Describe the Trinity as best you can

humblemuslim · Feb 13, 2009

The entire purpose of this thread is for believers in the Trinity to describe the doctrine, preferably in some unique personal wording. There are obviously Church Creeds commonly quoted without further explanation:

Nicene Creed

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Athanasian Creed

1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

Christians can also refer people to artwork (Most of these raise more questions than they answer):

Explain the concept of three persons as One God. Feel free to quote any Scripture, but I am more interested in how someone conforms this belief with a Monotheistic viewpoint. Also describe the relationship, attributes, and abilities of these "Persons".

All other religions that contain any similar concept are all polytheistic, as would be expected. But Christianity asserts both Monotheism and a Triune-Godhead. Some would view this as a contradiction of beliefs, others a paradox, and yet others see no problem with it in the least.

Some Christians will say it is beyond our understanding and all explanations are flawed. So then I ask, what is the point of God revealing a nature that is beyond our understanding? Let alone revealing it in such a under-toned manner. No where in the Bible does it plainly state the belief stated plainly in the Creeds. Instead we find some places that appear to conflict such an idea, and others that could be interpreted to fit the doctrine. In several places where the Scripture could have clearly supported the Trinity without question, we find it is not done.

EDIT: I removed those huge pictures. They are making the thread difficult to read

Chesterton · Feb 13, 2009

AV1611VET · Feb 13, 2009

God is three Persons in One, with each Person capable of violating the Law of Non-contradiction.

humblemuslim · Feb 13, 2009

Hi Chesterton,

Can you explain that picture?

humblemuslim · Feb 13, 2009

AV1611VET said:
God is three Persons in One, with each Person capable of violating the Law of Non-contradiction.

That's a new way of putting it. I've never seen this description before, specifically the last part.

Thanks for sharing.

AV1611VET · Feb 13, 2009

humblemuslim said:
That's a new way of putting it. I've never seen this description before, specifically the last part.

Thanks for sharing.

My pleasure, sir ---

Chesterton · Feb 13, 2009

humblemuslim said:
Hi Chesterton,

Can you explain that picture?

I think it's just a rough picture of what AV1611VET said - three things in one.

We humans are each one person in one, and of course there's no way to fully conceive of anything different. But there's no reason to assume the Supreme Being is limited to that. Each of us is one person, we are "personal", but He is super-personal.

Justaman0000 · Feb 13, 2009

God the Father is above all, even Christ. Even Paul acknowledged this. Even Jesus said the Father was greater than him. And only the Father knows the time set for the end. And only the Father decides who sits beside the Lord Jesus in Heaven. Jesus is above all things beside the Father. He has all authority and power, even power to forgive sins, and he is even to be worshipped. And the Holy spirit is the Power from the Father that gives life. The Holy power that brings everything together that makes us all one in Christ and the Father. May God bless you with understanding.

I like this verse:

Daniel 7:13-14
In my vision at night i looked and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of days and waas led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power, all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass. away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

humblemuslim · Feb 13, 2009

Chesterton said:
I think it's just a rough picture of what AV1611VET said - three things in one.

We humans are each one person in one, and of course there's no way to fully conceive of anything different. But there's no reason to assume the Supreme Being is limited to that. Each of us is one person, we are "personal", but He is super-personal.

Of course. I am not about to advocate that God must be made up of atoms, because all existence that we know of is.

I personally have disagreements with this belief, but I am open to listening to what Christians believe about the Trinity.

The people who stubbornly state their views without listening really are doing no justice to the subject.

humblemuslim · Feb 13, 2009

Justaman0000 said:
God the Father is above all, even Christ. Even Paul acknowledged this. Even Jesus said the Father was greater than him. And only the Father knows the time set for the end. And only the Father decides who sits beside the Lord Jesus in Heaven. Jesus is above all things beside the Father. He has all authority and power, even power to forgive sins, and he is even to be worshipped. And the Holy spirit is the Power from the Father that gives life. The Holy power that brings everything together that makes us all one in Christ and the Father. May God bless you with understanding.

I like this verse:

Daniel 7:13-14
In my vision at night i looked and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of days and waas led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power, all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass. away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Question:

So do you believe in the co-equality attributed to the persons of the Trinity? If so, in what sense?

tansy · Feb 13, 2009

I don't know if you've heard of this illustration.

Think of water, ice and steam - they all appear slightly different, yet they are all H20,,,they are the same essence and substance.

Thus, God is one, yet three.

I'm sure this is not a perfect illustration...but it is hard to grasp God intellectually in many ways.

ephraimanesti · Feb 13, 2009

MY BROTHER, i am loath to attempt the task you have set--attempting to describe the indescribable--but i would like to share the following with you in the hopes it will have the same explanatory meaning for you as it did for me--perhaps not so much in the mind but in the heart:

“Before the world was made,
The Mind, Word, and Breath were One,
Sharing in the One Essence, above all essences.
The Oneness of these Persons is a mystery
Whose vastness cannot be comprehended by even the highest spirits.
Nevertheless, we attempt to give a name to this mystery of oneness:
The name of Love.
A name so great that, finding it impossible to give it due reverence,
People despair and treat it as commonplace.

"The Mind, Word and Breath had this perfect Love between them.
Not only did they have this Love,
They are this Love.
Therefore, Love existed before the world was made.
For the Three have one nature, one will, one power, one operation.
As One, They do not blend or become confused,
But They cleave to each other, having their being in each other.
This is the perfect love, the original unity, the original harmony, the final mystery
To which no human thought has ever succeeded in rising.

"The Love of the Maker of all things cannot merely be extended outwardly, to the universe made by Him.
In the Three this Love is directed inwardly also, within the Primal Essence:
In the mystical inward life, hidden in the depths of the Divinity.
For the Three have always been One.
But the world did not know this Love
Until the Word Himself came into it,
Making a quiet entrance in Bethlehem,
Sent by the Mind as the Messenger to the world
Of the Primal Love that had created it.

"The Word is begotten of the Mind,
The Breath proceeds from the Mind,
Yet there was never a time when the Mind existed without the Word and Breath.
They dwelt in the Darkness that was before darkness, outside time,
Yet They made all things within time,
For time and darkness came into being only when movement and light were made.

"By Thinking which is beyond thought, the Primal Essence creates.
The Word brings forth and fulfills the command of the Mind,
The Action-Breath accomplishes and perfects,
And with these two hands of the Mind,
Thought becomes deed—

"And all that is is."

from CHRIST THE ETERNAL TAO by Hieromonk Damascene

IN CHRIST,
ephraim

Justaman0000 · Feb 13, 2009

humblemuslim said:
Question:

So do you believe in the co-equality attributed to the persons of the Trinity? If so, in what sense?

Its not that they are equal its that they are one through the Holy spirit. They rule as one.

ebia · Feb 13, 2009

humblemuslim said:
The entire purpose of this thread is for believers in the Trinity to describe the doctrine, preferably in some unique personal wording.

I don't think an abstracted doctine is a good approach to Trinity. If that's what you want, then I don't think you can do better than the Athanasian Creed, but that's not how the bible approaches the issue.

Rather, it approaches the issue through stories (explicit and implicit) that gradually show the nature of God as a single God but three persons in unique relationship.

ProScribe · Feb 14, 2009

The Holy Trinity - Incomprehensible mystery.

DrBubbaLove · Feb 16, 2009

One God, in Three Persons. Understand how, no.

maybenotcrazy · Feb 16, 2009

It is like a point in 3d space. You can move in three different perpendicular lines vertical left right forward backward or you can move along all three lines at the same time if you think like cartesian coordinates. If you project from a position in space not on an axis you always get a point on each line (3 points) but one point in space if you are along a line you get one point on the line and a projection on the origin. The point is if you focus on one aspect of the trinity the other two appear as one and it appears as one. Think of a corner in a room bordering on the floor. Imagine it duplicated 8 times around the cusp of the corner. Then you have 3d space and that is what I'm describing. The trinity is always a projection of 3 points from one in open space off of an axis.
You could think of the x axis as son, y axis holy spirit and z axis as father. Then you have a situation in which if you focus on the father as the essence of the Godhead you get son and holy spirit projected on the origin. Etc. When christ came to the earth the theophany of his baptism was equal parts of each so it would be along a line 45 degrees to each axis. This is hardly a good explanation, just a concept to hang the trinity on so you don't have to cry about it.

Chesterton · Feb 17, 2009

maybenotcrazy - That is an interesting concept for the Lord "who art in all places and fillest all things".

Lukaris · Feb 17, 2009

God, the Trinity of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, One in essence and undivided, coexistent and coeternal. As the God of eternity proceeded to create..."And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..." (Genesis 1:26, King James Vesion, KJV). The Trinity as spoken by the prophet Isaiah, "Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was , there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit hath sent me." (Isaiah 48:16, KJV) a prophecy of the sending of the Son who became Jesus Christ our Saviour. The Son is also called the Word, 'In the beginning was the Word, and Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1,KJV). The incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ, "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (John 1:14,KJV). The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me." (John 15:26,KJV). The Trinity in the salvation of our souls, "For through him (Jesus Christ) we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father." (Ephesians 2:18,KJV). God bless.

maybenotcrazy · Feb 17, 2009

Chesterton said:
maybenotcrazy - That is an interesting concept for the Lord "who art in all places and fillest all things".

I'm not sure if you're serious or joking (I'm bad with that stuff). I guess if he is in all places and fillest all things, every single one of his points has 3 coordinates so it still works

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