Lilly of the Valley said:
You're missing the point, we make choices that appear to free because of cause and effect. In reality, are choices are not as free as people would presume they are.
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Lilly of the Valley said:Yes, cause and effect is a part of life......but that doesn't eliminate the fact that we make choices of our own will everyday.
D McCloud said:You're missing the point, we make choices that appear to free because of cause and effect. In reality, are choices are not as free as people would presume they are.
Lilly of the Valley said:Is it possible to provide scientific evidence for this?
David Gould said:Yes. Behaviour - which is where an idividual's choices become apparent to the rest of - can be checked against things like genetic make-up and social background. There are direct correlations between, for example, your social status and the likelihood that you will commit crime. There are similar genetic correlations - twin adoption studies have demonstrated that if your genetic parent is a criminal you are more likely to commit crime (the fact that the twin was adopted means that the parents they were raised by were not criminals) .
Now, we have a couple of options here: either it is purely coincidence that social status and genetics are correlated with criminal behaviour or social status and genetics cause criminal behaviour.
As more evidence that they are caused, people use these sorts of things - not the genetics stuff yet, but the social stuff - to plan cities, prisons, schools et cetera. If they were not causal factors, this would be a futile activity.
Lilly of the Valley said:Well, I don't think it's a coincidence, but I wouldn't say it causes it either.
Rich people do crimes just the same as poor people in a bad neighborhood...however the amounts can be different.
However, eventhough those things play a factor,
are the people still not willfully doing the actions of their own will?
Is the situation or environment forcing them to do the actions?
David Gould said:What do you mean by 'influencing'? In other words, how does having a particular gene sequence influence you without having a causal interaction?
Lilly of the Valley said:Is it possible to provide scientific evidence for this?
Lilly of the Valley said:I'm not talking about genes here, I'm mostly talking about environmental and human interaction things.
David Gould said:When you talk about 'influence' do you mean for example, that enviroment X influences you such that are more likely to do behaviour Y than those not subject to environment X?
Lilly of the Valley said:The problem w/ this is that there is no responsibility on the person's part. If someon kills someone...it's not their fault...they didn't choose that, it was the environment and such...or genetics......Why should people get arrested then...it's not their fault...they didn't choose that course of action?
David Gould said:If a comet is heading towards earth, wouldn't we do our best to prevent it from hitting, even if that meant destroying it?
The problem is, you - and most other people - are still stuck with the idea that prison and the death penalty are about punishing people. The simple fact is that prison and the death penalty are mainly about keeping people who are prone to anti-social behaviour separated from society.
In other words, I would never punish anyone. However, that does not mean that I would never lock anyone up.
Lilly of the Valley said:Yes.
Lilly of the Valley said:What about the judicial system and courts and judges. They judge and punish and such.
What are fines for then? What about stuff like that that doesn't involve just being locked up?
Or what about just staying in jail for a few months then released. They are going back out w/ that "anti-social" behavior...
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