Design...actual or not and why?

[Oncedeceived]

Once; I know you put this question to non-believers; but I would like to add a few comments:




If the design was an illusion; there would be no power in it; like the magician's stage magic, it would be easy see the illusion; but because there is a designer, God, the scientist work and work to prove there is no design, but they never will.




That's because if they didn't, they would see and know it's God's design; be in awe of Him, and accept Him as their savior; but then they would be kicked out of the science club; and they couldn't do that!




This is a Godly temptation; unlike the other kind, there is no bad consequences; they should go ahead and believe away!

I am always happy when others add what they think is important to my threads. Thanks.

 

[Oncedeceived]

How do you know that tuning was possible?

First of all I might suggest that this thread might not be for you. This is a thread that is for the unbeliever to address his/her position on the issue and considering how you have an aversion to doing so it might not be something you want to involve your time and effort in.

The fine tuning or the necessary parameters measuring to such fine degrees required for life to exist on earth are what they are and if they were not we were not be here to ponder the subject. Is it possible for the parameters being set at other percentages, most astrobiologists/physicists believe that they "could" have been set at various other percentages as there is no evidence of any physical law to prohibit different measurements. Thus, it could be possible for them to be different but they are set the way they are which makes life possible.

If you would like to claim that what you perceive as design is actual design, the bur...

Nevermind. I see that you are still going in circles.

Like I said, it might not be for you if you are not wanting to give your reasoning for your position, if you have one.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Many do see it; they have yet to demonstrate actual design.

The argument from design works against an "all-powerful, all-knowing" god; why would such a god need to "fine tune" or carefully "design" anything? A god like that could have orange growing on the surface of the Sun. Why would an "all-powerful, all-knowing" god make the world, and life, only exist within such tiny parameters?

The reason the All powerful, All knowing God made sure that His design was apparent:
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
He wanted us to know He designed it.

How would actual design tell us it was your particular god?

The Bible is claimed to be inspired by God who therein claims He designed it and that He would leave evidence of His design (it appears designed) for those He created to know He exists.

It would be at the cost of my intellectual integrity.

I find this statement rather ironic. In a purely evolutionary universe, there is no physical reason or evolutionary explanation that there be intelligent beings capable of understanding the universe. We are not merely observers to nature's stage but we comprehend and understand the workings of the universe to a great degree. There is no reason that we as observers need to do anything but observe but we do, we understand more than what we could ever understand if we have only existed to survive.

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

 

[DogmaHunter]

He wanted us to know He designed it.

Then why did he obviously go out of his way to make everything look as if it naturally developed/evolved?

The Bible is claimed to be inspired by God

The quran is claimed to be dictated by god.

who therein claims He designed it

As allah does in the quran.

and that He would leave evidence of His design (it appears designed)

Appearance of design is not evidence of design.
And in this case of "appearance of design", we even have a collection of solid scientific theories which explain quite elegantly exactly why this appearance of design exist. And why it is merely appearance and not actual.

If that is the "evidence" that he left, then -again- he seems to be hellbend on deceiving rational minds.

I find this statement rather ironic. In a purely evolutionary universe, there is no physical reason or evolutionary explanation that there be intelligent beings capable of understanding the universe.

/facepalm

Evolution theory explains exactly that.
It explains how it is possible that such beings exist.

So, really, an evolutionary worldview is the opposite of what you claim it is.

There is no reason that we as observers need to do anything but observe but we do, we understand more than what we could ever understand if we have only existed to survive.

There is no evolutionary restriction or whatever to how much knowledge you can gather.

Human society thrives on innovation. It's what we do.
Innovation requires understanding to build technology.

If we become better at that, then the entire tribe benefits. Survival and reproduction rates of the entire tribe go up.

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

"There can be only one" - Duncan McLeod

 

[Oncedeceived]

There are things that have the appearance of design. I can agree to that.
However, imo, these things aren't as abbundant as you tend to claim/imply.

I don't know what you would consider abundant. There are at least 26 of the constants of the universe that must be almost exactly as they are for life to exist on earth. Add to that the 100's of just right elements including distance from the sun, location in the galaxy, liquid water and so many other factors that are requirements for life on earth just to exist in the universe. WE then move to the requirements for life to even begin on earth which we still don't even understand let alone explain. The millions and millions of complex workings in cells and the mechanics of a life form can hardly be anything but abundant.
Here is just the workings of a single cell.

Richard Dawkins: "Natural selection is the blind watchmaker, blind because it does not see ahead, does not plan consequences, has no purpose in view. Yet the living results of natural selectioin overwhelmingly impress us with the appearance of design as if by a master watchmaker, impress us with the illusion of design and planning. The purpose of this book is to resolve the paradox to the satisfaction of the reader, and the purpose of this chapter is further to impress the reader with the power of the illusion of design." Cover

Nobel laureate Francis Crick writes, "Biologists must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed, but rather evolved."

Paul Davies: The temptation to believe that the Universe is the product of some sort of design, a manifestation of subtle aesthetic and mathematical judgment, is overwhelming.
Click to expand...
I highlighted the key words for you.

The question: So my question to non-believers is what do you attribute that design to and why? What evidence do you feel explains this obvious appearance of design?

To the same phenomena the quotes you posted attribute it to: evolution by natural selection.

Natural selection for the fine tuning of the universe? As far as in life, evolution then evolution is not specific enough, please be specific.

All the evidence that supports evolution theory.

What evidence do you feel explains the appearance of design in life forms?

It's literally what evolution explains... why living things have the appearance of design.

Explain?

 

[Belk]

"To a man with a hammer all problems look like nails."

 

[Oncedeceived]

Then why did he obviously go out of his way to make everything look as if it naturally developed/evolved?

I would like to know what theory or evidence for evolution there is for the universe.

As far as looking naturally evolved, you are looking back in time and explaining what you see. Evolution may be claimed to explain "everything " without a Creator, but that is a claim that is not substantiated, when there are things we simply don't know we can't assume anything about it. It is an assertion that has not been shown by any evidence. To claim that no Creator was needed is to claim you know more than what the evidence is telling you.

The quran is claimed to be dictated by god. As allah does in the quran.

There are many claims, that is why we seek truth. That we know there is truth is to admit the false exists.

Appearance of design is not evidence of design.
And in this case of "appearance of design", we even have a collection of solid scientific theories which explain quite elegantly exactly why this appearance of design exist. And why it is merely appearance and not actual.

Assertion. What specifically are you citing? How do these theories show design is merely appearance and not actual?

If that is the "evidence" that he left, then -again- he seems to be hellbend on deceiving rational minds.

Explain in evolutionary terms how we have rational minds?

/facepalm

Evolution theory explains exactly that.
It explains how it is possible that such beings exist.

Then explain exactly that, explain exactly how we exist as rational, intelligent beings that can comprehend the workings of the universe. How did consciousness arise exactly through evolutionary means.

So, really, an evolutionary worldview is the opposite of what you claim it is.

What did I claim it was?

There is no evolutionary restriction or whatever to how much knowledge you can gather.

If we are a product of evolutionary processes are thought processes are determined by what was advantageous for our survival. How do we comprehend the universe's workings, how from our evolutionary past would this capability arise? How in an evolutionary physical world did thoughts arise?

Human society thrives on innovation. It's what we do.
Innovation requires understanding to build technology.

Why?

If we become better at that, then the entire tribe benefits. Survival and reproduction rates of the entire tribe go up.

What survival advantage would lead to comprehending the universe?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Quite simply, it's a result of the natural forces acting in our world/universe.

Yes, very simple and totally too simple.

The other week, my great grandson and I were fishing by the edge of the estuary near my home. As we stood, the tide receded, exposing a ripple pattern in the damp sand. It looked almost as if a giant with an enormous rake had shaped that pattern, in much the same manner as sand is shaped in traditional Japanese gardens.

A visitor from outer space might have reached a similar conclusion - that it had been 'designed' by an intelligent hand.

But it wasn't. We understand the simple physics involved in that ripple pattern. As we do all of the appearances of design in nature.

You are lumping everything together and asserting nature did it. To see a pattern in the sand and equating it to the inner workings of the cell for instance is a category error.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Do you know why nobody in physics is speaking up about pink graviton faeries? Because nobody is seriously posing it as a problem to accepting the established facts. In biology, they are. The problem is that when people see design in biology, it actually drives them away from the actual explanation, the one that can be supported by evidence. This is a problem that must be addressed by biologists. In an ideal world, it wouldn't be an issue, but this is not an ideal world.



It's not about making up our own, it's about checking to see if the bible is true. The problem is, it isn't. What the bible says does not mesh with what we see in reality. So we can either hold to the book, rejecting reality, or we can accept the bible for what it is: a flawed text written by flawed humans who did not have access to the knowledge we have today.

I am addressing your position of biology and how you feel the appearance of design is explained. What evidence provides confirmation for your position that the design we see in the universe and life forms is only an illusion?

 

[Oncedeceived]

"To a man with a hammer all problems look like nails."

Ok?

 

[Oncedeceived]

It appears designed but that's just how our intuition works.

Explain?

 

[SkyWriting]

The appearance of Design is a very important part of the universe and life on earth. It seems that most everyone believes that there is an appearance of design. Richard Dawkins: "Natural selection is the blind watchmaker, blind because it does not see ahead, does not plan consequences, has no purpose in view. Yet the living results of natural selectioin overwhelmingly impress us with the appearance of design as if by a master watchmaker, impress us with the illusion of design and planning.

A watchmaker must be pretty motivated to build a watch. It takes time and patience.
What is motivating natural selection? What is motivating nature to do anything?
When I pull a weed in the garden, it quickly fades to nothing.
What is fighting my efforts?

 

[Oncedeceived]

A watchmaker must be pretty motivated to build a watch. It takes time and patience.
What is motivating natural selection? What is motivating nature to do anything?
When I pull a weed in the garden, it quickly fades to nothing.
What is fighting my efforts?

Right, why did a blind watchmaker make creations that can see?

 

[Loudmouth]

Real duck, or only looks like a duck?

 

[Loudmouth]

Right, why did a blind watchmaker make creations that can see?

Because sight was an advantageous adaptation.

 

[Loudmouth]

A watchmaker must be pretty motivated to build a watch. It takes time and patience.
What is motivating natural selection? What is motivating nature to do anything?
When I pull a weed in the garden, it quickly fades to nothing.
What is fighting my efforts?

When you have imperfect replicators competing for limited resources, how could natural selection not happen? How would less fit individuals outcompete and outreproduce fitter individuals?

 

[Loudmouth]

The appearance of Design is a very important part of the universe and life on earth. It seems that most everyone believes that there is an appearance of design.

Most everyone thinks that the cloud in the picture above this post has the appearance of a duck. Does that mean it really is a duck?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Because sight was an advantageous adaptation.

Indeed. Please provide what evidence provides confirmation that the eye evolved by only natural processes.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Most everyone thinks that the cloud in the picture above this post has the appearance of a duck. Does that mean it really is a duck?

Category error. You put up a simple pattern recognition sample against complex and mechanical workings of the universe and biological life forms. It is hand waving. Address the actual issue.

 

[Loudmouth]

Indeed. Please provide what evidence provides confirmation that the eye evolved by only natural processes.

Cosmic teapots, dear. If you want to claim that there is a designer, present the positive evidence.

The evidence we do have is consistent with evolution. I have yet to see any evidence pointing to a supernatural designer.