Desertion in the Desert: Examining Whether the Desert Fathers Were Seperatists..

Gxg (G²) · May 8, 2012

Thekla said:
Death to the World - The Last True Rebellion

The parallel is apt - most 'punks' I knew (and the movement in general) were a reaction against values held by the status quo. (I think the DiY movement was more interesting, as it was not a "reaction against" something, but had a similar ethos).

Thanks for making me aware of the "Death to the World" link you gave out, as it does seem very intriguing in the information it presented and the ways they were able to connect the monks with others essentially did social protest/activism via their lifestyle...just as others use music and other forms of resistance in order to impact others Very relevant for our times...

Thekla · May 9, 2012

Easy G (G²);60492727 said:
One wonders how to go about doing that many times...and it's hard not to wonder if there are many times the Lord may be present somewhere and others missed it due to looking for the wrong things--or judging based on how he did it in one setting and forgetting that the Lord does not always go in line with forumla or expectations (as was the case in the days of Christ when others failed to realize where He was in Luke 19:43-45 ...or Jacob, when the Lord appeared to him and he realized he didn't even realize it in Genesis 28:14 )

I think that can be an issue - and here it seems the remembrance of "spirit vs. letter" is important.
There is an expectation that "form and content" will match, but often that is not the case (we do live in the ear of advertising )

Wow...

That's a pretty intense website. Had no idea, although what they noted there was pretty spot on. Was there anything from it that you enjoyed?Kind of seems similar to Hip Hop culture, specifically underground Hip Hop..in that not everything is accepted simply because the majority do so.Do you feel that the "something is wrong" theme has ever reached a point where it became wrong in/of itself due to the spirits others walked in or others choosing to paint a scenario as "wrong" when there was actually alot of "right" present within it?

I've read it on and off over the years (we have a few of the zines around here somewhere ...) and have enjoyed it. And I respect that their ministry is/was targeted to people who have recognized the problem, but are still searching for answers.

Underground Hip-Hop (at least what I have heard) seems along the same lines. There is a certain freedom among such movements (such as eschewing the 3 minute song, a greater variety of instruments and sampling sources, breaking or bending the verse-chorus-verse-chorus structure) which makes for a richness in the music.

And I do think that the response can most certainly become the wrong (as in many political movements, once in power), and that also there is a temptation to wipe the slate clean rather than retain what is valuable.

The DiY movement was interesting, indeed....although you wonder how you can seek to go against something if there does not seem to be any reason to.
Good quote to live by, as the priest noted I just wonder at what point a Hospital can become a hospice or a prison emergency ward if there"s too much restriction/no room for what may be necessary disagreement (as the monastics had when it came to loving the Church and yet not feeling as if they were bound to walk lock-step in line with every facet of it that the majority went with when it seemed to go against the heart of Christ).

It can seem that way, but here again the "Arts" are instructive. I don't know if you know of the Hollywood "Hays Code" (30s - 60s) ... it was decried as a rather severe form of (moral) censorship. Yet most Film Noir was produced under the code, and seems to actually benefit from the restriction - forcing the piece into a sort of subtlety and tension that film since the Hayes Code has not evidenced as consistently.

Experimental Literature, such as the OuLiPo, created strict (but playful) "rules for itself, and visual artists are typically working in sort of a "problem solving" as a goal or parameter (agreement or selected disagreement among medium, form, and content for a sort of balance). In fact poetry, which is the most formally constrained writing also produces the greater "height" of meaning for the number of words.

In this sense, constraint or form can actually allow an intensity of focus and action that allows one to center and "fly".

For more explanation (in the event I'm not making sense), part of me cannot help but wonder of what often may happen when someone for one form of ministry may end up exalting that form as if it is the only way to minister.

I think that is a very real danger. Perhaps though that is an indication that one is not actually responding to, interacting with person or situation, but using form as end, not means.

For those loving the monasteries, there may be others who have love that goes into the realm of extreme zeal...to the point where anyone who may not be up for visiting monasteries or seeing them as the only way of spiritual development are condemned....

Yes, this can be a problem (and seems to indicate an imbalance, or application of one's own remedy to another).

amd if others develop differing ways of ministry that may incorporate certain aspects of monasteries while differing from them in others (i.e. a Boiler Room/Prayer room or Prayer houses that they may have in places dedicated to intercession for the community..or Monastic communites where the arts /incarnational ministry are utilized, as with others such as the New Monastics like Shane Claiborne), people can be quick to say that healing/the workings of the Holy Spirit may not be present due to how it's different than the expression they were used to.

The Boiler Room idea is interesting - and use a word that is important to what I was indicating above: relational. Ie if form delimits our ability to respond to the person or event, some inspection is in order (as the limit may be us, or the misapplication of a form).

Ultimately, I do think that even in circumstances inimical to the goal, the goal can still be attained - as in the survival of Christianity under Communism. This is not to say that it is easy, but that where the heart is converted, or allowed to convert by the person, it can be done. To me, this is the power of God, what we must agree to.

IMHO, there are times where it seems that significant challenge arises whenever there's a desire to get back to an "original" form of Christian spirituality since what happened previously already had present within differing camps, each feeling they were the "originals" others needed to follow even as they sought to be "original" in regards to what the early church held to.....with the examples of the Desert Fathers being a prime example in their resisting Imperial Christianity at many points even when others in the Church felt their actions were not appropriate or a reflection of what the Church was to be about.

I think this can indeed be a genuine seeking for renewal and restoration; it can in some instances arise from the fact that humans can evaluate better retrospectively than prospectively. Because of this, we tend to see the value and embrace it retrospectively, when at the start it can be a muddy and confusing thing.

St. Symeon the New Theologian is interesting - he was actually interested in return/restoration to what had been somewhat lost in the faith.

Adding to those factors are the reality that many "original" expressions were colored by cultural expression - i.e., pre-modernism, primitive scientific understanding, flat-earth cosmology, etc. For others, it seems that the challenge was to forge an authentic spirituality that can speak to, as well as receive from, the larger culture. ....for IMHO, it's the Church's role to act out the creational microcosm - that is, the Church's very existence is a sign and a foretaste of the New Creation, in which God is making all things new.

I'm one of those who thinks everything is colored by cultural expression
(And I truly value Orthodoxy's ability to absorb and lift the 'local' cultural expression to the service of Christ.)

The Church is a sort of microcosm and foretaste, I agree. The process of selection from a culture (called by one bishop a people's "store of value") can take time. For example iirc, John of Damascus selected from the 12 Pythagorean tones 8 that were deemed suitable for worship (the origin of ochtoechos).

It's getting harder for this to happen - to find authentic cultural forms, that arise and contain value, as it seems presently we are undergoing a sort of de-culturization vis a vis globalization. Cultural expressions become "cute", or commodities. IMO, this is the 'Madison Avenue effect', which tends to empty things of content leaving just form.

It is because of those issues that part of me often feels that one cannot make cultural norms based in the Church an idol when it comes to seeing how something was expressed in one era...and not being willing to change it at any point in order to help others see things more clearly if something arises. For just as others in the Byzantine era contexualized the Faith as they understood it in their times so as to be better able to make disciples/convey truth ....in the same manner Jewish believers from a Hellenized background used Greek concepts/imagery to convey Biblical principles to others in the Greek world so that they'd understand).... so it is the case, IMHO, that there should never be such a focus on the past that there's never ability to understand (or be able) to know when change may be necessary.

That's another tricky one it seems to me. Certainly form can become an idol (especially when we're 'good at it'. Artists wrestle with this, as practiced forms can lose their vitality.)

Part of the store of Tradition found in retaining older "forms" is the store of 'disposition' and 'mindset'. These are intangibles that belong typically to the realm of the Arts - music, poetry, movement, visual art. This can be seen in the use of various cultural 'conceits' to express the sam intangible in Orthodoxy's spread.

The US is a hard one, as we are multicultural, and our "culture" is actually the variety of "cultures". Our native music/s are arguably Aboriginal and Jazz (as our classical and much of our hymn base here are Euro-derivative). Blues possibly would qualify, though I have read it is the survival of African forms (much like Appalachian is a modified survival of British folk). (Interestingly, of the older musical forms, I only know of two - Jazz and the Papadic Hymn - that are 'open forms', allowing within their form an extended period of various degrees of improvisation for an unknown duration of time before the conclusion. There may be more, though.)

Thekla · May 9, 2012

Part 2 ...

Granted, the mindset of "cultural adaptability" can indeed be taken overrboard....to the point of where we get so caught up in trying to make "translate" the Gospel to the point that the message gets lost at some point and it becomes of no relevance anymore because it's gotten to the point where we can basically re-shape Jesus into our image apart from how he was ORIGINALLY seen. As another believer said best:

That said, there does seem to be a lot of Biblical precedent for knowing how to express concepts in differing ways than what may've existed before if the need arose for it.

Right; this is the danger of secularization, and it is a real one (as it saps content).

Certainly, in reading the ECFs, one can find this sort of updating, where the manner of description responds to the time but preserves the core. And this is truly needed in every generation and era.

The core is indeed what must be kept (and the core can be lost also by not responding using 'descriptors' appropriate to the shifts in language, etc.)

Biblically, many of the things Paul did were a bit new for their time (even though they've become standard for us today). Paul capitalized on the "unknown God" and used it as a springboard to tell them about the one true God in Acts 17...but in another sense, he quoted a mystical love poem written to Zeus, as if it's subject were the one true God. It's really not far from "grooving to the latest tune to Zeus saying it should be sung to Yahweh"..........saying, essentially, "this is what you've been worshiping, ignorantly, and this is the fuller meaning of what you've been doing"....

Sort of like finding traces of God in the culture, "whatever is good, whatever is just ...". St. Nektarios writes of such things being present in every (ancient) culture; he refers to these things as the store or memory of the promise given in the Garden (the potoevangelion, the first record of the promise of the coming of Christ). And he remarks that no matter how distorted or piecemeal, the memory of the promise is kept through every generation.

And this is not unlike also glimpsing how any culture was perhaps prepared for the coming of Christ (as in the development of the terms logos and tao, which occurred at about the same time in history).

Now that Christ has come, I wonder what we might be looking for in each modern culture ? Certainly homilies can still employ the sort of method Paul used.

On this matter, I can't help but always think of the dissertation published in the early 1900s by Wilhelm Worringer, "Abstraction and Empathy". Here he argues that there are two kinds of art found throughout history - the representative and the abstract. He points out that representative art occurs in mileaus where there is satisfaction with what is, whereas abstraction evidences a mileau of striving (for a value that is "above"). Iconography, though representational, is classified by Worringer as abstract. I agree (and in this it is both in a sense).

(Related somewhat, is Byzantine - Greek and Arabic - as well as Coptic Chant. In my neighborhood, people play their music loudly at times, and there are sometimes more than one person playing music in my own home. The above chants/music are the only ones that sound in concord with and also are not subsumed by every other sort of music - 'classical', rap, rock, jazz, hip-hop, latino, experimental, and environmental noise. Amazing !)

I think it's one of the finest examples of cross-cultural ministry recorded in scripture, and was certainly an inspiration over the ages for the "Christianization" of pagan holidays and customs: from the hairdos of the monks to the dates of feasts to the symbols and words used to the liturgy itself (patterned after the coronation ceremony of an emperor) to the songs and hymns sung. IMHO, it's tragic when the church has taken the contextualization of one generation or one culture and declared that as normative for all time - or used it to condemn a new framing, a new contextualization. Personally...this is something that I must say has been my biggest concern with the "high" churches, especially Orthodoxy. I don't understand why the culture, art, hymnology, and symbols of 4th-century Byzantium are held in such high regard as to be considered in essence the peak of perfection, the summit of revelation...but anything differing from that, be it Assyrian or Oriential Orthodox and so forth, is treated with disdain or contempt.

There is a dual issue here, to the extent that the store of disposition and mindset are concerned; we come into something (eventually familiar) and though we do not carry the form out with us (when at the end of the Liturgy we are sent out), but we do carry its effect on us - the intangibles of mindset and disposition. The form we carry out informs the forms in the greater world (God willing). (And over time, these cultural forms, transformed by the intangibles, can be carried back in ...)

There is of course the Orthodox default "what's change ?" or "if it aint broke ...". But there is also the value in the form. Music is one example. A friend once said to me, "Music is all about where it hits the body." And indeed, the drone in Byzantine chant settles and centers the body, while the melodic line lifts it, but in moderation, allowing the heart to quiet and soar. (This can be true with similar sorts of music, btw.)

The same could of course be said for Modern Western Protestant Evangelicalism: what makes 16th-century Geneva the stopping-point for theological understanding?

At least in my view, it is not the core but the description that must often change to suit a new audience. The change in the core of it is not the core, but the quiet deepening in us.

The example of the Fathers seems to stand out since they were very much Eastern in their thinking...and yet they were necessarily for the sake of continining with the status quo. In many ways, they were revolutionary in their actions---creating a NEW kind of community that was not present before...even though they did so in order to preserve what they felt was consistent with the testimony of the Apostles/early church of the past....and that naturally caused alot to question their actions since others disagreeing with them seemed to think they may have not been in line with the Church fully or holding a view consistent with the apostles. Two sides (the Fathers and those in the Empire with Imperial Christianity ) both felt that they had access to what the Church was supposed to be about......yet they disagreed.

There does seem to have been some precedent perhaps, in the Essenes and the Theraputae (Jewish 'monastic type' communities). And I think the answer (at least for myself) is found not in the tension, but in the balance or overlap. In this, Orthodoxy seems to have naturally developed a system of checks and balances, a sort of moderation between the Church (if understood as hierarchy), the monastics, and the laity. As if no one of the three has "the answer", but it is in the interchange and balance between them.

Still wrestling with how that all works out..

But from where I'm at now, I do think one can appreciate the past while learning from the present/moving in harmony. I'm reminded of St. Melito of Sardis, for he had a great love of history and liturgy, attached to the traditions of the ancients, yet he recognized that the old world great as it was was passing away in many respects and had wisdom in knowing how to change with it within reason. St. Symeon the New Theologian is another, as it concerns the ways he was a bit radical in some of his views on the Holy Spirit compared to others. ...even though he was one who was mentored by one of the most famous Holy Fools (Symeon the Pious ) and whose authority for many of his teachings derived from the traditions of the Desert Fathers/ early Christian monks and ascetics.

I've just read Melito of Sardis recently - and he is indeed wonderful. Symeon I mentioned above; although I don't think I'm ready to read him, from what I do know his "project" was restoration, and I think this might include also a re-balancing to bring again to prominence the balance.

(My dad used to describe the Pentecostal movement as a balancing - a response to the mainstream denomination's 'neglect' of the Holy Spirit.)

Within modern times, there are others that seemed to have echoed the same, such as Kalistos Ware in the ways he goes about ecumenical work with Orthodoxy/Evangelical relations (more here ) or others like Bradley Nassif here /here) who has done similar when it comes to noting at certain points where he, as an Orthodox leader, may feel like many in Orthodoxy have been shifting in certain views so as to be in better positions for spreading the Gospel....even though he's of the mindset that others should learn from Orthodoxy.

In Pa., the Orthodox in one area have been in joint activities/sessions with the local Mennonite community; is this the sort of thing you mean ? It seems to me (this instance) to be a sort of natural step, as the spiritualities of both seem similar. (And one I applaud, as I used to attend a Mennonite Church for a bit )

For a current example (abeit one outside of Orthodoxy), if you've ever heard of a man known as Louiee Giglio, he had some excellent thoughts to share on the matter which have always stood out to me.

In many ways, the Gospel is a story of how to move forward, and why, and everyone has an idea of how and why to move forward. And as believers, we have an idea, a story, for how and why to move forwardand that gospel, that story is Jesus. In his sermon, Louie discussesd what was occurring with modernization within Hong Kong. Giglio described a recent trip to Hong Kong where he discovered that trees are so scarce that they actually go to great lengths to build skyscrapers around the few trees that do already exist. They didnt scrap building plans because of the trees that were already established, they didnt raze the trees but instead they designed and integrated the trees into their building plans. He called this process, excavation and renovation and illustrated it with the great story of his own partnership with songwriter Chris Tomlin and the creation of Amazing Grace (My Chains Are Gone). They maintained the integrity of this historic hymn of the Church, but created a simple but powerful new chorus that a new generation of worshippers can claim as their own. Masterful. For more on what Louie taught, one can go online/look up an article under the name of "Trees Of Hong Kong by Louie Giglio"

This sounds neat - I haven't the time to investigate now, but do like the quote (under the audio) in the link. I'll have a listen.

As said by Louie, Hong Kong went through the process of modernizing...and preserved. And they made the past central though they leaned forward for what can be, should beand that is what the church has got to do if we are going to be transcendent.

And I do think something like that can happen, but the trick is determining if the 'skyscrapers' are consistent with the trees - so to speak. Again, the maintaining of instruction in the intangibles, as these are important, too.

A son studied Philosophy, and though I do not know much, it is interesting to hear the sort of striving more recently (Heidegger, for example) towards something, a balance that seems to have disappeared in the west following the era of the enlightenment. The same sort of path is in evidence in Literature and Art as well as Music. So for me, I am waiting perhaps to see if what we have kept in Orthodoxy (as these searchings seem to be for things that were never lost in the east) is what we are to keep, the repository for what is being sought in these movements.

Jesus is the constant, and He is in the midst of us. And that is the gospel. Much of the body has been very ignorant of how much what occurred in the past has truly impacted the Church..and thus, it's paramount for study to occur on such.

Indeed, He is !

Whatever we may do, He is the Head, the heart, the center.

Gxg (G²) · May 11, 2012

Thekla said:
I think that can be an issue - and here it seems the remembrance of "spirit vs. letter" is important.
)

The battle of form vs function or wrappings vs package/substance..

There is an expectation that "form and content" will match, but often that is not the case (we do live in the ear of advertising )

Good points, as we're often presented the same things in a myriad of ways without realizing it many times (As variety is often the only way someone will accept something...for coming at them in ways they'd often expect may lead to them getting used to it/immune---and thus, you alter it everytime it's presented).

I've read it on and off over the years (we have a few of the zines around here somewhere ...) and have enjoyed it. And I respect that their ministry is/was targeted to people who have recognized the problem, but are still searching for answers.

Underground Hip-Hop (at least what I have heard) seems along the same lines. There is a certain freedom among such movements (such as eschewing the 3 minute song, a greater variety of instruments and sampling sources, breaking or bending the verse-chorus-verse-chorus structure) which makes for a richness in the music.

Would add to what you said, on Hip Hop, that the focus in the Underground is much more about social consciousness/addressing real life issues rather than rap or dance/MCeeing for it's own sake. The issue of resistance is present, but within that the focus (just as with Punk culture) is not about simply resisting something that there's no valid/substantive reason to do so...or resisting without offering something as an alternative to heal the problems or choosing to support a resistance that is just as damaging as anything you were fighting against. It's why many in Underground Hip Hop often condemned the ways rappers preach about going againt tyranny and oppression while simultaneously promoting emptiness with the "Get Rich or Die Trying" mindset

I do think that the response can most certainly become the wrong (as in many political movements, once in power), and that also there is a temptation to wipe the slate clean rather than retain what is valuable.

Anyone seeing some of the ways that powerful movements were corrupted, be it the NAACP after the Civil Rights era and leadership from Dr.King ceased (with others using the Christian organization to later support UnChristian things King was never for)---or the Communist revolution where they rebelled against tyranny with good stances and yet those who were corrupt ended up controlling it for their own ends (as was the case with Stalism, confused with communism ), much as the book Animal Farm noted.

It can seem that way, but here again the "Arts" are instructive. I don't know if you know of the Hollywood "Hays Code" (30s - 60s) ... it was decried as a rather severe form of (moral) censorship. Yet most Film Noir was produced under the code, and seems to actually benefit from the restriction - forcing the piece into a sort of subtlety and tension that film since the Hayes Code has not evidenced as consistently.

Experimental Literature, such as the OuLiPo, created strict (but playful) "rules for itself, and visual artists are typically working in sort of a "problem solving" as a goal or parameter (agreement or selected disagreement among medium, form, and content for a sort of balance). In fact poetry, which is the most formally constrained writing also produces the greater "height" of meaning for the number of words.

In this sense, constraint or form can actually allow an intensity of focus and action that allows one to center and "fly".

Constraint can indeed help in creating creativty....as difficulty can often produce the atmosphere necessary for innovation/creativty. It's why others, in example, have often noted that even governments that may do things others feel are a restraint on the market (as others have noted with President Obama in his stances) and yet people may be forced to find new ways to "color inside the lines" or "reshape the lines you color in" (so to speak) so that you work with what you have...and create even greater things that others ever thought possible. George Washington Carver is a living example of this, in light of his faith in the Lord and how he took what seemed to be very little.....and did AMAZING things no one ever thought possible because they were content with what was there.

As one person said, people will often go for a known "cure" to a problem rather than consider differing alternatives that could be discoverd.

Nonetheless, there does seem to be that aspect present where too many limitations can be damaging. Within poetic styles of art, this is something that seems to be very much present when examinigng the many ways that differing art forms were developed and others felt they needed to go beyond what was present.

In example, going through African-American Literature class years ago, I remember reading a novel by W.E.B Debois called "The Souls of Black Folks" ---coming out during the era known as the Reconstruction era of the United States (following the Civil War and pertaining to some of the early stages for the Civil Rights Movement)----and in his book, he addressed the reality of how there are 2 Americans and that Blacks are caught in between living in 2 worlds.....while also living life within their world & knowing that what mattered was doing their own thang. That's one of the reasons why I SO loved Harlem Renaissance (more shown here )--also known as the New Negro Movement (in case you've never heard of it)....as it was the beginning of African American cultural /intellectual life during the 1920s and 1930s...a time when they actively sought to challenge white paternalism/ stereotypes and rejected imitating the styles of Europeans and white Americans, rather instead celebrating black dignity and creativity as they sought to assert their freedom to express themselves on their own terms......and did not go easily with the mindset that they needed white help to be successful or look like whites in order to be "accepted". Other minds on the issue are people like Langston Hughes, Zora Neal Hurston, James Baldwin and many others..

The same dyanmics have been at play, in regards to paternalism and how it naturally leads to the same dynamics one may expect to see whenever there's too much "overshadowing" of newer generations that seem "less" according to how the majority deem something. Be it in seeing the way musical forms have evolved (like Hip Hop/R& B itself going into multiple evolutionary stages just as other generes have...leading to the new stage of Neo-Soul) or seeing differing ways of communicative expression develop like with what occurred during the Renaissance.

The Renaissance era is something that stands out on several levels when it comes to seeing development of artistic thought..and differing constraints broken from previous eras while new ones were shaped in their place as the standards (as the bar was raised high). Seeing the developmental history is very fascinating, in light of Christian Humanism precedding it..some feeling that it may have begun as early as the 2nd century, with the writings of St. Justin Martyr, an early theologian-apologist of the early Christian Church who suggested a value in the achievements of Classical culture in his Apology (here ) --and later, influential letters by Basil of Caesarea and Gregory of Nyssa confirmed the commitment to using pre-Christian knowledge, particularly as it touched the material world. Other periods experienced times of educational emphasis as illustrated by the Carolingian and Ottonian Empires. These early emphases, however, rested squarely on ecclesiastical authority and support. New views and discoveries were often stifled when in conflict with official dogma. The church officially interpreted Scripture and declared its Latin texts infallible. They allowed no alternate interpretations.

And by the time the Renaissance began, people were beginning to see the concept of how all men were made in the image of God..being worthy of respect/dignity and capable of making good decisions. There was greater focus on the asethics and indivdual thought, focusing on the earth rather than Heaven alone. Some Renaissance humanists held church offices and almost all faithfully supported the church, but their support was not an uncritical gullible acceptance since Humanists attacked many abuses but remained devout, orthodox and sincere.

Some see what happened then occurring again...if you've ever heard of the term "New Renaissance." For this term emerged several years ago as God began to reveal His desire to release a fresh outpouring of creativity upon His people that would be a catalyst for transformation in the culture of our world. The historical Renaissance was a surge of creativity and innovation that literally brought European society out of the Dark Ages, and transformed every facet of the culture of the time. Many of the greatest works of art unto the Lord were done, from Michangelo's David to his work "The Creation of Adam", which is a section of Michelangelo's fresco Sistine Chapel...and many others:

It was a time of reformation and a tremendously significant shift in cultural paradigm, and the vehicle for this movement of change was the Arts. In recent years, others have noted how the Lord has been speaking through various leaders and prophetic voices within the body of Christ, as well as leading influencers in secular society (such as Patricia Martin of RenGen--as seen here in her book), that we are on the verge of a second Renaissance. Ultimately, I think God’s desire once again is to pour out His Spirit upon His people through all realms of creative expression that His heart would be revealed to the world and culture would once again be transformed. This is not hard to consider, IMHO. For throughout history we can see that all transformations in culture are preceded by the arts. From the Renaissance to the Impressionists, as artists reached a new dimension in ability and style, civilization responded to the change the arts ushered. In many ways, the Body of Christ is in a time of restoration and the release of God’s creative spirit is being seen throughout the Earth through the prophetic arts.

Ana Méndez, Prophetic Art

The art dynamic always carries with it a certain level of Seperatist thought, seeing how many have often been fearful of the ways that art was utilized in one form during another time and yet people forgot that forms could evolve over time as well..

Even with the Desert Fathers, who seemed to come up with their own variations/definitions of how to express themselves in the pursuit of the Lord (including artistically and how they dressed), there was a level of doing different than before rather than living within the constraints of another era. Focusing on key themes of charity, fortitude, lust, patience, prayer, self-control and visions, the Sayings of the Fathers influenced the rule of St. Benedict and have inspired centuries of opera, poetry and art.....and yet, if they never existed, the expressions people built from would have been the same as before (with no one even considering if things could be different).

http://copticartrevealed.coptic-cairo.com/tour/fathers/fathers.html

I think that is a very real danger. Perhaps though that is an indication that one is not actually responding to, interacting with person or situation, but using form as end, not means.

Definately something to consider...

Yes, this can be a problem (and seems to indicate an imbalance, or application of one's own remedy to another).

Indeed..

The Boiler Room idea is interesting - and use a word that is important to what I was indicating above: relational. Ie if form delimits our ability to respond to the person or event, some inspection is in order (as the limit may be us, or the misapplication of a form).

It always does make a difference for people to choose to look inward before they do outward if/when there's difficulty in connecting...just as people cannot blame cars for not driving right if there's first no inspection of the individual to see if they're either utilizing the vehicle correctly or driving during the best times to do so/avoid problems or if they themselves are prone to be reckless with the gift of transportation.

Ultimately, I do think that even in circumstances inimical to the goal, the goal can still be attained - as in the survival of Christianity under Communism. This is not to say that it is easy, but that where the heart is converted, or allowed to convert by the person, it can be done. To me, this is the power of God, what we must agree to.

Gxg (G²) · May 11, 2012

Originally Posted by Thekla

I think this can indeed be a genuine seeking for renewal and restoration; it can in some instances arise from the fact that humans can evaluate better retrospectively than prospectively.

Because of this, we tend to see the value and embrace it retrospectively, when at the start it can be a muddy and confusing thing.

I do wonder if perhaps being able to see better retrospectively than prospectively can depend on the human rather than humanity in general..as it concerns making a general statement on how things are evaluated. For many times, people made ALOT of good predictions even when much from the past wasn't present to be evaluated---and other times, people had the best information available and still messed up with the future, just as people looked back and still saw poorly in retrospect while others did otherwise.

And sometimes, predictions can be wild. Who would have thought, in example, that those inventing the airplane would have succedded? For many thought the Wright Brothers were crazy for what they did...and the same with others who did things like thinking it was possible to vaccinate others to be immune from diseases or to go to the moon. Yet all of those things, in retrospect for us, seem common...with others thinking "Of course you can fly and go to the moon!!!!!" while others before would have thought otherwise.

Sometimes, all one truly has is a dream...and as one of my friends/sisters in Christ once said, many of the things people celebrate within the realm of invention (especially those things that have changed others) are things we look back and say "I wish I had thought of that!!!!" when the reality is that the thought wasn't what made the difference. For most of the people who became noted for their innovative inventions were simply people who acted on the thought when many others had it and did nothing with it since they didn't think it was worth it. They were willing to take a risk.....and see the reality of chance at play, which does impact us all.

Ecclesiastes 9:11
I have seen something else under the sun: The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned; but time and chance happen to them all.
Ecclesiastes 9:10-12

Even with the Desert Fathers doing as they did (as it concerns restoration/innovation), part of me has wondered if it was possible that they weren't the first to necessarily have the thoughts they did...and they simply happened to act on their thoughts at the right time. If others had chosen not to go into the Desert at all, mabye it would have occurred centuries later (although a different timeline/trajectory would be in place since other unknown factors would be at play if they never left to begin with)---and perhaps we'd be hearing of others who were the "Artic Wilderness" fathers if Empires in colder regions had the same dynamics develop as with the Byzantine empire. Or the "Jungle Fathers" in the event that others decided to flee empires into the Jungles of Africa and other places once Imperial reach extended near those areas.

Reminds me of the scene from Back to the Future 2 when they changed history/had no idea how differnet things could have been if one or two things got out of whack.

St. Symeon the New Theologian is interesting - he was actually interested in return/restoration to what had been somewhat lost in the faith.

For what he did, he will always be one of my favorites...and someone I greatly admire in the faith

I'm one of those who thinks everything is colored by cultural expression
(And I truly value Orthodoxy's ability to absorb and lift the 'local' cultural expression to the service of Christ.)

Cool to know, as I'm right there with ya

The Church is a sort of microcosm and foretaste, I agree. The process of selection from a culture (called by one bishop a people's "store of value") can take time. For example iirc, John of Damascus selected from the 12 Pythagorean tones 8 that were deemed suitable for worship (the origin of ochtoechos).

It's getting harder for this to happen - to find authentic cultural forms, that arise and contain value, as it seems presently we are undergoing a sort of de-culturization vis a vis globalization. Cultural expressions become "cute", or commodities. IMO, this is the 'Madison Avenue effect', which tends to empty things of content leaving just form.

Definately feeling you on what you're saying with John of Damascus and drawing from cultural stores of values...but I think I'd have to respectfully disagree in regards to saying authentic cultural forms are harder to come by due to Globilization. IMHO, if nothing else, the world has become a SMALLER place due to Globilization...with there being alot of things people see in common while others are realize two trajectory tracts: One saying we must all be the same at all points and thus there's a forced agreement that takes place....and the other saying seeing the newer variations of camps means people are more prone to find where their own is and connect with them so as to not lose themselves, leading to a bit of territoralism.

The same concept that happens with cultures seems to also be present in regards to theological cultures coming into greater awareness of those that differ due to how others are able to communicate at greater paces than before. And if I had to best express it, perhaps it'd be good to go with a Sci-Fi example. I have noticed that sci-fi stuff has done a lot of really creative thinking about "otherness" and pluralism.

And on the issue of Sci-Fi, the example I was thinking of was StarTrek.

Within Globilization, be it on a theological level or an anthropological level concerning culture, conformity can often be a huge focus...and there's also the realities of what occurs when Unity is seen in the sense of Conformity/being made to obey and go with "Group-Think"...or the other form of "What the people say is truth is what determines what is real or not"....and as the old saying goes, "Three men make a tiger" (Chinese: 三人成虎 ; Pinyin: sān rén chéng h&#468 . It's as a Chinese proverb or four-character idiom referring to the idea that if an unfounded premise or urban legend is mentioned and repeated by many individuals, the premise will be erroneously accepted as the truth...and this concept is analogous to communal reinforcement or the logical fallacy known as argumentum ad populum or appeal to the people Speaking of truth claims, one example is how most of the religious world once believed that the world was flat----and that was apart of even Christian Thought, with the majority condeming those disagreeing as unbiblical until others found different.

Same happened with others like Gallieo or others who believed that the Sun didn't revolve around the Earth...and many religious people shunned him, including those who were Religious Authorities and saying science/philosophy for God cannot go together--until that was proven otherwise as well. Many times, there's more than enough Biblical warrant for one to say that they disagree (and yet disagree respectfully) without those in a majority assuming that disagreement equates to chaos.

Going back to the Sci-Fi example of StarTrek to show the concept in action (I'm a HUGE STAR-TREK Fan ), one can consider the concept of a "Borg"---as that's the way I've always approached it, with plenty of times it being where the goal was to "assimilate" for the sake of "perfection"., though they did so by FORCE/USING UNITY in a CONTROLLING MANNER and taking unique traits from various cultures that they wanted for their own and combined them together for their own benefit.

However, they did not allow any individuality in the process of benefiting off of the unique traits since it was for the sake of the whole and not the indiviual that they existed---and in many respects, as they destroyed other traits from species they deemed wrong, they actually were not for preserving "Unique" beings since they did not preserve them as they were. There was still an agenda--and the only way to keep it going was to destroy conscience thought and have men be under the sway of the many voices of "The Collective".

Powerful indeed---but a "living death"...

.

The other species to consider is the Founders (Changelings) and what was seen in DS9 with "The Dominion", as they sought to maintain control/subdue that which is "different" than the norm (despite the same happening to them previously when they were persecuted by "Solids" for being different---thus, reacting by believing "What you can control cannot hurt you" and..imposing their version of "order" on others, even those who used to persecute them & fearfully keeping their own race from acknowledging criticisms/siding with the "solids" on the other side or realizing how much they had become that which they hated. Of course, Diversity was allowed in their Empire--but no Diversity that ever challenged the Goals of the Collective, much like living on a block and having a local gang enact a protection racket whereby a powerful entity or individual coerces other less powerful entities or individuals to pay protection money which allegedly serves to purchase protection services against various external threats....giving the illusion of freedom to be indiviual/do as you please but keeping one in line through fear.

The Dominion is, essentially, the anti-Federation. Ruled by the shape-shifting Founders and seen as a collection of alien races, all hell-bent on taking over the known universe...when the Dominion makes its way to the Alpha Quandrant and faces off against the Federation, what results is an interplanetary war that threatens to destroy the entire galaxy..and all of it began because of the desire for FORCED unity...and more specifically, the root behind all of that was FEAR.

Whereas the Borg assimilated others due to mistakenly thinking that they alone in their experiences/views were "perfect" (even though they weren't), the Dominion was built aggressively forced others to agree because their entire culture was centered entirely upon FEAR of what was different...as the Dominion, created by the Founders, is built entirely on xenophobia...with the Founders' main aim being based on bringing their style of order to what they see as the chaotic nature of solids throughout the universe

In trying to find ways in which all kinds of camps can at least co-exist peacefully ( Hebrews 12:13-15, Romans 12:18, James 3:13-18, Matthew 5:9, Luke 6:27-36, etc), it is my hope that we do not become like Borg culturally in choosing to force conformity, supresses individuality, and punish team members who express different points of views...as opposed to truly helping others in promoting a a shared set of values and speaking respectfully even in differences

It is also my hope we don't act like the Dominion in choosing to threaten others to agree with us/desire all to think alike simply because we had bad experiences that caused people to be paranoid toward any divergent opinion.....almost in the same way that others can have xenophobia (or be isolationist) and end up reacting badly toward anything that REMOTELY sounds similar to how another culture they had bad relations with MIGHT have said it.

That's another tricky one it seems to me. Certainly form can become an idol (especially when we're 'good at it'. Artists wrestle with this, as practiced forms can lose their vitality.)

Part of the store of Tradition found in retaining older "forms" is the store of 'disposition' and 'mindset'. These are intangibles that belong typically to the realm of the Arts - music, poetry, movement, visual art. This can be seen in the use of various cultural 'conceits' to express the sam intangible in Orthodoxy's spread.

Excellent points

Gxg (G²) · May 11, 2012

Thekla said:
The US is a hard one, as we are multicultural, and our "culture" is actually the variety of "cultures". Our native music/s are arguably Aboriginal and Jazz (as our classical and much of our hymn base here are Euro-derivative). Blues possibly would qualify, though I have read it is the survival of African forms (much like Appalachian is a modified survival of British folk). (Interestingly, of the older musical forms, I only know of two - Jazz and the Papadic Hymn - that are 'open forms', allowing within their form an extended period of various degrees of improvisation for an unknown duration of time before the conclusion. There may be more, though

Multicultural is truly an understatment in describing our nation's history...although I'd say that Jazz and Blues seem to be more connected with African forms (as well as Jewish) on a host of levels. If interested, thought you would be blessed by this, as the leader of my fellowship alerted me to it awhile back...and I was floored at how much alot of musical styles within black culture have been interconnected with Jewish influences for ages. Gotta be a history buff with music to appreciate it....but as you already are in many ways, I thought it'd fit you perfectly

San Francisco Sentinel » Blog Archives » THE BLACK SABBATH

Also, if interested, there was a brilliant speech/lecture I was able to find out from one of the Orthodox/Eastern Christian Ministries I've followed over the years that discussed the history of rap and jazz.....showing the ways it evolved. To see, go to Ancient Christian Defense: A theology of rap/look up a lecture entitled "Rapping the Gospel" by William Edgar . Apart from that, indeed, there are others..far too many others to cover fully in this discussion if one were to do it justice

Right; this is the danger of secularization, and it is a real one (as it saps content). Certainly, in reading the ECFs, one can find this sort of updating, where the manner of description responds to the time but preserves the core. And this is truly needed in every generation and era.
The core is indeed what must be kept (and the core can be lost also by not responding using 'descriptors' appropriate to the shifts in language, etc.)

[/quote]Feeling that. Only by the SPirit can the core of anything truly be reflected in a generation where one wonders if the message will remain the same as they try to reframe it.

Sort of like finding traces of God in the culture, "whatever is good, whatever is just ...".

Indeed. More of that was shared elsewhere (if you recall the thread More than Dreams:... and the discussion on prayers to the saints conneting with others coming from cultures where the concept of honoring the departed is present due to their understanding of ancestory worship)--with the discussions centered around how to do ministry amongst other cultures, be it Muslims or those in Taoist lands and many other variations---honoring what they have present and knowing that not all things within it have to be thrown out in order for the full truth of Christ to consume.

St. Nektarios writes of such things being present in every (ancient) culture; he refers to these things as the store or memory of the promise given in the Garden (the potoevangelion, the first record of the promise of the coming of Christ). And he remarks that no matter how distorted or piecemeal, the memory of the promise is kept through every generation

Good Word. St.Francis Xavier noted some of the same dynamics when it came to witnessing truth in the culture and finding out where the bridges are for people to realize where the Lord was already present somewhere.....

And this is not unlike also glimpsing how any culture was perhaps prepared for the coming of Christ (as in the development of the terms logos and tao, which occurred at about the same time in history).

The Lord has always had his hand guiding truth in cultures....

Acts 17:28
From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

People were not born in the eras they were, with the unique cultural understandings/expressions they had by accident....

Now that Christ has come, I wonder what we might be looking for in each modern culture ? Certainly homilies can still employ the sort of method Paul used.

I think that it'd be more so about showing Christ as the completion of all things and how the Gospel can be contexualized wherever it is ...like learning how to place plants in the soil of whatever context you're in/allowing it to grow up naturally instead of taking potted plants and trying to place them somewhere while wondering why nothing is growing.

On this matter, I can't help but always think of the dissertation published in the early 1900s by Wilhelm Worringer, "Abstraction and Empathy". Here he argues that there are two kinds of art found throughout history - the representative and the abstract. He points out that representative art occurs in mileaus where there is satisfaction with what is, whereas abstraction evidences a mileau of striving (for a value that is "above"). Iconography, though representational, is classified by Worringer as abstract. I agree (and in this it is both in a sense).

As much as I enjoy art and abstract thought, this is a pretty heavy thought that I'll have to really meditate on to understand fully. I think I get what the man is saying, but the wheels in my head were really spinning alot to comprehend it

(Related somewhat, is Byzantine - Greek and Arabic - as well as Coptic Chant. In my neighborhood, people play their music loudly at times, and there are sometimes more than one person playing music in my own home. The above chants/music are the only ones that sound in concord with and also are not subsumed by every other sort of music - 'classical', rap, rock, jazz, hip-hop, latino, experimental, and environmental noise. Amazing !)

Never considered that before, but will have to chew on that one as it's really neat

There is a dual issue here, to the extent that the store of disposition and mindset are concerned; we come into something (eventually familiar) and though we do not carry the form out with us (when at the end of the Liturgy we are sent out), but we do carry its effect on us - the intangibles of mindset and disposition. The form we carry out informs the forms in the greater world (God willing). (And over time, these cultural forms, transformed by the intangibles, can be carried back in ...) There is of course the Orthodox default "what's change ?" or "if it aint broke ...". But there is also the value in the form. Music is one example. A friend once said to me, "Music is all about where it hits the body." And indeed, the drone in Byzantine chant settles and centers the body, while the melodic line lifts it, but in moderation, allowing the heart to quiet and soar. (This can be true with similar sorts of music, btw.)

If I'm understanding you, is this basically the concept of how differing forms were meant for differing parts of thought? As it concerns how some Byzantine chants affect one part of the human pysche/body while other types of chants impact another part? Moreover, you're saying that the forms are not necessarily static even though they're geared to have a specific effect that generally doesn't change...the essentials always being present? With what you noted on the Byzantine chant, it does seem similar to the ways that smooth jazz/salsa...or classical in the ways it affects the body in certain ways since every musical style has a certain flavor to it that impacts in certain ways. Arabic has a certain musical notation style to it that's radically different from how Chinese Musical beats/tones go....and it brings out differing feels to it. That all goes back to the power of music, from the upbeat/aggressive to the calming/soothing styles:

SLOW HOT WIND

I was blessed recently to come across a fascinating article on the ways Byzantine Muscical styles influenced/impacted other camps---as seen here in Influences of Byzantium and Syria on Western Medieval Chant ... And another focused on Coptic Chants influenced by Hebrew styles. However, I've always wished to see things from the scientific side of how the musical style of the Byzantine chants impacts. There was only one resource I'm aware of that seemed to really speak on the issue, as seen in Optical recognition of psaltic Byzantine chant notation. If you happen to know of any scientific studies on the ways that Byzantine chants (or other types of Chants) impact the human body, I'd love to see sometime

At least in my view, it is not the core but the description that must often change to suit a new audience. The change in the core of it is not the core, but the quiet deepening in us.

Understood....

There does seem to have been some precedent perhaps, in the Essenes and the Theraputae (Jewish 'monastic type' communities). And I think the answer (at least for myself) is found not in the tension, but in the balance or overlap.

The Essenes were truly a wonderful case study to consider when it comes to monastic type communities, having some of the same battles the Fathers had since they were one of the main camps in Judaism who disagreed sharply with the corruption in Jerusalem/other parts of Judaism....choosing to leave....and interestingly enough, many have noted how the Essenes had more of their camp values/practices reflected in the Early Church than any other group for a myriad of reasons. Many have supposed that the Essenes in the Desert were connected to John the Baptist (himself a desert hermit, Matthew 3:1-3 /Matthew 3:3-5 , Mark 1:1and Luke 1:80 ), due to how they dressed in similar fashion as He did and even concepts such as the use of "The Way" came from them...and they happened to utilize Baptism via water with immersion unlike other groups.

The monastic group I study with has often noted how the Desert Fathers and Essenes seemed linked..especially in light of how they honored how multiple aspects of Liturgy/traditions in the Church were Jewish

For some excellent study resources on the subject:

Also, perhaps one of the best books out there are the issue that has been a TREMENDOUS aid to me is known as "The Meaning of the Dead Sea Scrolls"

That book was one of the best reads I've ever been able to come across on the issue...and it greatly helped me to see how the Dead Sea Scrolls verify so much of what it is that we see in our times (including Eastern Monasticism practices), especially as it concerns the work of Jesus, John the Baptist and what the church looked like.

In this, Orthodoxy seems to have naturally developed a system of checks and balances, a sort of moderation between the Church (if understood as hierarchy), the monastics, and the laity. As if no one of the three has "the answer", but it is in the interchange and balance between them

Essentially, a large community meeting...which makes sense, although I still wonder what to make of it when other groups seemed to be given more of a shout-out in terms of others saying "They were MORE correct than others", be it when saying the laity of a camp are more informed than the Bishops or that the monastics have more insight than the laity...for there's the reality that there's truth in all of the branches---but depending on the season, it does seem that whoever is able to "get the Mic"/represent as the most promiment facet can vary.

Gxg (G²) · May 11, 2012

.

Originally Posted by Thekla

I've just read Melito of Sardis recently - and he is indeed wonderful. Symeon I mentioned above; although I don't think I'm ready to read him, from what I do know his "project" was restoration, and I think this might include also a re-balancing to bring again to prominence the balance.

Like the Matrix, where he came to bring balance and it seemed things were so "off balance" that what he did seemed to be "new" rather than simply not well known. St. Symeon was truly necessary for the times he lived in...

(My dad used to describe the Pentecostal movement as a balancing - a response to the mainstream denomination's 'neglect' of the Holy Spirit.)

Good way of seeing it, IMHO, although I can also see why there was such a focus in it as it was. During the Third Great Awakening (1858-1908) teachings on holiness and sanctification, although popular, had swayed toward "sinless perfectionism" which taught that an individual could maintain a perfectly sinless life in this present world through ultra-sanctification. It was these doctrines that were prevalent during the emergence of Pentecostalism in 1904, at what would become known as the Azusa Street revival which was led by William J. Seymour.

Part of me is reminded of how every generation that has come after another has felt that they were the last generation to come before the return of Christ----and with whatever gifts of the SPirit they saw in their time that may've not been seen in another, they took it as a sign that God was doing something special in their "latter days." People felt that when there was significant issues going on and others rising up to the occassion/being blessed of God to handle it in amazing ways, God was showing that he was preparing His people/coming back soon. Whether this be with the ending of slavery/abolitionists movements that sought to end it in light of God's Judgement/Justice or with those seeking Prison Reform and destroying barriers such as Racism...or, for that matter, others feeling as if the Church was literally about to see Christ come back in the era of the Dark Ages. Another to consider would be times like the Renaissance, where there was such a resurrgence of Christian Thought/new inventions and artistic design that others felt God was truly preparing his people for something......much as it'd be in some forms of Ammilinealism where they feel that God will come back in power to redeem the world when the Church rises to the occassion and brings order to the world.

The Desert Fathers would seem to be people apart of that as well, although they differed since many of them were not trying to do things (to my knowledge) with the goal of trying to save the Empire as a whole....but to primarily save themselves/thus impact others to do the same. Whether things changed in the Byzantine Empire or not, their focus was not about the Lord restoring the Church to what it was meant to be as much as it seemed to be on how close they could get to the Lord irregardless of the season.

In Pa., the Orthodox in one area have been in joint activities/sessions with the local Mennonite community; is this the sort of thing you mean ?

Indeed, although I would love to find out more on what it is you noted there..as I never knew that happened before..

It seems to me (this instance) to be a sort of natural step, as the spiritualities of both seem similar. (And one I applaud, as I used to attend a Mennonite Church for a bit )

Slammin I didn't know you were Mennonite, although it explains some of the things you've said before which seemed similar to the types of spirits they have. Very beautiful people just as those in Orthodoxy are

This sounds neat - I haven't the time to investigate now, but do like the quote (under the audio) in the link. I'll have a listen.

Praying it'd bless you..

And I do think something like that can happen, but the trick is determining if the 'skyscrapers' are consistent with the trees - so to speak. Again, the maintaining of instruction in the intangibles, as these are important, too.

Amen

A son studied Philosophy, and though I do not know much, it is interesting to hear the sort of striving more recently (Heidegger, for example) towards something, a balance that seems to have disappeared in the west following the era of the enlightenment. The same sort of path is in evidence in Literature and Art as well as Music. So for me, I am waiting perhaps to see if what we have kept in Orthodoxy (as these searchings seem to be for things that were never lost in the east) is what we are to keep, the repository for what is being sought in these movements

.

I always amazed seeing how much of the past Orthodoxy has been successful in retaining and keeping in store (the best kept secret on many levels indeed), with them offering something others need just as other camps may have things to bring to the table from what the Lord has been doing on their side of the street. The way alot of things got off balance in the Enlightement is interesting, by the way, when seeing how it appeared to be a reaction to the ways there was not balance prior to that when the world greatly believed in theology/God but often seemed to shun science......but after the Enlightnement came things like multiple revolutions (i.e. American Revolution, French Revolution, etc), the age of Modernism and later Post-Modernism when people no longer trusted in the power of science/intellect alone to solve the problems of the world or to bring meaning. All of the things that have happened have set the stage in history for others to start a return to what was present in the Ancient Paths and people are gradually seeming to move with the herd toward what they went away from.

Indeed, He is !

Whatever we may do, He is the Head, the heart, the center.

God is good

Thanks for all of the insightful thoughts, by the way..

Gxg (G²) · May 11, 2012

Thekla said:
Certainly form can become an idol (especially when we're 'good at it'. Artists wrestle with this, as practiced forms can lose their vitality.)

Part of the store of Tradition found in retaining older "forms" is the store of 'disposition' and 'mindset'. These are intangibles that belong typically to the realm of the Arts - music, poetry, movement, visual art. This can be seen in the use of various cultural 'conceits' to express the sam intangible in Orthodoxy's spread.

Really wanted to say that I so appreciate you bringing in the dynamic of art/poetry into the discussion, as it really has helped me process things in a differing manner that connects more than what has been said by many....amazing how the arts are able to do that

Gxg (G²) · Jul 23, 2012

snowpumpkin said:
I LOVE these charts!! I am struggling with Orthodoxy BECAUSE of my studying of church history. I with this chart had been presented to me in my cathecishm class instead of this one: just search for images of the orthodoxy church timeline or chart

Praying that all is well with ya and that your class was a joy in interacting/processing things, as it was on my mind. Blessings

Gxg (G²) · Jul 31, 2012

Thekla said:
Part of the store of Tradition found in retaining older "forms" is the store of 'disposition' and 'mindset'. These are intangibles that belong typically to the realm of the Arts - music, poetry, movement, visual art. This can be seen in the use of various cultural 'conceits' to express the sam intangible in Orthodoxy's spread.

The US is a hard one, as we are multicultural, and our "culture" is actually the variety of "cultures". Our native music/s are arguably Aboriginal and Jazz (as our classical and much of our hymn base here are Euro-derivative). Blues possibly would qualify, though I have read it is the survival of African forms (much like Appalachian is a modified survival of British folk). (Interestingly, of the older musical forms, I only know of two - Jazz and the Papadic Hymn - that are 'open forms', allowing within their form an extended period of various degrees of improvisation for an unknown duration of time before the conclusion. There may be more, though.)

Don't know if you know about it, but Wheaton College has some of the best conferences in regards to culture, evolving and retaining Truth throughout......especially in regards to Music, as there was one session that dealt with the Harlem Renaissance and the ways it was used to inspire others to resist tyrannical regimes when seeing the ways music/the arts were used in a counter-cultural ideology. For more, one can go here or here, here, here, here...and Dietrich Bonhoeffer: German Christian Martyr Transformed by Experience With Harlem’s Abyssinian Baptist Church

Outside of that, there's also this most excellent review on the dynamics behind music and the ways that it shaped culture by unifying others in protest - as seen in Music as Community Organizing Methodology in the Black Freedom Movement | Amelia Charles - Academia.edu and Reds, Whites, and Blues: Social Movements, Folk Music, and Race as well as Social Movements, Music, and Race - Princeton University ....

Gxg (G²) · Aug 2, 2012

Thekla said:
.. monastics are essential to keeping the Church "on course". They have operated, at times, as the conscience and at other times the memory of the Church.

Forgot to mention earlier something I thought you'd be interested in when it comes to the issue of seperation done by the monks...as one example I was reminded of was seeing how the Irish monks travelled all over Europe, and even to Iceland and were powerful evangelists (after the fall of the Roman Empire)--but the Irish annoyed the established Church in Europe as they were wanderers and did not ‘fit in’

For more, one can go to Irish Monasticism and "The Ascetical Theology and Praxis of Sixth to Eight Century Irish Monasticism as a Radical Response to the Evangelium.". It was interesting to see what others noted when saying Christianity could not actually teach that each man and woman was in the living image of God, until this Roman-Byzantine grip was broken, which appears to have been made possible by this "Irish" Augustinian monastery movement.

It's already fascinating enough that monasticism in the Irish world (as with the Celtic Orthodox culture and Britain) was connected to the world of the Desert Fathers when seeing the history of Egypt/Britain intersecting ....in regards to the Orthodox link between Ancient Britain and Egypt . Many have no idea on the links between Orthodoxy and Ancient British Christianity (if aware of the timeline of Orthodoxy in Britain --and it's amazing to consider how one's culture may have been influenced strongly by Orthodoxy without them even knowing it.

I still get mind-boggled in regards to Irish Orthodox Monks (who kept classical literature alive after the Roman Empire fell and helped pull Europe out of the Dark Ages) and seeing the history of monasticism present there

And as it concerns the theme of separation, I do think there's something to be said on the historical impact of those who were known as Wandering Bishops (episcopi vagantes)- as their struggles in early Christianity were noteworthy since they did not have any connection many times to dioceses or Bishops of other cities people said others HAD to have had connection with ..and who got their ordination/holy orders by unusual means. And this is something I have to consider when it comes to being objective/honest with what has gone down in the history of the Church. Of course, the issue hits home closer for me due to what was shared earlier in regards to the background I come from with Orthodoxy and Wandering Bishops - as our roots flow from what occurred with others such as Archbishop Aftimios Ofiesh (in his experience when coming over to the U.S but then having certain circumstances - after he was asked to come over by the Russian Church and yet found a wife - ended up up being dismissed. The man has done immense accomplishments in the Russian Orthodox Church and the Syro-Arabian Mission which Aftimios was vicar - more shared in The Life Of The Thrice – Almoutran or the following:

THE HOLY BYZANTINE CATHOLIC ORTHODOX CHURCH (SAINT OFTIMIOS).

HISTORY OF THE

Syriac - Greek Antiochian Orthodox - Apostolic Succession

As another wisely noted:

Archbishop Aftimios was the successor to Bishop Raphael as Bishop of Brooklyn and leader of the mission to Arab Orthodox under the Russian Orthodox Church in North America. In the 1920s he attempted to establish a united English speaking American Orthodox Church believing that was the only way to end the division of Orthodox in this country. Unfortunately, the rest of Orthodoxy denounced him. Even the Russian bishops, who originally supported Archbishop Aftimios finally denounced him.

Signifiantly, they did so after yielding to pressure from the Episcopalians who were offended because Archbishop Aftimios converted several Episcopal clergy to Orthodoxy. At that time, the Episcopalians were trying to persuade Orthodox that they did not need to establish Orthodox Churches, but should join the Episcopal Church instead, claiming that the Episcopal Church was the Orthodox Church of the West. They even had a committee called the Standing Commission for the Americanization of the Foreign Born, their idea of Americanization being leaving the Orthodox Church and joining the Episcopal Church. Archbishop Aftimios rightly opposed them and they began to pressure the Russian bishops to turn against him. At that time, the Russian bishops were receiving money and even buildings from the Episcopal Church.

...It is a great tragedy that he was not successful. Had he been Orthodoxy would be in a whole lot better shape in this country today. There never was a real sharp division between parishes under Archbishop Aftimios as Archbishop of Brooklyn of what became the Metropolia and those under Archbishop Aftimios as head of an autocephalous American Orthodox Church. However, all of the real parishes under Archbishop Aftimios' group eventually joined the other Arab Orthodox Churches to form the Antiochian Archdiocese which is the real successor to the efforts of Archbishop Aftimios.

....It is correct that Archbishop Aftimios challenged the claims of the Episcopalians to be the Orthodox Church of the West. Bishop Raphael had done the same. Unfortunately, during the early part of Orthodox history in the United States, some Orthodox authorities actually told Orthodox Christians to attend Episcopal Churches if no Orthodox Church was available. The problem with that was not only that the Episcopal Church is not Orthodox, but that if Orthodox Christians begin to attend non Orthodox Churches, they will not organize Orthodox Churches... Archbishop Aftimios also criticized Orthodox bishops who got too close to the Episcopalians including Metropolitan Planton who made a speech in Connecticut during which he stated that there is no real difference between the Episcopal Church and the Orthodox Church.

Outside of the issue of marriage being a focus since many in the Church have noted the ways Bishops/leaders have noted it to not be a problem over the years, When he established an American Orthodox Church, I could understand why there was a lot of differing views - as some say he did so without the other Russian bishops agreement while Some say there was even though the Russian Orthodox Church in Exile didn't agree ...part of the reason why everything fell through - even though Aftimios continued in the work he was originally commissioned to do - and he is best known as being the source of numerous lines of succession of episcopi vagantes. Where I come from, again, is one of those places that was connected with him - as the Bishop I worked with had Orthodox fellowship based out of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church .....with what's known as The Brotherhood of Orthodox Servants of Jesus....and, already being Jewish himself, felt the Lord call him to Rabbinical studies in addition to the work he did in Orthodoxy when it comes to bridging the gap between Eastern and Western culture. He still talks with others who are Orthodox, including the priest he was ordained under (serving as both a deacon and in other roles while also doing prison chaplain ministry) - and our parish is in the process of becoming a Orthodox Mission Parish (as our focus is on the Monastic community/values (including the Early Church in its development) and valuing Jewish culture due to our make-up as other scholars have pointed out) and we've done work with other Orthodox communities (including the Brotherhood of St. Moses the Black and St Herman of Alaska Brotherhood)...but it is still odd whenever others say all aspects of wandering bishops are negative.

Wandering bishops (as the term was originally descriptive of rather than what it came to mean derisively later on in a perjorative sense for anything with independence - as many do in ignorance with other groups differing from them) ....IMHO, they are not something I've seen to be opposite of the example in the early Church. As you've alerted me before, even within the EO, some (like St. Nektarios of Aegina) have had trouble and this is something others in the EO need to remember. For Gregory of Nyssa, or Gregory the Theologian both were attacked by what was then the "official Church"....and the same also goes for St. Maximos the Great. Modern day examples that come to mind are others such as Father Mark of Scetis who became a wandering scholar-monk, not unlike those known in the European Middle Ages , after having some troubles after his priestly ordination and others receiving him due to the question others had - the question stating "Can an African be a Coptic Bishop for the Africans?" .

But all of that is said to note how the seperatist concept isn't something that's hidden when dealing with the facts...and if we are to honor the Early Church, we must honor the example of others in what they chose to do at times. Moreover, seeing how extensive/multifaceted and diverse the Body of Christ is and has been throughout history (as shared here, here and here or in #5/#19 #24/#63 / #71 /#126 ) - even as it concerns Patristics and the various views of the Fathers themselves and much of the Orthodox Church for anyone honest on the matter - we must hold sacred the concept of serving others as the ultimate focus of our lives - for what matters most at the end of the day is whether or not we served one another/took it as an honor to wash the feet of those in the Body rather be so focused on what position another has. For when what Christ noted in John 13 as the thing to define us becomes non-important and we value where we stand in the hierarchy of life, something's off...and our theology is no longer living

Gxg (G²) · Feb 4, 2014

Thekla said:
I'm no historian, but I do think that the monastics are essential to keeping the Church "on course". They have operated, at times, as the conscience and at other times the memory of the Church.

It seems the Holy Fools are not unlike the desert monastics, but recognize the desert in "civilized" locales.
.

Forgot to mention earlier the ways that the Desert Ideal was something that truly crossed continents and amazing to see the monastic ideology cross many places .....and yet because of it, much of civilization was often benefited.

One excellent read on the issue that was beneficial was Art, Coptic and Irish Claremont Coptic Encyclopedia

The other read was The Desert Fathers: Anthony and the Beginnings of Monasticism (which gives good food for thought on the Irish adaption of the desert) - and moreover, there's an excellent book on the issue which I thought you'd be blessed by - entitled "The Egyptian Desert in the Irish Bogs: The Byzantine Character of Early Celtic Monasticism"

Although more could be said on the issue, I thought this was an excellent summation on the book:

_The Egyptian Desert in the Irish Bogs: The Byzantine Character of Early Celtic Monasticism_ by Fr. Gregory Telepneff is a lengthy essay that discusses the topic of the Irish Church, founded by the noted Orthodox luminary, Saint Patrick. What differentiates the Celtic Church (in Ireland and Scotland) was the Church's center of gravity were the monastic Abbots/Bishops and the strict ascetic nature of Celtic monasticism. Fr. Telepneff begins his analysis by differentiating the different strains of monastic practice that originated in the Middle East during the early period of the Church. Palestinian-Syrian monks practiced a semi-coenobitic life, with an emphasis on study, as exemplified by the Latin Saint Jerome who was well versed in Hebrew and Greek and traveled to the Holy Land. The monks of Cappadocia, personified by St. Basil the Great placed the most stress on learning and a coenobitic/communal life. The most ascetic of monastic groups, however, arose in Egypt (the Copts) following the Desert Father, St. Anthony the Great. These monks were the most concerned with total renunciation of the world, many of them becoming anchorites, or hermits living in total isolation and prayer in the sterile desert. Telepneff notes the system of different types of martyrdom recognized in the traditions of the Orthodox Church. White martyrdom consists of renouncing the things of the world, including family ties for the sake of Christ. Green martyrdom takes the otherworldliness a step further and seeks salvation in living in total isolation from the world, they way of solitary hermits. Red martyrdom is of course where one goes down in blood in witness to Christ and partakes in His sufferings. Celtic monasticism follows the model of the Coptic Fathers, and maintained a strong tradition of "Green Martyrdom." Numerous eastern, including Egyptian texts were found in the possession of Celtic monasteries. St. Patrick, the Irish monk/bishop who converted the Celts in Ireland in particular was influenced by the monasticism of the East. There are similarities between Celtic artwork and illuminated manuscripts and those found in Egypt and Byzantium as well. There are some legends of monks traveling from the Eastern Mediterranean all the way to Ireland in the West and Irish ascetics traveling to Egypt, Byzantium and the Middle East. Fr. Telepneff speculates to great length that the Eastern influences in the Celtic Church were derived from Gaul, the obvious conduit, although Gaul was nowhere as similar to the Christian East in its traditions. He concludes that the Celtic Church formed from direct contact and reciprocation between Celtic and Coptic monks and the numerous writings of the Eastern Fathers circulating in Ireland.

Basing his arguments on monastic rules, lives of Saints, manuscript illuminations, ecclesiastical architecture, and liturgical texts, Father Gregory presented a very compelling case for the Eastern origins of the distinctively Celtic form of monastic life - showing the many striking similarities between the world of the Desert Fathers and the ancient world of Irish Orthodox Christianity, deeply saturated by the monastic ideal.

The issue is fascinating to consider when it comes to others such as St. Patrick (who I had to study for a project coming up) and the ways that he was very much alone in the desert of where he was ....and yet he literally made it into something more even as he was outside the world where Christianity/the Church developed.

How the Celts Saved Britain - A New Civilization - YouTube
How The Celts Saved Britain - Dark Ages and the Celts
Meet the Real St. Patrick - YouTube

And as alone as he was, he was still connected deeply to what God was doing to His Church throughout eternity - much as discussed before:

Gxg (G²);64660271 said:
Originally Posted by Thekla

Wherever (and whenever) we sojourn, those who are His are united to Him and with all in Him.

Gxg (G²);64660271 said:

And within scripture, we do see many instances of where even Christ left others alone to do ministry in unique ways at times while he worked with other groups - and yet that was a part of his plan to later connect groups together while also making room for more advancement (more shared here and As another noted best on the situation of Luke 9:49-51 ).

As said elsewhere, it'd be interesting to see how many apostles may've been present that we do not know about - almost as if they're "unsung heros" like soldiers in battle you never hear of due to the missions they were given (many covert and special operations) and often living lives no one knew of because they were in the background....yet the ones who were seen get all the credit for making the mission successful.

There are times other leaders have too much image/prestige to do certain things in other venues...and thus, it's beneficial to have other leaders who are less public" than others

As mentioned earlier, the man in Luke 9 (who was casting out demons in the name of Christ) comes immediately to mind For we have no idea of the fullness of what Christ did with others OUTSIDE of the 12 - and we shouldn't be surprised that He did things. For some who he utilized as missionaries of His Gospel, they were not allowed to be seen publically with the apostles wherever he went. In example, with the Demoniac he healed - as Jesus sent him away with purpose. ...for as the text says, “ As Jesus was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed begged to go with him.19 Jesus did not let him, but said, Go home to your own people and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you.” (Mark 5:19 / Mark 5:1 /Mark 5:20 ). The next time Jesus came to the region, there were some 4,000 others waiting to hear from Him (Mark 7:31/Mark 8.1). ..and the man, as a Gentile, did what he did in reaching OTHER Gentiles where they were at/telling them of Jesus in a way Gentiles could understand. Surely this man played a key role in creating this second scene by his faithful witness. And yet you have to wonder - was there any follow up with the man and the Lord? Surely there had to have been some sort of encouragement for him in his work if he struggled - and as the Lord is able to communicate with others beyond speaking one on one/in person, I'd not be surprised if Christ had dialouges with him via the Holy Spirit or messengers while the other apostles were busy doing other things.

There was the reality that the Lord works with others in differing ways - regardless of where they are at....and scripture doesn't have to always record all the details.

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Gxg (G²) · Mar 12, 2015

Thekla said:
Orthodoxy seems to have naturally developed a system of checks and balances, a sort of moderation between the Church (if understood as hierarchy), the monastics, and the laity. As if no one of the three has "the answer", but it is in the interchange and balance between them.

Found an excellent review on the subject of monasticism that I was very much glad for - as seen here in the following:

Ideals

And on how their work related to what has happened in other religious contexts as inspiration:

Desert Fathers as the First true Buddhists ..

Wisdom of the Desert Fathers: Zen Buddhist Monks

Useful to keep in mind when seeing the spirit of the monastics in how it helped to keep things on course in line with others who may not have been monastics ...and yet still lived out the monastic ideal. Of course, even outside of Orthodoxy, it is interesting to see how others have sought to live out this ideal in one way or another - more shared on this elsewhere:

Gxg (G²);64540254 said:
Kurisumala Ashram - a Cistercian Monastery in Syro-Malankara Catholic Church. (and spearheaded by Francis Acharya - with Francis's work DRASTICALLY different from Fr. Bede Griffithswho took things later into a New Age direction with groups trying to mirror what began with Francis when Fr. Bede helped in the initial stages....even though Kurisumala has been brought back into safety early on for its protection due to what Francis did - for it was begun in early 1958 in the Syro-Malankara Diocese of Tiru- valla and was incorporated into the Cistercian Order in July 1998)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qlpSRfxFys

Gxg (G²);66123191 said:

..some of the people who seem the least concerned for all of the fears arising on the planet and its mistreatment (Even though they have said it is a problem) would be the Buddhist Monks in the monasteries throughout Asia.

I really appreciate the Buddhist Monks and their mindsets - with them being very similar to the Desert Fathers in how introspective they are and disciplined, as well as aware of there being more to this life than this physical reality - something which has led to a lot of dialogues between Buddhists and Christians on differing levels.

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But with the Buddhists monks, it intrigues me to see how they seem to have accepted a finality on the entire issue with feeling that there are greater concerns that are to be held to - and Zen master Thich Nhat Hanh noted that "only love can save us from climate change." In his view, most people are not responding to the threat of global warming, despite overwhelming scientific evidence, because they are unable to save themselves from their own personal suffering - thus making themselves too burdened to worry about the battles impacting the Earth/Nature. Although he has outlined practical ways to address global warming before in his books (such as The World We Have: A Buddhist Approach to Peace and Ecology: Easyread Large and The Blooming of a Lotus: Revised Edition of the Classic Guided Meditation ), he has still been of the mindset that nothing is permanent and there needs to be a willingness to not hold so tightly to things. It amazes me that the man is one at great peace even as he predicts the possible collapse of civilisation within 100 years as a result of runaway climate change. - more in ECOBUDDHISM :: Only love can save us from climate change and ECOBUDDHISM :: BOOK - Contents, Overview, Excerpts

Through meditation and education and acts of love one person at a time, change is a gradual process. We see that today, in countries such as Thailand and Japan, many Buddhist monks are active in Green groups.. And we can see in places like Bhutan where there is immense security due to how others handle themselves - more noted in Water and Climate in the Himalayas and Buddhism and climate change | Sujatoâ€™s Blog

BBC: Extreme Pilgrim - Shaolin Monastery - YouTube

There have been cases of others standing in the way of aggressive destruction of the environment (like these Buddhist monks in Cambodia blessing trees which are about to be destroyed to make way for a banana plantation - with the orange cloth making them sacred and used in the hopes of deterring loggers from cutting them down.

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But if things do not change, there's no sense in fear being promoted within that system.

Gxg (G²);67087269 said:

Mahamrityunjaya Mantra
ॐ त्रिएक परमेश्वर यजामहे सुगन्धिंम् पुष्टिवर्धनम् ।
उर्वारुकमिव बन्धनान् मृत्योर्मुक्षीय मामृतात्

Prayer to the One who is Victorious over Death I worship the Three-in-One God who is fragrant and who nourishes and nurtures all beings. As a cucumber is freed from its bondage by the gardener, may He liberate me from bondage to death unto eternal life

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Gxg (G²);64540254 said:
Gxg (G²);66123191 said:

Gxg (G²);67087269 said:

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Gxg (G²);67109258 said:

..if seeing life within the Malankara Orthodox Church, There are Asharams, in the Christian Monastic tradition that have done stellar with regards to their use of icons to glorify the Lord while also keeping their culture in tact - with people who valued that and coming to mind being others like E.Stanley Jones - and it is so timely what they do. Here are some, for example, from others who are are Yeshu Bhakta (more on them here and here, here and here):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiu9Z8pL7Ds

ARADHNA - Yeshu Muktinath (Official Music Video) - YouTube

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GregConstantine · Mar 16, 2015

so many images and youtube video links!

Gxg (G²) · Mar 16, 2015

GregConstantine said:
so many images and youtube video links!

Of course - and with that said, one is always welcome to actually address content in the thread itself as others have, if actually dealing with the OP subject respectfully

Gxg (G²) · Mar 16, 2015

Thekla said:
Death to the World - The Last True Rebellion

The parallel is apt - most 'punks' I knew (and the movement in general) were a reaction against values held by the status quo. (I think the DiY movement was more interesting, as it was not a "reaction against" something, but had a similar ethos). As with Dada - this sense of 'something is wrong' can be found in Art, Literature, Philosophy, etc.

The work by the men from "Death to the World" and the Brotherhood of St. Herman of Alaska is so timely in how they go about things....and interestingly enough, there are similar individuals doing work like that - if remembering Turbo Quails and his work with Tattoos:

Gxg (G²);65110837 said:
Wonderful man (and the saint he was named after is cool as well)...truly amazing what he has been about...more shared in http://www.stbarnabasoc.org/about-us/presenting-orthodoxy-to-a-new-generation/

Turbo Qualls - Young Adult Retreat - April 20, 2013 - YouTube

Turbo Qualls on Mission in America - Great lenten lectures series of 2012. - YouTube

Turbo Qualls April 18 2013 - YouTube

Gxg (G²);66435168 said:

The work of Fr. Kurlenko using the art of rap via Hip Hop (also known to many as lyrical theology due to how it's similar to where others took theology and made it accessible to others with contextualized psalms, hymns & spiritual songs ) to promote Orthodox thought reminds me of others using their gifts to speak on Orthodoxy in cultures often neglected - as is the case with others like Turbo Quails in his work as a Tattoo Artist

It's also nice seeing the work of Fr. Kurlenko and the ways it mirrors what others sought to do with Rock & Roll culture - as was the case with the St Herman of Alaska Brotherhood and Death To The World

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- both of which address those who were punk-rock counter-culture kids who were often avoided by people in the church who hated all things in their culture instead of choosing to reach out to them by reminding them of the example of the Fathers in how they could relate

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Desertion in the Desert: Examining Whether the Desert Fathers Were Seperatists..

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