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Denying all evidence

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Assyrian

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ivebeenshown said:
I have acknowledged that nothing the LORD can do would make him unjust, and the LORD can do anything.

Job 26:13
By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.
Click to expand...
More modern translations say "his hand pierced the fleeing serpent." But that is beside the point.

What you have touched on there is an idea called the Euthyphro dilemma described by Plato. Basically it asks:
“Is something moral because God commands it, or does God command it because it is moral?”

Are honesty and justice only considered moral because that is what God commands and if God commanded us to be cruel, to lie, deceive and steal. would they be virtues instead?

But I think Abraham's declaration places him firmly on the other side of the argument, God's actions are not right simply because God does them, but God, the righteous judge of all the world, will only do what is intrinsically right.
 
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ivebeenshown

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Assyrian said:
More modern translations say "his hand pierced the fleeing serpent." But that is beside the point.
Click to expand...

Strong's Hebrew Dictionary: 2342. chuwl

Formed (2342) the crooked serpent

Same word here in Job 15:7...

7Art thou the first man that was born? or wast thou made (2342) before the hills?

What you have touched on there is an idea called the Euthyphro dilemma described by Plato. Basically it asks:
“Is something moral because God commands it, or does God command it because it is moral?”
Click to expand...

Actually I'm 'touching on' a concept called 'hard determinism' by my own belief in it. And I know it's a touchy subject among many. But it is my firm belief that our days are ordained.

Psalms 139
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

Of course this is more suited to the Soteriology board.
 
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Assyrian

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ivebeenshown said:
Strong's Hebrew Dictionary: 2342. chuwl

Formed (2342) the crooked serpent

Same word here in Job 15:7...

7Art thou the first man that was born? or wast thou made (2342) before the hills?
Click to expand...
The Hebrew can mean writhe or make writhe or give birth as we see with Job were you brought forth before the hills? Are you saying God gave birth to the serpent?

It is hard to deal with topics like predestination, especially God predestining sin, without dealing with the question of God's justification in doing this, and it was a point you seem to have brought up in your post, "Nothing God can do would make him less than perfectly righteous, and God can do absolutely anything. "

Of course this is more suited to the Soteriology board.
Click to expand...
Probably
 
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juvenissun

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This problem is, in fact, deeper than deceiving or not deceiving. God gives human free will to choose. That is the root problem.

God makes skeletons similar to one another and every human beings can see the similarity. Some choose to believe in evolution. Some choose not to believe.

Even God is trying to "deceive", as some people would think, God probably does that with a purpose. Just like God gives human free will and that ended up making the majority of people go to hell. Is the free will another, perhaps a more serious, deception given by God?

No matter how deceiving His creation appears to us, we can NOT accuse that God tries to deceive. That is the base line.
 
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gluadys

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juvenissun said:
No matter how deceiving His creation appears to us, we can NOT accuse that God tries to deceive. That is the base line.
Click to expand...

I agree. That is one of the reasons I accept evolution. That way I do not have a creation that appears deceiving and I do not have a God who appears to deceive.

Your problem is having to deal with a creation that appears deceiving and trying to reconcile that with a God who does not deceive.
 
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laconicstudent

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quite so.
 
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gluadys

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shernren said:
But aren't there "deceptive" miracles in the Bible?

Such as when the water appeared like blood to the Moabites in 2 Kings 3, and when the Syrians heard the sounds of war and fled their camp in 2 Kings 7.
Click to expand...

Tactics of war. God fights on behalf of Israel. We have a similar situation in 1 Kings 22 where God entices Ahab to his death in battle by sending a lying spirit to his prophets. But Micaiah, God's prophet, speaks the truth.

In Romans, Paul speaks of God "giving up" those who exchanged the truth of God for a lie. I expect if we look at all the passages where God is depicted as deceiving it is in relation to those who are already acting against him and his people.

I don't think we can compare that to the whole of creation which is intended to display God's power and divinity to all, believer and non-believer alike. In fact, in Romans, it is precisely the pagans rejection of the truths revealed in creation that condemns them.
 
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juvenissun

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You are right.

But it is much easier to understand why would God want to do that, rather than to convince myself that evolution is true. And I do can see very well that why is evolution only "appears" to be true.
 
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juvenissun

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shernren said:
But aren't there "deceptive" miracles in the Bible?

Such as when the water appeared like blood to the Moabites in 2 Kings 3, and when the Syrians heard the sounds of war and fled their camp in 2 Kings 7.
Click to expand...

Side comment:

The red shade of water either in the Dead Sea area or in the southern Jordan River area as seen from the side of Jordan is full explainable by the natural setting of sun, rocks and water in that area. However, it would still take a miracle for Moabite army to mistake it as bloody water. The nature of the miracle is the need to have necessary human and natural conditions (at least five or more) taken place all together at the right moment, which could only appear in a 10-minute time window in the morning.
 
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