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Desperately seeking the truth.

Truthseeker76

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Hi, hope I am posing these questions to the right forum. I really am seeking answers. I want to follow what is true,not what is false. If I am not in the right forum, please direct me to the right one. OK, here is my first question:

Genesis 29 states seed bearing plants,fruit trees for humans and grasses and green plants for animals. Does that mean we were all supposed to be vegan or vegetarians ?
Why would God place the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden,knowing we would fall? Yes,I know he wants us to love him of our freewill,but does that not seem selfish,knowing all the pain and suffering in the world? It says we were born into sin. How is that fair? I would have liked to have chosen for myself. I would have chose to not know and just leave in peace and harmony in heaven.I was always told that if you loved God and followed him ,that Satan cannot touch you. The story of Job I cannot resolve in my mind,no matter how hard I try. He loved God, and God let Satan hurt him. Yes,he got back tenfold what he lost,but did he not love the wife and children he lost. Does that not seem a game between him and Satan. He did not have to prove himself to Satan,he is God.There are other instances where a guy is picking up sticks on the Sabbath and God kills him,and another man steady's the Ark of the Covenant and God strikes him down. Does that not seem ridiculous? Why, if it is something so minor ,would he do that? Now, that Jesus paid for our sins,we can do 1,000 times worse than that and be forgiven. That just does not seem right! I mean Adam and Eve ate a piece of fruit for pete's sake, I know that it was the disobedience of it, but because of that,we have murder,rape,and much worse. Does that not seem lame and selfish? What about this tree of Life, what if we had eaten from it first? Why did he create our bodies to defecate,if we are in his image,does that mean he defecates. it hard for me to think of Jesus doing this. Did Jesus get tempted to lust after women,if so,would that be considered incest because we are his children. I am very confused!
 
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Truthseeker76

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Also, it states that God made people in his image,and he patterned them after himself male and female,if so is he both male and female,or neither? It also states that God said it was not good for man to be alone so he would make a companion for him. So God formed animals and birds, but obviously none of these could be a companion to him. Why,did he just not make Eve in the first place? What would have happened if they ate from the tree of life first? Or they had eaten it after,before god came into the garden? Where is this tree of life now?
 
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unkern

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We were originally vegans before the fall, It is still easily possible to be a vegan, but there are alot of benefits to eating certain meats especially the ease of a planned meal.

I cant give you the perfect answer why God put the tree in the garden, I can give you several answers i know of. 1. He did it to give us free will to choose him 2. The tree was for the angels to eat of 3. The devil put it there. I do not know the real answer because this is still something im studying. However, What would it be like if we did not have the freedom to choose whether or not to love him or listen to him, you would not have real love. I also would've like to have a choice but I know if it was me and my wife we would've done the same thing.

I cannot answer the things of job just yet.

Now the biggest thing about the old testament was how God looked on the heart. For instance David had his heart on God and was able to be forgiven for his huge mistakes, but other kings were not forgiven for theirs. Thats because there heart was not on the lord.

Even before we had Jesus we had alot of murder and rape, like the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. David committed adultery and murder and was forgiven just like you can be forgiven now. All will face a judgement for those sins if not forgiven.

Being in the image of God does not mean looking like him and such, it means he loves so we love, he creates so we create, he gives so we give, etc. I do find it funny to imagine that Jesus defecated, but he was made 100% man. Jesus was also 100% God so he did not lust or sin at all.

God is both man and woman and more, It needed an explanation why eve was created. God did just all of a sudden enter the garden, God was the garden. I dont know where the tree is now, probably long gone.

I probably didnt answer all your questions, because they were all over, but I hope that helped
 
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unkern

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We were originally vegans before the fall, It is still easily possible to be a vegan, but there are alot of benefits to eating certain meats especially the ease of a planned meal.

I cant give you the perfect answer why God put the tree in the garden, I can give you several answers i know of. 1. He did it to give us free will to choose him 2. The tree was for the angels to eat of 3. The devil put it there. I do not know the real answer because this is still something im studying. However, What would it be like if we did not have the freedom to choose whether or not to love him or listen to him, you would not have real love. I also would've like to have a choice but I know if it was me and my wife we would've done the same thing.

I cannot answer the things of job just yet.

Now the biggest thing about the old testament was how God looked on the heart. For instance David had his heart on God and was able to be forgiven for his huge mistakes, but other kings were not forgiven for theirs. Thats because there heart was not on the lord.

Even before we had Jesus we had alot of murder and rape, like the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. David committed adultery and murder and was forgiven just like you can be forgiven now. All will face a judgement for those sins if not forgiven.

Being in the image of God does not mean looking like him and such, it means he loves so we love, he creates so we create, he gives so we give, etc. I do find it funny to imagine that Jesus defecated, but he was made 100% man. Jesus was also 100% God so he did not lust or sin at all.

God is both man and woman and more, It needed an explanation why eve was created. God did just all of a sudden enter the garden, God was the garden. I dont know where the tree is now, probably long gone.

I probably didnt answer all your questions, because they were all over, but I hope that helped
 
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OldChurchGuy

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Hi, hope I am posing these questions to the right forum. I really am seeking answers. I want to follow what is true,not what is false. If I am not in the right forum, please direct me to the right one. OK, here is my first question:

Genesis 29 states seed bearing plants,fruit trees for humans and grasses and green plants for animals. Does that mean we were all supposed to be vegan or vegetarians ?
Why would God place the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden,knowing we would fall? Yes,I know he wants us to love him of our freewill,but does that not seem selfish,knowing all the pain and suffering in the world? It says we were born into sin. How is that fair? I would have liked to have chosen for myself. I would have chose to not know and just leave in peace and harmony in heaven.I was always told that if you loved God and followed him ,that Satan cannot touch you. The story of Job I cannot resolve in my mind,no matter how hard I try. He loved God, and God let Satan hurt him. Yes,he got back tenfold what he lost,but did he not love the wife and children he lost. Does that not seem a game between him and Satan. He did not have to prove himself to Satan,he is God.There are other instances where a guy is picking up sticks on the Sabbath and God kills him,and another man steady's the Ark of the Covenant and God strikes him down. Does that not seem ridiculous? Why, if it is something so minor ,would he do that? Now, that Jesus paid for our sins,we can do 1,000 times worse than that and be forgiven. That just does not seem right! I mean Adam and Eve ate a piece of fruit for pete's sake, I know that it was the disobedience of it, but because of that,we have murder,rape,and much worse. Does that not seem lame and selfish? What about this tree of Life, what if we had eaten from it first? Why did he create our bodies to defecate,if we are in his image,does that mean he defecates. it hard for me to think of Jesus doing this. Did Jesus get tempted to lust after women,if so,would that be considered incest because we are his children. I am very confused!

Genesis 29 states seed bearing plants,fruit trees for humans and grasses and green plants for animals. Does that mean we were all supposed to be vegan or vegetarians ?

Interesting question. My understanding is that the answer is no because of all the references to eating meat (the prodigal son, Abraham feeding the strangers, for example) but I may be biased as I am an unashamed carnivore. :)

Why would God place the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden,knowing we would fall? Yes,I know he wants us to love him of our freewill,but does that not seem selfish,knowing all the pain and suffering in the world? It says we were born into sin. How is that fair? I would have liked to have chosen for myself. I would have chose to not know and just leave in peace and harmony in heaven.I was always told that if you loved God and followed him ,that Satan cannot touch you.

Much depends on how one interprets the Bible. I'm not sure the question can be answered satisfactorilly regardless of interpretation. For me, I don't take the story literally but as an attempt to explain why evil exists in the world.

The story of Job I cannot resolve in my mind,no matter how hard I try. He loved God, and God let Satan hurt him. Yes,he got back tenfold what he lost,but did he not love the wife and children he lost. Does that not seem a game between him and Satan. He did not have to prove himself to Satan,he is God.

As you can imagine, Job has been a head scratcher since it was written. There is a theory that this story is an attempt to explore that age old problem of bad things happening to good people. After all is said and done, Job concludes there is no simple answer as he does not have the mind of God.

There are other instances where a guy is picking up sticks on the Sabbath and God kills him,and another man steady's the Ark of the Covenant and God strikes him down. Does that not seem ridiculous? Why, if it is something so minor ,would he do that? Now, that Jesus paid for our sins,we can do 1,000 times worse than that and be forgiven. That just does not seem right! I mean Adam and Eve ate a piece of fruit for pete's sake, I know that it was the disobedience of it, but because of that,we have murder,rape,and much worse. Does that not seem lame and selfish? What about this tree of Life, what if we had eaten from it first?

It is my understanding the story of the two men dying from seemingly simple offenses was to illustrate God's power. The first was due to disobeience and the second was from trying to help God. The Ark was considered to be Holy and therefore was not to be touched regardless of the good intentions of the person touching it.

It is interesting to speculate on how things might have changed if Eve had eaten from the tree of eternal life since there was no prohibition against it. Such is life. :)

Why did he create our bodies to defecate,if we are in his image,does that mean he defecates. it hard for me to think of Jesus doing this. Did Jesus get tempted to lust after women,if so,would that be considered incest because we are his children. I am very confused!

Interesting question. Not sure I have an answer. If I come up with one I will post it.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
 
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Jayangel81

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I was a bit mind boggled about the story of Job personally. It bothered me a bit but we dont know why God lets certain things happen. He may or may not reveal it to a certain person in this lifetime. Whats most important is that we trust God that He has all our best interests at heart. And things do have a reason for happening.

Im happy to hear you are trying to make your way back to the Lord. And all of your questions were good questions, we just may not know for sure why exactly :)

Dont let that discourage you either, it is good to answer questions. The bible is full of knowledge just waiting to be explored, but in the right context of it.
 
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Jon0388g

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Hi, hope I am posing these questions to the right forum. I really am seeking answers. I want to follow what is true,not what is false. If I am not in the right forum, please direct me to the right one. OK, here is my first question:

Genesis 29 states seed bearing plants,fruit trees for humans and grasses and green plants for animals. Does that mean we were all supposed to be vegan or vegetarians ?
Why would God place the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden,knowing we would fall? Yes,I know he wants us to love him of our freewill,but does that not seem selfish,knowing all the pain and suffering in the world? It says we were born into sin. How is that fair? I would have liked to have chosen for myself. I would have chose to not know and just leave in peace and harmony in heaven.I was always told that if you loved God and followed him ,that Satan cannot touch you. The story of Job I cannot resolve in my mind,no matter how hard I try. He loved God, and God let Satan hurt him. Yes,he got back tenfold what he lost,but did he not love the wife and children he lost. Does that not seem a game between him and Satan. He did not have to prove himself to Satan,he is God.There are other instances where a guy is picking up sticks on the Sabbath and God kills him,and another man steady's the Ark of the Covenant and God strikes him down. Does that not seem ridiculous? Why, if it is something so minor ,would he do that? Now, that Jesus paid for our sins,we can do 1,000 times worse than that and be forgiven. That just does not seem right! I mean Adam and Eve ate a piece of fruit for pete's sake, I know that it was the disobedience of it, but because of that,we have murder,rape,and much worse. Does that not seem lame and selfish? What about this tree of Life, what if we had eaten from it first? Why did he create our bodies to defecate,if we are in his image,does that mean he defecates. it hard for me to think of Jesus doing this. Did Jesus get tempted to lust after women,if so,would that be considered incest because we are his children. I am very confused!



Hi Truthseeker!



I am very surprised at your honesty. It is not often on these forums I come across a person like you, so I'd be very happy to discuss these issues with you and many more. I too am a seeker for truth and I believe I have found that in Jesus Christ and the Bible. I don't expect you to believe that on surface reading, but I do believe in the promises that Christ made, and He said "seek, and ye shall find". A blatant part of your post stuck out for me, and that was not only that you are honestly seeking for truth, but you do not want to follow what is false. This is certainly an impressive character feat! :)



I'll be glad to answer your first question. As you've correctly noted, the original diet for humans consisted of fruit, vegetables, nuts, grains, etc. Even the animals were vegetarians! The Bible tells us that God allowed humans to eat meat (and only certain types called 'clean' meats) only after the Flood, whereby obviously all vegetation and plant life had been destroyed.


It would seem obvious therefore that meat-eating was not a part of God's original plan, and only introduced it after the world was destroyed by water. Are we still supposed to eat meat? I wouldn't go as far to say it was a sin to do so, but I believe God wants us to get back to the great Original as it existed in Eden before the entrance of sin: not only in terms of diet, but our whole being. Take a look at recent scientific studies on the diseases and health conditions caused by today's standard of 'meat'. It is quite shocking!




In regards to your other questions, I believe I can go through them with you if you wish. I'm not sure about you but the 'we don't know for sure, but we must trust God' template answers are not particularly helpful or encouraging. God gave us His Word so we would have no doubt on any issues or doubts we face about Him and His character. Especially the ark of the covenant one, that one had me puzzled for a long, long time. Take a look at my post in this thread to see a general precursor to much of the issues you face. It helps to understand the broad picture before delving into the specifics.



Hope this helps,




Jon:cool:
 
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PastorJim

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Genesis 29 states seed bearing plants,fruit trees for humans and grasses and green plants for animals. Does that mean we were all supposed to be vegan or vegetarians?

There is nothing wrong with being a vegetarian. The Bible never tells us to be a vegetarian or not be a vegetarian. What the Bible does say is that we should not force our convictions on this issue onto other people or judge them by what they eat or don’t eat. Romans 14:2-3 tells us, "One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him."

God gave humanity permission to eat meat after the Flood (Genesis 9:3). In the Old Testament law, the nation of Israel was commanded to not eat certain foods (Leviticus 11:1-47), but never commanded against eating meat. Jesus declared all foods, including all kinds of meat, to be clean (Mark 7:19). As with anything, each Christian should pray for guidance as to what God would have them eat. Whatever a person decides to eat is acceptable to God as long as we thank Him for providing it (1 Thessalonians 5:18). 1 Corinthians 10:31 declares, "So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God."

Why would God place the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden,knowing we would fall?

God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden to give Adam and Eve a choice – to obey Him or disobey Him. Adam and Eve were free to do anything they wanted, except eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 2:16-17, “And the LORD God commanded the man, ‘You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.’” If God had not given Adam and Eve the choice, they would have essentially been robots, simply doing what they were programmed to do. God created Adam and Eve to be “free” beings, able to make decisions, able to choose between good and evil. In order for Adam and Eve to truly be “free” – they had to have a choice.

There was nothing essentially evil about the tree or the fruit of the tree. It was the act of disobedience that opened Adam and Eve’s eyes to evil. Their sin of disobeying God brought sin and evil into the world and into their lives. Eating the fruit, as an act of disobedience against God, was what gave Adam and Eve knowledge of evil. Genesis 3:6-7, “When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.”

God did not want Adam and Eve to sin. God knew ahead of time what the results of sin would be. God knew that Adam and Eve would sin, and would thereby bring evil, suffering, and death into the world. Why, then, did God put the tree in the Garden of Eden and allow Satan to tempt Adam and Eve? God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden to give Adam and Eve a choice. God allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve to force them to make the choice. Adam and Eve chose, of their own free wills, to disobey God and eat the forbidden fruit.

I was always told that if you loved God and followed him ,that Satan cannot touch you. The story of Job I cannot resolve in my mind,no matter how hard I try. He loved God, and God let Satan hurt him.

The short answer is that Satan can and often does work to attack Christians. While a Christian cannot be oppressed, he can certainly be opressed.

Remember that even Jesus was tempted by the devil (Mar 1:13) and the 1 Peter 5:8 tells us that Satan is like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. Remember, that was written to Christians.

So how do we combat Satan when he or his devils come for us?

Well, to start with, there are two primary errors when it comes to spiritual warfare: over-emphasis and under-emphasis. Some blame every sin, every conflict, and every problem on demons that need to be cast out. Others completely ignore the spiritual realm and the fact that the Bible instructs us that our battle is against spiritual powers. The key to successful spiritual warfare is finding the Biblical balance. Jesus sometimes cast demons out of people, and sometimes healed people with no mention of the demonic. The Apostle Paul instructs Christians to wage war against the sin in themselves (Romans 6), and to wage war against the evil one (Ephesians 6:10-18).

Ephesians 6:10-12 declares, “A final word: Be strong with the Lord’s mighty power. Put on all of God’s armor so that you will be able to stand firm against all strategies and tricks of the Devil. For we are not fighting against people made of flesh and blood, but against the evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against those mighty powers of darkness who rule this world, and against wicked spirits in the heavenly realms." This text teaches us some crucial truths: (1) We can only be strong in the Lord’s power, (2) It is God’s armor that protects us, (3) Our battle is against spiritual forces of evil in the world.

(1) A powerful example of this is Michael the archangel in Jude verse 9. Michael, likely the most powerful of all of God’s angels, did not rebuke Satan in his own power, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” Revelation 12:7-8 records that in the end times, Michael will defeat Satan. Still, when it came to his conflict with Satan, Michael rebuked Satan in God’s name and authority, not his own. It is only through our relationship with Jesus Christ that we, as Christians, have any authority over Satan and his demons. It is only in His Name that our rebuke has any power.

(2) Ephesians 6:13-18 gives us a description of the spiritual armor God gives us. We are to stand firm with (a) the belt of truth, (b) the breastplate of righteousness, (c) the gospel of peace, (d) the shield of faith, (e) the helmet of salvation, (f) the sword of the Spirit, and (g) by praying in the Spirit. What do these pieces of spiritual armor represent for us in our spiritual warfare? We are to speak the truth against Satan’s lies. We are to rest in the fact that we are declared righteous because of Christ’s sacrifice for us. We are to proclaim the Gospel no matter how much resistance we receive. We are not to waver in our faith, no matter how strongly we are attacked. Our ultimate defense is the assurance we have of our salvation, and the fact that spiritual forces cannot take that away. Our offensive weapon is to be the Word of God, not our own opinions and feelings. We are to follow Jesus’ example in recognizing that some spiritual victories are only possible through prayer.

(3) Jesus is our ultimate example for spiritual warfare. Observe how Jesus handled direct attacks from Satan: "Then Jesus was led out into the wilderness by the Holy Spirit to be tempted there by the Devil. For forty days and forty nights he ate nothing and became very hungry. Then the Devil came and said to him, 'If you are the Son of God, change these stones into loaves of bread.' But Jesus told him, 'No! The Scriptures say, "People need more than bread for their life; they must feed on every word of God."' Then the Devil took him to Jerusalem, to the highest point of the Temple, and said, 'If you are the Son of God, jump off! For the Scriptures say, "He orders his angels to protect you. And they will hold you with their hands to keep you from striking your foot on a stone."' Jesus responded, 'The Scriptures also say, "Do not test the Lord your God."' Next the Devil took him to the peak of a very high mountain and showed him the nations of the world and all their glory. 'I will give it all to you,' he said, 'if you will only kneel down and worship me.' 'Get out of here, Satan,' Jesus told him. 'For the Scriptures say, "You must worship the Lord your God; serve only him."' Then the Devil went away, and angels came and cared for Jesus" (Matthew 4:1-11). The best way to combat Satan is the way Jesus showed us, and that was to quote Scripture because the devil cannot handle the sword of the Spirit, the Word of the Living God.

The ultimate example of how not to engage in spiritual warfare is the seven sons of Sceva: "A team of Jews who were traveling from town to town casting out evil spirits tried to use the name of the Lord Jesus. The incantation they used was this: 'I command you by Jesus, whom Paul preaches, to come out!' Seven sons of Sceva, a leading priest, were doing this. But when they tried it on a man possessed by an evil spirit, the spirit replied, 'I know Jesus, and I know Paul. But who are you?' And he leaped on them and attacked them with such violence that they fled from the house, naked and badly injured." (Acts 19:13-16). What was the problem? The seven sons of Sceva were using Jesus’ Name. That is not enough. The seven sons of Sceva did not have a relationship with Jesus; therefore, their words were void of any power or authority. The seven sons of Sceva were relying on a methodology. They were not relying on Jesus, and were not employing the Word of God in their spiritual warfare. As a result, they received a humiliating beating. May we learn from their bad example and conduct spiritual warfare as the Bible describes.

So, to recap: what are the keys to success in spiritual warfare? First, we rely on God’s power, not our own. Second, we rebuke in Jesus’ Name, not our own. Third, we protect ourselves with the full armor of God. Fourth, we wage warfare with the sword of the Spirit – the Word of God. Last, we remember that while we wage spiritual warfare against Satan and his demons, not every sin or problem is a demon that needs to be rebuked. “In all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us” (Romans 8:37).

There are other instances where a guy is picking up sticks on the Sabbath and God kills him,and another man steady's the Ark of the Covenant and God strikes him down. Does that not seem ridiculous?

You know, it's really funny that you should mention this because I was just listening to a sermon by Leonard Ravenhill on this very topic.

You can hear it here:

http://www.ravenhill.org/touchark.htm

The name of the man who was killed for touching the ark was Uzzah and the reason God was so offended by Uzzah's actions is that the Ark of the Covenant was an embodiment of God's presence with the Israelites. The atonement cover (or "mercy seat") that covered the ark was God's throne (2 Sam 6:2) and God's presence was above it (Lev 16:2). It was also the place where God met Moses and gave him commands (Ex 25:22).

If someone approached the ark, they would effectively be in God's presence - a sinner standing before a holy God who does not tolerate evil (Ps 5:4-6) - and would die as a result of their sins. For this reason, God had given the Israelites many rules concerning the Ark of the Covenant. It was to be kept in the Most Holy Place in the temple, hidden from view by a curtain (Ex 26:33).

Only the high priest could enter the Most Holy Place, and then only after he had undergone ceremonial cleansing, made sacrifices to atone for his sins and the nation's sins, and burned incense to conceal the atonement cover (Lev 16). When the ark was moved, it was covered with at least 3 layers of cloth by the priests to protect others from seeing it (Num 4:5-6, 15, 18-20); the priests/Levites carried it and everyone else had to stay about a thousand yards away (Josh 3:4). These laws enforced the concept of God's holiness: sinful people couldn't be in his presence, not even the high priest.

Hence, when Uzzah touched the ark, he was profaning it and disobeying God; he should have grabbed the poles used for carrying the ark instead, for that was their purpose (Ex 25:14-15).
 
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