Deut 6:4 Shema Yisrael, YHVH Elohaneu YHVH echad.

[2ducklow]

See this post,

Sure no probelmo. I'll explain what he is saying once more.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]It is necessary here to distinguish between the terms "being" and "person." It would be a contradiction, obviously, to say that there are three beings within one being, or three persons within one person. So what is the difference? [/FONT]

what James is saying is that 3 in one is not a contradiction because the 3 are persons and the one is a being. He is saying that it would only be a contradiction if the 3 were beings and the one is a being, or if the 3 are persons and the one is a person. Ignoring the fact that a person is a being.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We clearly recognize the difference between being and person every day. We recognize what something is, yet we also recognize individuals within a classification. For example, we speak of the "being" of man---human being. A rock has "being"---the being of a rock, as does a cat, a dog, etc. Yet, we also know that there are personal attributes as well. That is, we recognize both "what" and "who" when we talk about a person.[/FONT]

Now he is saying that a persons is a what and a who, or man, further on he includes god and angels as persons. He is saying that a being, like a rock or a cat is just a what, cause it has no personal attributes..

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Bible tells us there are three classifications of personal beings---God, man, and angels. What is personality? The ability to have emotion, will, to express oneself. Rocks cannot speak. Cats cannot think of themselves over against others, and, say, work for the common good of "cat kind." Hence, we are saying that there is one eternal, infinite being of God ( a what 2dl), shared fully and completely by three persons (3 whos 2dl), Father, Son and Spirit. One what, three who's.[/FONT]

http://vintage.aomin.org/trinitydef.html


Now he changes his story and says the infinite being of God is just one what or a rock or cat like being that has no personal attributes. Previously he said God was a what and a who.

Now he expands his list of persons to include God and angels. And he is saying that God is a what (a being like a rock or a cat that has no personal attributes) shared by three whos (father ,son and holy ghost). So that means, according to his definition of a person as being a what and a who, that God the Father isn't a person but just the personal attribute portion of a person, , and God is the other part of the personal being, thus god + God the Father et. al. =God. So in summation he is saying god is a god (a what)+ 3 personal attributes, and God is a what and a who. He denies that god has any personality, and says that God has a personality, and denies that a person of god is a person. He is saying that God the Father is a personal attribute of God, not a person of god. so it's 3 personal attributes of God, not the 3 persons of God.
Now you can explain all the big words like you said you wanted to.
Quite honestly, I think you guys should be hiding this explanation of Trinity by James White. If t his is the best your top scholars can come up with, and it must be cause you guys are ooohing and ahhhing over it, then you best not try and explain it at all. James should have tooken his own advice as stated in the same source of his.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Jesus cannot be analyzed and calculated. But whoever speaks of him in human words is entering into the realm of "rational" speech. There is no unique language for the realm of the incalculable and the "irrational." Thus, where we express "eschatological history," the origin and the goal, God's reality in the man Jesus, our language collapses; it becomes paradoxical. We could also say that our language then expresses awe. It says those things which leave men "speechless." Its terms are not then a means for grasping but rather for making known that we have been grasped. It is not then a form of mastery, but testimony to the overpowering experience which has come upon man."[23][/FONT]

http://vintage.aomin.org/CHALC.html

So like ole James says, you shouldn't use human words to descibe Jesus. Wonder why he does then? So best bet is just say "Trinity can't be explain and don't ask me (that is you) to explain it just believe it and don't try an figure it out cause it can't be explained with human words. our top scholar told us so. so now let me explain it."

 

[2ducklow]

Sounds like he would make a good Catholic

there are some trinitarians that make a good show of defending trinity, like refrusrevlis in 'unique son' thread. well as good a show as one can with the illogical trinity doctrine. It's easier though just to call people names.

 

[GenemZ]

well that certainly explains what James white meant..

I got a question for you...

If there were no Son?

If there were no Holy Spirit?


Could you know God?

Using Scripture, show us how.


Thanks in advance... GeneZ




.

 

[GenemZ]

I would say Deut 6:4 lines up perfectly with Mark 12:29.

When translating God in the NT, is it referring to Elohiym at anytime, as Jesus would in essence be an "Elohiym" just as YHWH made Moshe an "Elohiym" to Pharaoh. Thoughts?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear-thou Yisra'el--YHWH, Elohiym-of-us, YHWH one. [Mark 12:29]

Mark 12:29 The yet JESUS answered him "that first of all the commandments 'be thou hearing! Israel-- LORD, the God of us, LORD one is'". [Exodus 6:4]

Can you please show us in Scripture, where it says anywhere? .....

"The Lord Father."

Show us, please.


Thanks in advance, GeneZ

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Can you please show us in Scripture, where it says anywhere? .....

"The Lord Father."

Show us, please.


Thanks in advance, GeneZ

Are you asking if JESUS referred to Himself as YHWH His Father? Not that I know of. 1 Corin 8:6 is interesting.
The wording shows ALL came from/out-of YHWH the Father, but it was THRU JESUS the ALL came. Will have to look at this more closely. Thoughts?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

1 Corin 8:6 to us one God the Father, out-of/from Whom are the all-things, and we into Him. And one Lord Jesus Christ thru Whom the all-things, and we thru Him.

John 17:11 And not still I-am in the world, and these in the world are, and I near/toward/proV <4314> Thee am coming........

 

[GenemZ]

Are you asking if JESUS referred to Himself as YHWH His Father? Not that I know of. 1 Corin 8:6 is interesting.
The wording shows ALL came from/out-of YHWH the Father, but it was THRU JESUS the ALL came. Will have to look at this more closely. Thoughts?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

1 Corin 8:6 to us one God the Father, out-of/from Whom are the all-things, and we into Him. And one Lord Jesus Christ thru Whom the all-things, and we thru Him.

John 17:11 And not still I-am in the world, and these in the world are, and I near/toward/proV <4314> Thee am coming........

You did not answer my question.

Stick to the question, please.

Yes? Or, no?

Can you show us anywhere in Scripture the words, "Lord Father?"

Try answering my question this time.

If you can not find it? Just say so.



Thanks in advance, GeneZ




.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Can you show us anywhere in Scripture the words, "Lord Father?"
Try answering my question this time.
If you can not find it? Just say so.
Thanks in advance, GeneZ

If you mean in the NT/NC, no I can't.

Only in the OT/OC when people are addressing YHWH as their Lord. Genesis 15:2 is one example. Thoughts?

Rotherham) Genesis 15:2 And Abram said, my-Lord/0136 'Adonay Yahweh/03069 Y@hovih, what canst thou give me, when, I, am going on childless,--and, the heir of my house, is Eliezer, of Damascus.

 

[GenemZ]

If you mean in the NT/NC, no I can't.

Only in the OT/OC when people are addressing YHWH as their Lord. Genesis 15:2 is one example. Thoughts?

That is one reason we can know Jesus is God. For we are told there is only ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism.

Genesis 18:1 (New American Standard Bible)

"Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day."





​

Young's Literal Translation, tells us what word in the Hebrew was translated LORD, in the NASB...



​

Genesis 18:1

"And Jehovah appeareth unto him among the oaks of Mamre, and he is sitting at the opening of the tent, about the heat of the day."
​

​

The Father can not be seen by anyone.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=6&verse=46&version=31&context=verse

John 6:46 (New International Version)
" No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father."
​

The Lord in this case had to be Jesus Christ in a pre-incarnate form. No man could not see the Father.


The Lord / Jehovah/Yaweh, of Israel was the pre-incarnate Christ.

Genesis 18:22 NASB
"Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the LORD."
​

If anyone is to see God, it must be done through Christ!

John 14:6 (New International Version)
"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
​

Jesus is God means to reveal himself to finite creatures.

John 14:9 (New International Version)
"Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?"
​

Anything you know about the Father? Has all come through Christ. All that you are using to try and claim that Jesus Christ is not God? Ironically, came through Christ.

If there were no Son? We would have nothing to say about God. For we could not discuss what we can not know. Therefore, the Son is God's own means to make himself known to us. The Son is God, being in a form that we can relate to.





Grace and peace, GeneZ



.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If there were no Son? We would have nothing to say about God. For we could not discuss what we can not know. Therefore, the Son is God's own means to make himself known to us. The Son is God, being in a form that we can relate to.

I believe I can relate to that.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the God of the Age, this, hath-blinded the minds of the faithless into the no to shine forth to-them the enlightening of the Good-News of the glory of the Christ, who is an Image of the God

 

[GenemZ]

I believe I can relate to that.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the God of the Age, this, hath-blinded the minds of the faithless into the no to shine forth to-them the enlightening of the Good-News of the glory of the Christ, who is an Image of the God

It goes beyond that, as well.

Hebrews 1:3 (New International Version)
"The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven."




​

The Son is God's means of making God known to us. Anything you know about God? Came by means of the courtesy of the Son.

If there were no Son? We would know NOTHING about God.

The Son is God being manifested in terms and realities that we can relate to in regards to knowing God.

Just for a moment. Remember the Invisible Man? They threw powder in the air so he could be detected. Was that powder the Invisible Man? No. It was powder. But, that powder was making the Invisible man known. Likewise. The Humanity of Christ in itself can not be God. But, like the powder that revealed the Invisible man? The Humanity is God's means of making Himself known to us. When I speak of his "Humanity," I refer not simply to his physical body. But to God's Eternally existing soul. The very same soul that entered into that body born of Mary and voluntarily took on the function as a man. Leaving behind him his right to the power to be God. So, he could live as a man, as to die for all men.

Leviticus 26:10-12 10

'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new.
Moreover, I will make My dwelling among you, and My soul will not reject you. 'I will also walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people."
​

Psalm 11:5

"Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and anyone loving violence his soul certainly hates."
​

Isaiah 1:14

"Your New Moon festivals and your appointed feasts my soul hates. They have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them."
​

Deity is not soul. Deity is Spirit. Many have yet to realize that Jesus did not first take on his soul when he was born to Mary. That he was uniquely Eternally existing with soul. A soul which was in complete union with Deity, and functioned as God in power, with human attributes in expression.

That is what makes the Son of God uniquely different than the Father. The Father has no need to express anything. He already lives as he knows all things are. Why get upset when he already knows the outcome in the end? The Father leaves all that simple stuff to the Son so we can get a feel for what God desires to unfold within the framework of time and space.

In Christ, GeneZ



.