJosiah · Feb 17, 2015

tz620q said:
Josiah said:

Our Catholic friend....

1. List for us the 300+ times the unique, current RCC set of DEUTERO books are QUOTED in the NT (be sure to note the quote marks).

2. Prove that being quoted equals offical canonization of the book wherein that quote is found specifically as inspired Scripture.

3. Prove that ALL the books the current RC Denomination uniquely regards as DEUTERO canonical are quoted in the NT - but only they, not any other.

I'll await that. With considerable curiosity.

.

Click to expand...

you don't accept quotation

What quotation?

.

GratiaCorpusChristi · Feb 17, 2015

There's a whole lot of confusion in this thread between the "quote" and "allusion."

tz620q · Feb 17, 2015

CaliforniaJosiah said:
What quotation?
.

You've pared my question down to insensibility. So I will ask it for a third time, what are the criteria that you would suggest we use to determine canonicity?

tz620q · Feb 17, 2015

GratiaCorpusChristi said:
There's a whole lot of confusion in this thread between the "quote" and "allusion."

I thought the same thing. If we used this sort of strict hermeneutics on the rest of the OT, we would end up with a much smaller Bible. After all, what is so magical about book designations, I contend that if a passage isn't quoted that it be removed.

CaliforniaJosiah · Feb 17, 2015

tz620q said:
You've pared my question down to insensibility. So I will ask it for a third time, what are the criteria that you would suggest we use to determine canonicity?

I'm discussing the point of the Catholic poster that there are 300+ QUOTES from the unique set of DEUTERO books currently embraced by the RCC in the NT.... and the point that THUS all these (but only these) books should be accepted.

You've now repeatedly affirmed the "quote" and "quotation" point of that.

.

bbbbbbb · Feb 17, 2015

tz620q said:
You've pared my question down to insensibility. So I will ask it for a third time, what are the criteria that you would suggest we use to determine canonicity?

If you wish to discuss canonicity there is another board for that. This thread is not about canonicity, but it is about the claim made by BarryatLake that there are over 300 references to the DC in the NT. Specifically, we are discussing a set of references he has provided for us.

With eight pairs of alleged quotations of the deutercanonical books by Jesus in the Gospels disproven and no comments to the contrary, we will now turn to the ninth -

Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.

Matthew 22:23 On that day some Sadducees (who say there is no resurrection) came to Jesus and questioned Him, 24 asking, Teacher, Moses said, If a man dies having no children, his brother as next of kin shall marry his wife, and raise up children for his brother. 25 Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and died, and having no children left his wife to his brother; 26 so also the second, and the third, down to the seventh. 27 Last of all, the woman died. 28 In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had married her.
29 But Jesus answered and said to them, You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31 But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: 32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living. 33 When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

This is the story about Jesus explaining why there is no marriage in heaven and why the Saducees did not understand it. It entails seven brother who ended up having been married to the same wife.

Tobit 3:7 That same day in the city of Ecbatana in Media, it happened that Sarah, the daughter of a man named Raguel, was insulted by one of her father's servant women. 8 Sarah had been married seven times, but the evil demon, Asmodeus, killed each husband before the marriage could be consummated. The servant woman said to Sarah,
You husband killer! Look at you! You've already had seven husbands, but not one of them lived long enough to give you a son. 9 Why should you take it out on us? Why don't you go and join your dead husbands? I hope we never see a child of yours!

10 Sarah was so depressed that she burst into tears and went upstairs determined to hang herself. But when she thought it over, she said to herself,
No, I won't do it! People would insult my father and say,
You had only one child, a daughter whom you loved dearly, but she hanged herself because she felt so miserable. Such grief would bring my gray-haired father to his grave, and I would be responsible. I won't kill myself; I'll just beg the Lord to let me die. Then I won't have to listen to those insults any longer!

This is a story about a woman named Sarah and her troubles, having been married to seven brothers consecutively. She was not unlike Hannah, the mother of Samuel, in her misery (see I Samuel 1). This Sarah had a daughter unlike the woman in Matthew who had had no children.

Afterward, Raguel slaughtered a ram from the flock and gave them a warm reception. When they had washed, bathed, and reclined to eat and drink, Tobiah said to Raphael, Brother Azariah, ask Raguel to give me my kinswoman Sarah. 10Raguel overheard the words; so he said to the young man: Eat and drink and be merry tonight, for no man has a greater right to marry my daughter Sarah than you, brother. Besides, not even I have the right to give her to anyone but you, because you are my closest relative. However, son, I must frankly tell you the truth. 11I have given her in marriage to seven husbands who were kinsmen of ours, and all died on the very night they approached her. But now, son, eat and drink. The Lord will look after you both. Tobiah answered, I will neither eat nor drink anything here until you settle what concerns me. Raguel said to him: I will do it. She is yours as decreed by the Book of Moses. It has been decided in heaven that she be given to you! Take your kinswoman; from now on you are her brother, and she is your sister.* She is given to you today and here ever after. May the Lord of heaven prosper you both tonight, son, and grant you mercy and peace. 12Then Raguel called his daughter Sarah, and she came to him. He took her by the hand and gave her to Tobiah with these words: Take her according to the law. According to the decree written in the Book of Moses I give her to be your wife. Take her and bring her safely to your father. And may the God of heaven grant both of you a safe journey in peace!

This passage is a follow-up to the previous passage where Sarah is remarried to another man.

All of the passages are based on the teaching from the law of Moses concerning Levirate marriage and, thus, take their inspiration from that source.

tz620q · Feb 18, 2015

bbbbbbb said:
With eight pairs of alleged quotations of the deutercanonical books by Jesus in the Gospels disproven and no comments to the contrary, we will now turn to the ninth -

This thread is just a cut and paste from the previous one. Your above comment is untrue since I just posted a response to the previous text comparison. Also, you didn't even bother to correct your error from the previous thread, where I responded. So I will repeat, Sarah did not have a daughter, she was referring to herself in the third person in thinking about how her father would feel if she committed suicide. Since honest dialogue seems to be the last thing wanted in this thread, I will kindly bow out and leave you to your exercise.

bbbbbbb said:
Tobit 3:7 That same day in the city of Ecbatana in Media, it happened that Sarah, the daughter of a man named Raguel, was insulted by one of her father's servant women. 8 Sarah had been married seven times, but the evil demon, Asmodeus, killed each husband before the marriage could be consummated. The servant woman said to Sarah,
You husband killer! Look at you! You've already had seven husbands, but not one of them lived long enough to give you a son. 9 Why should you take it out on us? Why don't you go and join your dead husbands? I hope we never see a child of yours!

10 Sarah was so depressed that she burst into tears and went upstairs determined to hang herself. But when she thought it over, she said to herself,
No, I won't do it! People would insult my father and say,
You had only one child, a daughter whom you loved dearly, but she hanged herself because she felt so miserable. Such grief would bring my gray-haired father to his grave, and I would be responsible. I won't kill myself; I'll just beg the Lord to let me die. Then I won't have to listen to those insults any longer!

This is a story about a woman named Sarah and her troubles, having been married to seven brothers consecutively. She was not unlike Hannah, the mother of Samuel, in her misery (see I Samuel 1). This Sarah had a daughter unlike the woman in Matthew who had had no children.

bbbbbbb · Feb 18, 2015

This thread is just a cut and paste from the previous one. Your above comment is untrue since I just posted a response to the previous text comparison. Also, you didn't even bother to correct your error from the previous thread, where I responded. So I will repeat, Sarah did not have a daughter, she was referring to herself in the third person in thinking about how her father would feel if she committed suicide. Since honest dialogue seems to be the last thing wanted in this thread, I will kindly bow out and leave you to your exercise.

Originally Posted by bbbbbbb

Tobit 3:7 That same day in the city of Ecbatana in Media, it happened that Sarah, the daughter of a man named Raguel, was insulted by one of her father's servant women. 8 Sarah had been married seven times, but the evil demon, Asmodeus, killed each husband before the marriage could be consummated. The servant woman said to Sarah,
You husband killer! Look at you! You've already had seven husbands, but not one of them lived long enough to give you a son. 9 Why should you take it out on us? Why don't you go and join your dead husbands? I hope we never see a child of yours!

10 Sarah was so depressed that she burst into tears and went upstairs determined to hang herself. But when she thought it over, she said to herself,
No, I won't do it! People would insult my father and say,
You had only one child, a daughter whom you loved dearly, but she hanged herself because she felt so miserable. Such grief would bring my gray-haired father to his grave, and I would be responsible. I won't kill myself; I'll just beg the Lord to let me die. Then I won't have to listen to those insults any longer!

This is a story about a woman named Sarah and her troubles, having been married to seven brothers consecutively. She was not unlike Hannah, the mother of Samuel, in her misery (see I Samuel 1). This Sarah had a daughter unlike the woman in Matthew who had had no children."

Where did I say that Sarah had a daughter? The text plainly states that " Sarah (was) the daughter of a man named Raguel, " and that "Sarah had been married seven times, but the evil demon, Asmodeus, killed each husband before the marriage could be consummated. " It is impossible that she could have had a daughter (or a son) if none of her marriages had been consummated.

I do not see that she is the author here and is referring to herself in the third person. Could you show me where this is stated in the text?

The bottom line really is whether or not this is the text to which Jesus referred in his answer to the Pharisees concerning marriage in the resurrection. I do not see any connection, do you, other than the marriage to seven brother by the same lady.

bbbbbbb · Feb 18, 2015

With nine pairs of alleged quotations of the deutercanonical books by Jesus in the Gospels disproven and no comments to the contrary, we will now turn to the tenth -

Matt. 24:15 - the "desolating sacrilege" Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.

Matthew 24:15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.

In the famous Upper Room discourse of Matthew 24 Jesus remarks concerning the abomination of desolation, citing particularly his reference in Daniel. He makes no mention of any other reference, so one ought to believe that He was referring to Daniel.

I Maccabees 1:54 On the fifteenth day of the month of Kislev in the year 145, King Antiochus set up
The Awful Horror on the altar of the Temple, and pagan altars were built in the towns throughout Judea. 55 Pagan sacrifices were offered in front of houses and in the streets. 56 Any books of the Law which were found were torn up and burned, 57 and anyone who was caught with a copy of the sacred books or who obeyed the Law was put to death by order of the king. 58 Month after month these wicked people used their power against the Israelites caught in the towns.

II Maccabees 8:12 Judas learned that Nicanor was advancing with his army toward Judea, so he informed his men. 13 Some were cowardly and did not believe in the justice of God, and they ran away as fast as they could. 14 But others sold all their remaining possessions so that the Lord would consider them worthy to be saved from the godless Nicanor, who had sold them as slaves even before the battle had taken place. 15 They prayed that if God was not willing to do this for their sake alone, he might be willing to rescue them because of the covenants he had made with their ancestors, and because he, the great and wonderful God, had called them to be his people. 16 Judas brought together all 6,000 of his men and encouraged them not to be frightened or to flee in panic at the sight of the large number of Gentile troops who were marching against them without cause. Instead they should fight bravely, 17 never forgetting the crimes the Gentiles had committed against the Temple and how they had made Jerusalem suffer terribly and had done away with Jewish traditions.

The passages in Maccabees record the history of the Maccabeean Revolt. When Jesus spoke in the Upper Room that Revolt was history and not the yet-unfulfiled prophecy concerning the Great Tribulation that Jesus gave to His disciples.

barryatlake · Feb 18, 2015

bb, are you now also a linguistics expert on apocalyptic literature ? Post # 51 by tZ620q tells all.

bbbbbbb · Feb 18, 2015

barryatlake said:
bb, are you now also a linguistics expert on apocalyptic literature ? Post # 51 by tZ620q tells all.

Thank you for the pot shot. I have given up hope for any dialogue with yourself and trust that tZ620q will respond to my reply to his post in due time.

tz620q · Feb 19, 2015

bbbbbbb said:
This is a story about a woman named Sarah and her troubles, having been married to seven brothers consecutively. She was not unlike Hannah, the mother of Samuel, in her misery (see I Samuel 1). This Sarah had a daughter unlike the woman in Matthew who had had no children."

Where did I say that Sarah had a daughter? The text plainly states that " Sarah (was) the daughter of a man named Raguel, " and that "Sarah had been married seven times, but the evil demon, Asmodeus, killed each husband before the marriage could be consummated. " It is impossible that she could have had a daughter (or a son) if none of her marriages had been consummated.

Sorry for the snarky reply before. I bolded in the relevant quote above; but your clarification shows me that we were thinking the same way, that Sarah was childless at the time of her marriage to Tobiah. I agree. It is a small matter really and not pertinent to the comparison.

bbbbbbb said:
I do not see that she is the author here and is referring to herself in the third person. Could you show me where this is stated in the text?

It is in Tobit 3:10

Sarah was so depressed that she burst into tears and went upstairs determined to hang herself. But when she thought it over, she said to herself,
No, I won't do it! People would insult my father and say,
You had only one child, a daughter whom you loved dearly, but she hanged herself because she felt so miserable. Such grief would bring my gray-haired father to his grave, and I would be responsible. I won't kill myself; I'll just beg the Lord to let me die. Then I won't have to listen to those insults any longer!

bbbbbbb said:
The bottom line really is whether or not this is the text to which Jesus referred in his answer to the Pharisees concerning marriage in the resurrection. I do not see any connection, do you, other than the marriage to seven brother by the same lady.

I agree. We are left with two possible explanations. First, that the Sadducees had read Tobit and were using that story as a basis for their question or second, that their question was based on a purely hypothetical case that they had dreamed up on the spot. Here is my thinking on why I accept the first explanation. Jesus was known as a Rabbi and the rabbinical tradition on how to argue a point was to use scripture as the basis for one's argument, much like we do here. Also, it seems odd that they would use seven as the number of husbands for their hypothetical woman without a precedent. The point that they were trying to ask Jesus about could just have easily been made with two or three husbands and not the number seven which to them would have been a holy number.

Against this argument, I brought up in my previous response on the other thread, that the Sadducees would not have accepted Tobit as scripture, so it seems odd that they would reference it. Also, they did not believe in resurrection of the soul, so the whole premise of their question was not something that they would have agreed with.

In summary, I can see why you hold your opinion on this. I hope I have helped you see my side of the issue.

God be with you,
Byron

bbbbbbb · Feb 19, 2015

tz620q said:
Sorry for the snarky reply before. I bolded in the relevant quote above; but your clarification shows me that we were thinking the same way, that Sarah was childless at the time of her marriage to Tobiah. I agree. It is a small matter really and not pertinent to the comparison.

It is in Tobit 3:10

Sarah was so depressed that she burst into tears and went upstairs determined to hang herself. But when she thought it over, she said to herself,
No, I won't do it! People would insult my father and say,
You had only one child, a daughter whom you loved dearly, but she hanged herself because she felt so miserable. Such grief would bring my gray-haired father to his grave, and I would be responsible. I won't kill myself; I'll just beg the Lord to let me die. Then I won't have to listen to those insults any longer!

I agree. We are left with two possible explanations. First, that the Sadducees had read Tobit and were using that story as a basis for their question or second, that their question was based on a purely hypothetical case that they had dreamed up on the spot. Here is my thinking on why I accept the first explanation. Jesus was known as a Rabbi and the rabbinical tradition on how to argue a point was to use scripture as the basis for one's argument, much like we do here. Also, it seems odd that they would use seven as the number of husbands for their hypothetical woman without a precedent. The point that they were trying to ask Jesus about could just have easily been made with two or three husbands and not the number seven which to them would have been a holy number.

Against this argument, I brought up in my previous response on the other thread, that the Sadducees would not have accepted Tobit as scripture, so it seems odd that they would reference it. Also, they did not believe in resurrection of the soul, so the whole premise of their question was not something that they would have agreed with.

In summary, I can see why you hold your opinion on this. I hope I have helped you see my side of the issue.

God be with you,
Byron

Thank you for your gracious reply. I now understand your thinking and do not see any serious difficulties with it.

bbbbbbb · Feb 20, 2015

We will now turn to the eleventh pair of citations -

Matt. 24:16 - let those "flee to the mountains" is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.

Matthew 24:15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25 Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. 27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

Please see the previous post for the tenth pair. It is vital that one understands that Jesus is uttering this as a prophecy of things to come, not as a reiteration of a historical event.

I Maccabees 2:1 In those days arose Mathathias the son of John, the son of Simeon, a priest of the sons of Joarib, from Jerusalem, and he abode in the mountain of Modin.
2 And he had five sons: John who was surnamed Gaddis:
3 And Simon, who was surnamed Thasi:
4 And Judas, who was called Machabeus:
5 And Eleazar, who was surnamed Abaron: and Jonathan, who was surnamed Apphus.
6 These saw the evils that were done in the people of Juda, and in Jerusalem.
7 And Mathathias said: Woe is me, wherefore was I born to see the ruin of my people, and the ruin of the holy city, and to dwell there, when it is given into the hands of the enemies?
8 The holy places are come into the hands of strangers: her temple is become as a man without honour.
9 The vessels of her glory are carried away captive: her old men are murdered in the streets, and her young men are fallen by the sword of the enemies.
10 What nation hath not inherited her kingdom, and gotten of her spoils?
11 All her ornaments are taken away. She that was free is made a slave.
12 And behold our sanctuary, and our beauty, and our glory is laid waste, and the Gentiles have defiled them.
13 To what end then should we live any longer?
14 And Mathathias and his sons rent their garments, and they covered themselves with haircloth, and made great lamentation.
15 And they that were sent from king Antiochus came thither, to compel them that were fled into the city of Modin, to sacrifice, and to burn incense, and to depart from the law of God.
16 And many of the people of Israel consented, and came to them: but Mathathias and his sons stood firm.
17 And they that were sent from Antiochus, answering, said to Mathathias: Thou art a ruler, and an honourable, and great man in this city, and adorned with sons, and brethren.
18 Therefore come thou first, and obey the king's commandment, as all nations have done, and the men of Juda, and they that remain in Jerusalem: and thou, and thy sons, shall be in the number of the king's friends, and enriched with gold, and silver, and many presents.
19 Then Mathathias answered, and said with a loud voice: Although all nations obey king Antiochus, so as to depart every man from the service of the law of his fathers, and consent to his commandments:
20 I and my sons, and my brethren will obey the law of our fathers.
21 God be merciful unto us: it is not profitable for us to forsake the law, and the justices of God:
22 We will not hearken to the words of king Antiochus, neither will we sacrifice, and transgress the commandments of our law, to go another way.
23 Now as he left off speaking these words, there came a certain Jew in the sight of all to sacrifice to the idols upon the altar in the city of Modin, according to the king's commandment.
24 And Mathathias saw and was grieved, and his reins trembled, and his wrath was kindled according to the judgment of the law, and running upon him he slew him upon the altar:
25 Moreover the man whom king Antiochus had sent, who compelled them to sacrifice, he slew at the same time, and pulled down the altar.
26 And shewed zeal for the law, as Phinees did by Zamri the son of Salomi.
27 And Mathathias cried out in the city with a loud voice, saying: Every one that hath zeal for the law, and maintaineth the testament, let him follow me.
28 So he, and his sons fled into the mountains, and left all that they had in the city.
29 Then many that sought after judgment, and justice, went down into the desert:
30 And they abode there, they and their children, and their wives, and their cattle: because afflictions increased upon them.
31 And it was told to the king's men, and to the army that was in Jerusalem in the city of David, that certain men who had broken the king's commandment, were gone away into the secret places in the wilderness, and that many were gone after them.
32 And forthwith they went out towards them, and made war against them on the sabbath day,
33 And they said to them: Do you still resist? come forth, and do according to the edict of king Antiochus, and you shall live.
34 And they said: We will not come forth, neither will we obey the king's edict, to profane the sabbath day.
35 And they made haste to give them battle.
36 But they answered them not, neither did they cast a stone at them, nor stopped up the secret places,
37 Saying: Let us all die in our innocency: and heaven and earth shall be witnesses for us, that you put us to death wrongfully.
38 So they gave them battle on the sabbath: and they were slain with their wives, and their children, and their cattle, to the number of a thousand persons.
39 And Mathathias and his friends heard of it, and they mourned for them exceedingly.

This passage is written in the past tense and is descriptive of an event that had already taken place, not an event that is yet future.

bbbbbbb · Feb 21, 2015

We will now turn to the twelfth pair -

Matt. 27:43 - if He is God's Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.

Matthew 27:38 At that time two robbers were crucified with Him, one on the right and one on the left. 39 And those passing by were hurling abuse at Him, wagging their heads 40 and saying, “You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross.” 41 In the same way the chief priests also, along with the scribes and elders, were mocking Him and saying, 42 “He saved others; He cannot save Himself. He is the King of Israel; let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe in Him. 43 He trusts in God; let God rescue Him now, if He delights in Him; for He said, ‘I am the Son of God.’” 44 The robbers who had been crucified with Him were also insulting Him with the same words.

The highlighted portion in red is a direct quotation from Psalm 22:8 (8 “Commit yourself to the Lord; let Him deliver him; Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him.&#8221

This is from Matthew's account of the crucifixion of Christ.

Wisdom 2:1For, not thinking rightly, they said among themselves:
“Brief and troubled is our lifetime;
there is no remedy for our dying,
nor is anyone known to have come back from Hades.
2For by mere chance were we born,
and hereafter we shall be as though we had not been;
Because the breath in our nostrils is smoke,
and reason a spark from the beating of our hearts,
3And when this is quenched, our body will be ashes
and our spirit will be poured abroad like empty air.
4Even our name will be forgotten in time,
and no one will recall our deeds.
So our life will pass away like the traces of a cloud,
and will be dispersed like a mist
Pursued by the sun’s rays
and overpowered by its heat.
5For our lifetime is the passing of a shadow;
and our dying cannot be deferred
because it is fixed with a seal; and no one returns.
6Come, therefore, let us enjoy the good things that are here,
and make use of creation with youthful zest.
7Let us have our fill of costly wine and perfumes,
and let no springtime blossom pass us by;
8let us crown ourselves with rosebuds before they wither.
9Let no meadow be free from our wantonness;
everywhere let us leave tokens of our merriment,
for this is our portion, and this our lot.
10Let us oppress the righteous poor;
let us neither spare the widow
nor revere the aged for hair grown white with time.
11But let our strength be our norm of righteousness;
for weakness proves itself useless.
12 Let us lie in wait for the righteous one, because he is annoying to us;
he opposes our actions,
Reproaches us for transgressions of the law
and charges us with violations of our training.
13He professes to have knowledge of God
and styles himself a child of the LORD.
14To us he is the censure of our thoughts;
merely to see him is a hardship for us,
15Because his life is not like that of others,
and different are his ways.
16He judges us debased;
he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure.
He calls blest the destiny of the righteous
and boasts that God is his Father.
17Let us see whether his words be true;
let us find out what will happen to him in the end.
18For if the righteous one is the son of God, God will help him
and deliver him from the hand of his foes.
19With violence and torture let us put him to the test
that we may have proof of his gentleness
and try his patience.
20Let us condemn him to a shameful death;
for according to his own words, God will take care of him.”
21These were their thoughts, but they erred;
for their wickedness blinded them,
22 And they did not know the hidden counsels of God;
neither did they count on a recompense for holiness
nor discern the innocent souls’ reward.
23For God formed us to be imperishable;
the image of his own nature he made us.
24But by the envy of the devil, death entered the world,
and they who are allied with him experience it.

Wisdom 2 is not a Messianic psalm, but contains elements of some Psalms related to the transitoriness of life (Psalm 49), the vanity of unbelievers (Psalm 73), life following death, and Psalm 22.

At best, one might say that the writer of Wisdom 2:18 took this from Psalm 22:8.

bbbbbbb · Feb 23, 2015

We now turn to the thirteenth pair -

Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus' description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.

Matthew 4:1 He began to teach again by the sea. And such a very large crowd gathered to Him that He got into a boat in the sea and sat down; and the whole crowd was by the sea on the land. 2 And He was teaching them many things in parables, and was saying to them in His teaching, 3 “Listen to this! Behold, the sower went out to sow; 4 as he was sowing, some seed fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Other seed fell on the rocky ground where it did not have much soil; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of soil. 6 And after the sun had risen, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. 7 Other seed fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked it, and it yielded no crop. 8 Other seeds fell into the good soil, and as they grew up and increased, they yielded a crop and produced thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold.” 9 And He was saying, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
10 As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, began asking Him about the parables. 11 And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12 so that while seeing, they may see and not perceive, and while hearing, they may hear and not understand, otherwise they might return and be forgiven.”
13 And He *said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How will you understand all the parables? 14 The sower sows the word. 15 These are the ones who are beside the road where the word is sown; and when they hear, immediately Satan comes and takes away the word which has been sown in them. 16 In a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; 17 and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away. 18 And others are the ones on whom seed was sown among the thorns; these are the ones who have heard the word, 19 but the worries of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20 And those are the ones on whom seed was sown on the good soil; and they hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold.”

This is the famous parable of the sower by Jesus in which he uses the analogy of the seed with the gospel and of various soil and plant conditions with the human response to the gospel.

Sirach 40:12 Nothing that comes from bribery or injustice will last, but the effects of loyalty will remain forever. 13 Wealth that has been obtained dishonestly is like a stream that runs full during a thunderstorm, 14 tumbling rocks along as it flows, but then suddenly goes dry. 15 The children of ungodly people will not leave large families; they are like plants trying to take root on rock, 16 like reeds along a river bank, withering before any other plant. 17 Acts of kindness and charity are as lasting as eternity.

The passage from Sirach, by contrast, is all about the difficulties and miseries of human life. It is not about the gospel at all. It describes the children of ungodly people as being like plants trying to take root on rock. There is no realistic connection between the passage in Sirach and the Parable of the Sower.

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