Deportations

[ThatRobGuy]

It's been a hot button topic since the election given Trump's promise to conduct the largest operation of that sort in US history.

My question for those who oppose the plan. Is there any level of deportation you would agree with? Any common ground at all?

For instance, the ~130,000 that have been federally sentenced? Or the 26% of federal inmates that are illegal aliens? Or the ~53,000 that have been detained multiple times (for crimes unrelated to their undocumented status) by either state police or US Marshals? Or the 17,000 who have known whereabouts and known criminal convictions in their origin country?

The reason why I ask is because as a centrist, I do feel this is an issue where it'd be preferable to have a "middle ground" solution.

But when I talk to people from the two factions, their "starting place" seems to be positions you can't negotiate with.


"Deport them all" isn't a reasonable starting place... if someone was brought here when they were 2 (illegally) by their parents due to no fault of their own, but have lived here for the last 18 years, sending them back to a country (that they have no recollection of and maybe don't even speak the language of) at age 20 is obviously cruel.

On the Flip side, "We can't deport anyone, because anything that causes family separation is unacceptable" isn't a reasonable starting place either, and certainly doesn't line up with how we handle criminal justice for our own residents. IE: Joe and Jane Smith born in Indiana rob a bank "We can't lock them up, because that would separate them from their son who would have to go into foster care" isn't a consideration that's ever made.


So, is there a level or scope of deportation that both sides CAN agree on? Or has the topic become so politically entrenched that the opportunity for compromise is in the rear-view mirror by about a decade?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

My concern is separating children from their parents again.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

My concern is separating children from their parents again.

That's the answer I hear a lot...but like I said, that's not a consideration we make even for our own citizens.

By that standard, anyone who's a parent of someone under 18 couldn't ever get jail time, regardless of infraction, because it would involve separation.

We do need to be pragmatic about this.

The demand for "there can't be any separation of children from their parents" is basically saying "crime is unpunishable for anyone who's a parent"


Replace "immigrant who committed a crime" with "Joe Davis, born and raised in Arkansas and robbed a bank", and see if the argument still makes sense when you say it out loud.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

That's the answer I hear a lot...but like I said, that's not a consideration we make even for our own citizens.

By that standard, anyone who's a parent of someone under 18 couldn't ever get jail time, regardless of infraction, because it would involve separation.

We do need to be pragmatic about this.

The demand for "there can't be any separation of children from their parents" is basically saying "crime is unpunishable for anyone who's a parent"


Replace "immigrant who committed a crime" with "Joe Davis, born and raised in Arkansas and robbed a bank", and see if the argument still makes sense when you say it out loud.

Apples and oranges.
You hold undocumented = robbing bank?
That sounds just to you?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Apples and oranges.
You hold undocumented = robbing bank?
That sounds just to you?

It's not apples and oranges...

By the very nature of being undocumented and trying to gain employment, even working in the US often involves a litany of criminal activity...

In the past 20 years, millions of instances of identity theft involved illegal immigrants using stolen social security numbers in order to apply for jobs and work.

If I used someone else's kids SSN number that someone else provided me that they bought of the Dark web, and I used it to falsify documents, obtain employment, and then skip out on the tax bill, there would be some sort of punishment for that, correct? If that punishment included jail time, would anyone be making sympathetic arguments in my favor for reasons of "preventing family separation"?


And like I noted,
130,000 that have been federally sentenced
26% of federal inmates that are illegal aliens
53,000 that have been detained multiple times (for crimes unrelated to their undocumented status) by either state police or US Marshals
17,000 who have known whereabouts and known criminal convictions in their origin country

Can we at least agree on that subset being deported?

 

[durangodawood]

....By the very nature of being undocumented and trying to gain employment, even working in the US involves a litany of criminal activity...
.

That is a terrible argument and I wish it would stop.

Yes there's law violations in being undocumented. But they are of the sort of violations that indicate nothing about whether youre inclined to actually harm people. People who would steal or kill are a different category of individual altogether.

Its apples and oranges.

 

[rjs330]

That is a terrible argument and I wish it would stop.

Yes there's law violations in being undocumented. But they are of the sort of violations that indicate nothing about whether youre inclined to actually harm people. People who would steal or kill are a different category of individual altogether.

Its apples and oranges.

So the argument is as long as you don't physically harm anyone you can come here illegally without fear of deportation?

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

For instance, the ~130,000 that have been federally sentenced? Or the 26% of federal inmates that are illegal aliens? Or the ~53,000 that have been detained multiple times (for crimes unrelated to their undocumented status) by either state police or US Marshals? Or the 17,000 who have known whereabouts and known criminal convictions in their origin country?

Aren't there character provisions for visas in the US? In a large number of countries, criminal convictions would see you fail the character test, your visa would be cancelled and you would be deported.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Aren't there character provisions for visas in the US? In a large number of countries, criminal convictions would see you fail the character test, your visa would be cancelled and you would be deported.

Correct, but if that's the case, then we shouldn't have a case where it's being framed as "all deportations" = "inhumane"

 

[durangodawood]

So the argument is as long as you don't physically harm anyone you can come here illegally without fear of deportation?

It's a very crooked path from my post to that conclusion. I don't think I can follow.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

That is a terrible argument and I wish it would stop.

Yes there's law violations in being undocumented. But they are of the sort of violations that indicate nothing about whether youre inclined to actually harm people. People who would steal or kill are a different category of individual altogether.

Its apples and oranges.

It's not though, there's literally millions of people right now (many of them kids), who, in 5-10 years from now, will find out that their social security was used to apply for employment.

Now, obviously, any IRS auditor worth their salt will realize that a 16-year-old who's applying for their first job at a grocery store isn't guilty of tens of thousands of dollars' worth of tax evasion, but still...

Would we grant the same level of leniency to one of our citizens for such an infraction that impacted someone else?

I understand the narrative of "Trump said mean things about Mexicans" therefore, there's people who want to correct for that, but in pragmatic terms, if a regular old American citizen used your kids SSN to apply for a job or open credit in their name, would the tone be as sympathetic? Or is that sympathy rooted in the fact that a person you don't like was saying mean things about them?

 

[Fantine]

The cities that are incorrectly called "sanctuary cities" have a policy very similar to the OP.
NYC's mayor says that they will apprehend undocumented immigrants who commit crimes and refer them to ICE. On the other hand, many immigrants are gainfully employed and contribute to the economic vitality of the city.
In my experience, NYC might not have a single Uber driver without immigrants, and they come from every continent except Antarctica.
I think NYC's policy is good.

 

[ozso]

They're going to start with deporting those who have committed crimes beyond entering America illegally. Crimes both here and in their homeland. That's who Trump wants out of here.

Anytime he talks about illegal immigration being a problem, he talks about all the ones who were criminals and even convicts in their homeland coming over or being sent over here.

Getting rid of all of those particular illegals will take a lot of time.

In the meantime I hear caravans are turning back now.

Illegal alien gang members and crime lords and their crews might decide to vacate on their own terms before getting nabbed.

 

[durangodawood]

It's not though, there's literally millions of people right now (many of them kids), who, in 5-10 years from now, will find out that their social security was used to apply for employment.

Now, obviously, any IRS auditor worth their salt will realize that a 16-year-old who's applying for their first job at a grocery store isn't guilty of tens of thousands of dollars' worth of tax evasion, but still...

Would we grant the same level of leniency to one of our citizens for such an infraction that impacted someone else?

I understand the narrative of "Trump said mean things about Mexicans" therefore, there's people who want to correct for that, but in pragmatic terms, if a regular old American citizen used your kids SSN to apply for a job or open credit in their name, would the tone be as sympathetic? Or is that sympathy rooted in the fact that a person you don't like was saying mean things about them?

Youre venturing out beyond what I said. Im distinguishing between the kind of people who intend to harm others for their own benefit, and those who dont. Its an apples oranges difference, even if theyre all fruits.

I'm not even stating what I think the policy going forward should be for these various apples and oranges. Except that we can safely consider these two categories quite separately if we're inclined. You even said you might consider that as a "middle ground" solution in your own OP - if I understood you.

And of course I resent Trumps vile language. What decent person wouldnt? "Poisoning the blood of our country." But thats beside the point Im making.

 

[Fantine]

When my daughter was in school she was a server in a Mexican restaurant. One of her co-workers was undocumented. She used her cousin's name and social security #, but her cousin wound up having to pay the price at tax time--with two jobs, two W2's. etc.

I never paid that much attention, but I'm sure that the cousin who worked with my daughter had to do something to compensate the girl with the extra taxes.

 

[RileyG]

My concern is separating children from their parents again.

Very valid concern…,families belong together…

 

[RileyG]

So the argument is as long as you don't physically harm anyone you can come here illegally without fear of deportation?

Would they be considered refugees seeking asylum or no?

 

[RileyG]

The cities that are incorrectly called "sanctuary cities" have a policy very similar to the OP.
NYC's mayor says that they will apprehend undocumented immigrants who commit crimes and refer them to ICE. On the other hand, many immigrants are gainfully employed and contribute to the economic vitality of the city.
In my experience, NYC might not have a single Uber driver without immigrants, and they come from every continent except Antarctica.
I think NYC's policy is good.

I live in a city with many immigrants from Vietnam, South Sudan and others

I believe people ALL PEOPLE have a right to live where they choose LEGALLY.

After all, unless you’re a Native American, you’re of immigrant descent.

My great grandmother came from the former Czechoslovakia in the late 1800s, she died in the early 1970s and only knew czech, not a word of English.

 

[BCP1928]

So the argument is as long as you don't physically harm anyone you can come here illegally without fear of deportation?

That has always been the case. Illegal economic migrants and visa overstays--those who are here illegally--are generally safe as long as they keep their heads down and stay out of trouble. It's asylum seekers--the "convoys"--and refugees who seem to be the most at risk for deportation under a Trump administration.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

For instance, the ~130,000 that have been federally sentenced? Or the 26% of federal inmates that are illegal aliens? Or the ~53,000 that have been detained multiple times (for crimes unrelated to their undocumented status) by either state police or US Marshals? Or the 17,000 who have known whereabouts and known criminal convictions in their origin country?

If you read what you wrote, many of these people have been, Federally sentenced, in Federal prisons, detained or flagged as a criminal. That being said, we have " due process" in the USA. Due process is enshrined in the U.S. Constitution's Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments, which prohibit the government from depriving individuals of "life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."