Denying all evidence

[Assyrian]

Sounds good to me too.

 

[Papias]

Though Greg claims to be able to make a nested hierarchy of cars, it seems from his responses that he’s more interested in denying that a nested hierarchy of anything can be made, focusing on claiming that superficial features can be called similar, and thus violating a hierarchy.

Maybe it would be useful to show him what a real nested hierarchy is. I can start on a rough draft of one, and with comments (especially from real biologists), we can end up with something that both Greg and lurkers can use to understand what a nested hierarchy is. Note that for each nest below, all of the attributes of each nest are present in those within the nest, but not those outside the nest. I’ve added numbers so as to make it clear when these are in the same nest. A Venn diagram is the best way to do this – if anyone knows how and wants to make an image and put it up, that would help.

Biggest Nest:

1 Is cellular (made of a cell or cells)
2 Has cells with a nucleus & mitochondria
3 Is made up of many cells, not just one
4a contains chloroplasts, lacks muscle and nerve tissue.
4b lacks chloroplasts, has muscle and nerve tissues
4a1 can reproduce by spores
4a2 can reproduce by seed
4a2a has one seed leaf
4a2b has two seed leaves
4a2a1 produces aloe burn gel
(also within 4) :
5 lacks spinal cord
5a has stinging tentacles
5b lacks stinging tentacles
6a has spinal cord and a post-anal tail at some point in life
6b has ventral nerve cord
7 has hinged single jaw
8a has feathers
8a1 has one fovea
8a2 has two foveas
8b has true (schuted) hair at some point in life
8b1 has non-placental birth
8b2 has placental birth
8b2a has hooves
8b2b has large, fast growing incisors
8b2c has GULOP loss at certain genomic location
8b2c1 has tail as adult
8b2c2 wears clothes

(smallest nests)

Now I know we could make a much more detailed nested hierarchy, with many more levels and dozens more features, and it would still be fully nested. However, this is a start – I count around 15-20 features here. Since Greg has said he can make a nested hierarchy of cars, it should be easy for him to make a nested hierarchy of car with just a dozen features (that aren’t names).

Papias

P.S. That is, of course, in addition to Mallon's points (because they still stand and haven't been seriously addressed), as well as my lettered list of questions.

 

[shernren]

4a2a has one seed leaf
4a2b has two seed leaves

Hey, what happened to monocotyledon and dicotyledon?

Those sound way cooler.

 

[gluadys]

Here is another example of the nested hierarchy focusing particularly on the lineage leading to humans:

Taxonomy

 

[SkyWriting]

By who's interpretation that leads to your conclusion that the Bible actually is talking about a flat earth?

Since it is impossible for ancient humans and modern humans to reach a consensus about the shape of the earth, what do you expect the Bible to describe it?

Exactly.
I would expect the most practical universal descriptions. Which is what I find. The earth is depicted as having 4 corners in a large number of passages. Every map in my house is flat with 4 corners as well.
And my wife is a school teacher. Last time I was there they
had one globe in the library. And 100's more flat maps.

 

[SkyWriting]

Now I know we could make a much more detailed nested hierarchy,...

And this model makes what predictions?
I'd like to test some.

 

[SkyWriting]

Now for years I've wondered if this is intentional, and that these creationists could think and write clearly if they wanted to, or if, on the other hand, it is due to a scrambling of the brain itself, and clear thinking is no longer possible. Ironically, when I've asked this of creationists, the answer has been unintelligible gibberish, leaving me still wondering.

It has to due with worldview. When operating under different assumptions, the other party seems to be talking gibberish. Especially when not bringing those assumptions out front. It's a universal problem not limited to any particular group. Like when you get a new well-trained weather man. It can be real hard to understand what they are saying sometimes.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Now for years I've wondered if this is intentional, and that these creationists could think and write clearly if they wanted to, or if, on the other hand, it is due to a scrambling of the brain itself, and clear thinking is no longer possible. Ironically, when I've asked this of creationists, the answer has been unintelligible gibberish, leaving me still wondering.

I believe that our omnipotent LORD could have created a world six thousand years ago and given the inspiration to write a genealogy dating back to the first human, Adam (which is evident in the book of Luke, the third chapter) all while making the earth appear to be older than it really is.

Due to the almighty nature of our God this is entirely possible.

 

[pgp_protector]

I believe that our omnipotent LORD could have created a world six thousand years ago and given the inspiration to write a genealogy dating back to the first human, Adam (which is evident in the book of Luke, the third chapter) all while making the earth appear to be older than it really is.

Due to the almighty nature of our God this is entirely possible.
[/COLOR]

So God made it 6K years ago and made it look old why???

 

[Papias]

Skywriting wrote:

And this model makes what predictions?
I'd like to test some.

Hey, sounds like a good idea! Testing the predictions of nested hierarchies is a great way to learn biology, and I personally found it a lot easier way to memorize classifications than trying to memorize by traditional methods like reading lists and such.

Even the greatly simplified nested hierarcy I made makes literally thousands of predictions, which you can test yourself.

To generate predictions, take any species in a nest, and predict that it will have the properties of the higher nests.

For instance, a devout praying mantis is in nest 6b. So, before you dissect a praying mantis, predict that it will:

NOT have stinging tentacles
NOT produce aloe burn gel
WILL be made of many cells
WILL have nucleated cells
WILL be made of cells
NOT have true (schuted) hair at some point in life
NOT have placental birth
NOT have hooves
NOT have large, fast growing incisors
NOT have GULOP loss at certain genomic location
NOT wears clothes

Now, go and dissect a praying mantis, and test them. It works pretty well, and as you can see from how this was done, it's easy to make many, many more predictions and to test them.

Papias

 

[ivebeenshown]

So God made it 6K years ago and made it look old why???

The same reason Adam lived to be 930 years old. Because he can!

 

[laconicstudent]

The same reason Adam lived to be 930 years old. Because he can!

Yeah, God loves to deceive people for no reason. Good deduction, Watson.

 

[gluadys]

I believe that our omnipotent LORD could have created a world six thousand years ago and given the inspiration to write a genealogy dating back to the first human, Adam (which is evident in the book of Luke, the third chapter) all while making the earth appear to be older than it really is.

Due to the almighty nature of our God this is entirely possible.
[/COLOR]

I disagree. It is possible for a god who is omnipotent and also deceitful i.e. for a trickster god.

It is not possible for a god who is omnipotent and also truthful.

For some reason people seem to forget that God's nature includes more than omnipotence. It also includes wisdom, love, holiness, truth, compassion, foresight and so on. God acts in accordance with all aspects of his nature, not just one.


So while God's omnipotence means he can produce a young world that looks old, God's nature forbids him to do so.

 

[juvenissun]

I disagree. It is possible for a god who is omnipotent and also deceitful i.e. for a trickster god.

It is not possible for a god who is omnipotent and also truthful.

For some reason people seem to forget that God's nature includes more than omnipotence. It also includes wisdom, love, holiness, truth, compassion, foresight and so on. God acts in accordance with all aspects of his nature, not just one.


So while God's omnipotence means he can produce a young world that looks old, God's nature forbids him to do so.

Chinese made many poor versions of iPhone clone for domestic sell. WE think that they tried to cheat, but they really don't think so. What they did is completely legal.

Even God makes evolution look really possible, it is WE who accuse God deceiving.

 

[ivebeenshown]

I disagree. It is possible for a god who is omnipotent and also deceitful i.e. for a trickster god.

It is not possible for a god who is omnipotent and also truthful.

For some reason people seem to forget that God's nature includes more than omnipotence. It also includes wisdom, love, holiness, truth, compassion, foresight and so on. God acts in accordance with all aspects of his nature, not just one.

So while God's omnipotence means he can produce a young world that looks old, God's nature forbids him to do so.

God created the crooked serpent Satan. Nothing God can do would make him less than perfectly righteous, and God can do absolutely anything.

 

[Assyrian]

God created the crooked serpent Satan. Nothing God can do would make him less than perfectly righteous, and God can do absolutely anything.

Gen 18:25 Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?"

 

[laconicstudent]

God created the crooked serpent Satan. Nothing God can do would make him less than perfectly righteous, and God can do absolutely anything.

Gen 18:25 Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?"

Well, that was pwnage.

 

[gluadys]

Even God makes evolution look really possible, it is WE who accuse God deceiving.

And rightfully so, if the reality is that everything looks evolved but nothing was. Or if everything looked mature on first appearing but was not.

So YE creationists do accuse God of deceiving.

That is why the majority of the church rejected the Omphalos argument two centuries ago.

"creation" means God made a real world, not an illusion. "creation" means that evidence is evidence of reality.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Gen 18:25 Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?"

Well, that was pwnage.

I have acknowledged that nothing the LORD can do would make him unjust, and the LORD can do anything.

Job 26:13
By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

 

[shernren]

I have acknowledged that nothing the LORD can do would make him unjust, and the LORD can do anything.

Job 26:13
By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

That's a fairly different translation from:

​​​​​​​​By his wind the heavens were made fair;
his hand pierced the fleeing serpent.
(Job 26:13, ESV)