Determinism- what is it, and is it plausible?

[TricksterWolf]

Same here trickster, but I'm not so hardline.

"Hard determinism" is just a term that means "I don't need to tack on a special clause to determinism to allow for social responsibility".

There's another breed of determinism called "soft determinism", that is essentially the same as hard determinism except that it says people are still responsible for their actions...which isn't really a necessary statement, because hard determinism never implies that people aren't responsible. So soft determinism has few proponents because it's silly.

These are older definitions, though, so they may have changed.

Trickster

 

[TricksterWolf]

if we have free will, the ability to effect the outcome, then determinism is not possible.

Why not? Computer programs have the ability to effect the outcome of their execution; in fact, that's a program's most defining characteristic: what it does. If computer programs couldn't affect outcomes, then they wouldn't be useful at all. But programs certainly are deterministic. They lack "free will" only in that they are simple enough that we can predetermine what will happen (though this is not the case in larger systems...). Ability to affect outcome doesn't put a wrench into the argument for determinism.

Trickster

 

[phsyxx]

Why not? Computer programs have the ability to effect the outcome of their execution; in fact, that's a program's most defining characteristic: what it does. If computer programs couldn't affect outcomes, then they wouldn't be useful at all. But programs certainly are deterministic. They lack "free will" only in that they are simple enough that we can predetermine what will happen (though this is not the case in larger systems...). Ability to affect outcome doesn't put a wrench into the argument for determinism.

Trickster

Ok...
so what are people to God?

I mean, if machines to the creators are predictable enough...
then surely the greater distance in knowledge and power between God and man means that God can predict and see all that man would ever do.


God exists in the eternal now.
He sees everything in terms of all dimensions, height, width, length, weight and time. (and others?)

Which means that all of your actions are set and pre-determined.
That means- you cannot change the route of your life.


However, no-one other than God can see all this, so does it really make any difference to how random and chaotic and free your life seems?

 

[elman]

Why not? Computer programs have the ability to effect the outcome of their execution; in fact, that's a program's most defining characteristic: what it does. If computer programs couldn't affect outcomes, then they wouldn't be useful at all. But programs certainly are deterministic. They lack "free will" only in that they are simple enough that we can predetermine what will happen (though this is not the case in larger systems...). Ability to affect outcome doesn't put a wrench into the argument for determinism.

Trickster

In order to be able to effect the outcome one must have the ability to change it's direction if one does not act.

 

[TricksterWolf]

Which means that all of your actions are set and pre-determined.

Yes.

That means- you cannot change the route of your life.

No. It means that the changes you make, which are still made by you and are under your control, are pre-determined.

The paradox you're envisioning only exists if you know future events, because then you know what will happen and are thus powerless to change a known outcome. If you don't know your own future, free will exists, whether or not predestination exists; you can still change events however you wish.

Trickster

 

[TricksterWolf]

In order to be able to effect the outcome one must have the ability to change it's direction if one does not act.

I'm confused by this last comment; can you rephrase please?

Trickster

 

[elman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by elman
In order to be able to effect the outcome one must have the ability to change it's direction if one does not act.

I'm confused by this last comment; can you rephrase please?

Trickster

In order to be able to effect the outcome one must have the ability to change what would happen but for the action of the one having the ability to effect the outcome. If the outcome is going to be the exact same wheather or not one acts, then there is no free will.

 

[TricksterWolf]

In order to be able to effect the outcome one must have the ability to change what would happen but for the action of the one having the ability to effect the outcome. If the outcome is going to be the exact same wheather or not one acts, then there is no free will.

Ah, but the outcome isn't going to be at all the same whether or not one acts. One's actions may have a dramatic effect on outcome. Predestination does not change this, because it doesn't only imply that the outcome is determinable; it implies that our actions are as well. But as long as we don't have that knowledge (which is logically impossible for us to obtain, due to the selfsame paradox), then our choices indeed matter.

Trickster

 

[pneo]

Predestination does not change this, because it doesn't only imply that the outcome is determinable; it implies that our actions are as well. But as long as we don't have that knowledge (which is logically impossible for us to obtain, due to the selfsame paradox), then our choices indeed matter.

One way to think about this is to ask whether you can (in the present) change your actions in the past. Ie., can I change the fact that I caused a car accident this past weekend?

No, I cannot.

Does that make me any less responsible for the car accident?

No, it does not.

Does that mean I was not a causal factor in the car accident?

No, it does not.

The only difference between *our* past and *our* future is that we know our past. This is also a fine way of looking at the relationship between determinism and an omniscient being (God). God, outside of time, sees all of history in the same way that we see our past.

(Now the relationship between omniscience and omnipotence creates its own set of paradoxes, which I will leave as an exercise for the reader.)

 

[phsyxx]

Yes.

No. It means that the changes you make, which are still made by you and are under your control, are pre-determined.

The paradox you're envisioning only exists if you know future events, because then you know what will happen and are thus powerless to change a known outcome. If you don't know your own future, free will exists, whether or not predestination exists; you can still change events however you wish.

Trickster

May I quote myself, the part of the post you seem to have missed posting, supposedly disagreeing with me, on a point, before reading:

However, no-one other than God can see all this, so does it really make any difference to how random and chaotic and free your life seems?

You cannot change YOUR OUTCOME in Godly terms, but in your own terms, you have freewill.

 

[TricksterWolf]

May I quote myself, the part of the post you seem to have missed posting, supposedly disagreeing with me, on a point, before reading:

However, no-one other than God can see all this, so does it really make any difference to how random and chaotic and free your life seems?

You cannot change YOUR OUTCOME in Godly terms, but in your own terms, you have freewill.

I agree with the last sentence, though "Godly terms" are impossbly far beyond my understanding.

Not only "Godly terms", but historical terms too. Someday your outcome will be known (such as cause of death); that doesn't mean you didn't have free will to act.

Trickster