Deny self.

[Phil W]

Flesh has no power other than what we give it. But the fact of the matter is ... unless they die very quickly, pretty much everyone goes on to sin after they are converted.

Is that really a conversion?
What did they convert from and to?

Anyone who claims otherwise generally has too limited an understanding of what "sin" is. It is not only murder and adultery and other gross sins (which of course should not be found among Christians and might even be avoided by moral non-Christians. But sin is any way in which we fall short of the perfection that is Christ.

"All unrighteousness is sin." (1 John 5:17)
Thanks be to God for giving us everything we require to maintain our perfection in Christ.

We ought to move closer and closer to that perfection, becoming more Christlike. But the fact is, we do not "arrive" instantly upon conversion. There will be that flash of irritation which points to a root of pride (pride is one of the hardest to eradicate), or that moment our eye lingered with desire on a person (lust and adultery in the mind) or on an object (covetousness), or a failure to do what is perfectly loving for someone else instead doing something we want to do (self-centeredness) or any one of many other kinds of sins our own weaknesses predispose us to. And there will probably be MANY such sins for years to come, even if we properly struggle against the flesh.

Well wait a second...If we have been reborn of Godly seed, how can we be anything less than perfect?
We will continue to grow in grace and knowledge, but even the newest "convert" is perfect.
Or maybe it depends on your definition of conversion.
For me, I was converted from a servant of sin to a servant of God.

There are many ways to discipline the flesh and strengthen the spirit. Fasting, especially, and prayer, reading Scripture, keeping discipline in any number of ways, and so on. We are told to continually crucify the flesh, and given many tools to do so.

Can you show a scripture that says we are to continually crucify the flesh?
I do see "keep the flesh dead", in Rom 8:13 and Col 3:5.

 

[Phil W]

One of the tools is to ‘reckon yourself dead to sin and alive to God’ because that is truly how the Father sees us in Christ. Every time that conscience reveals sin in our minds is an opportunity to take it to our Mediator. Every time we take it to Him He is faithful to forgive and we are once again as white as snow. Seventy times seven He forgives those sins, according to human understanding, so no matter how long it takes He is faithful as we are faithful. Soon it’ll start to become apparent that sins are disappearing from our lives because He has taken them from us as we have asked. We’ll notice that the thought comes but action doesn’t follow, and before we know it (literally) the thoughts of sin disappear too. But many are sins yet even so much time with the Lord has it’s way.
So far that just covered the basics of going to Him in prayer. There are so many other benefits to be derived from a closer walk with Him.

If we are to "reckon ourselves dead", why don't some realize we ARE dead to sin?
It isn't a game, it is reality.

 

[sunshineforJesus]

To deny yourself means to lay aside your fleshly desires and go after God with all your heart.

 

[~Zao~]

If we are to "reckon ourselves dead", why don't some realize we ARE dead to sin?
It isn't a game, it is reality.

Reckoning yourself dead to sin is just Paul’s way of saying accept the imputation provided by Christ and accepted by the Father. Hebrews 10:4, Hebrews 9:14, 1 Corinthians 1:30 is how the transaction is viewed. That which Christ imputes into His believers Colossians 2:9-10. It’s thru faith that His righteousness is accounted (which is what reckon means) to us and that which the Father has accepted and placed into our account. It’s how we are viewed.

Psalms 32:1–2
Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
Blessed is the man against whom the LORD counts no iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no deceit.

ETA:
The reasoning is that as often as the 'old self' arises we are to again to reckon it dead and look to Christ thereby 'putting on' the new self’

Romans 13:12
The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.
14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.
Galatians 5:17
For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.
Romans 13:14
But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh to fulfill its lusts.

 

[Phil W]

Reckoning yourself dead to sin is just Paul’s way of saying accept the imputation provided by Christ and accepted by the Father. Hebrews 10:4, Hebrews 9:14, 1 Corinthians 1:30 is how the transaction is viewed. That which Christ imputes into His believers Colossians 2:9-10. It’s thru faith that His righteousness is accounted (which is what reckon means) to us and that which the Father has accepted and placed into our account. It’s how we are viewed.

Too many code -words for me.
If we are dead, crucified with Christ, (Rom 6:3-6), our old self is gone...with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
No reason to serve sin anymore, ever.

Psalms 32:1–2
Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
Blessed is the man against whom the LORD counts no iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no deceit.

Amen!
God sees no sin in those who don't serve sin.

 

[Virious]

Many Christians remain carnal, but God has not only called us to grow, but He has provided all of the power and the conditions necessary for growth.

But many sadly remain babes in Christ, whereas they should have gone on to 'perfection, attaining unto the full grown man'.

Sometimes the blame lies with preaching only a partial gospel, which makes salvation to consist solely of the hope of heaven and the pardon of forgiveness. If holiness is preached, it is not preached from the perspective that it is Christ who is our Sanctification and who gives the ability to walk in holiness, and that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is necessary and that he must not be grieved.

Sometimes if these things are taught, it is the Christian who is unwilling to deny self so that the flesh can be crucified. God can only work in those who are willing to give themselves up to Him totally.

Christians will generally give up MOST of themselves but not entirely. The remaining sin will show that they are yet carnal. With the Corinthians, the sin remaining was their jealousy and strife. When Christians are not willing to give up the sin of selfishness and temper, wanting to retain the liberty of giving in to and excusing the loosing of control of their feelings and loosing control of the tongue with words pouring forth pronouncing their own judgements and speaking words that are not perfect in love-then they remain carnal.



This grieves the Holy Spirit, and He will depart leaving behind a conscience that will not witness that we are pleasing to God. God is love so let us put on love which is the 'bond of perfectness'.



The Corinthians were proud of their wisdom, but as the Rev. Andrew Murray says in 'The Spirit of Christ'-"There was nothing in His teaching that they would not have been able to comprehend with the understanding. But the real spiritual entering into the truth in power, so as to possess it and be possessed by it, so as to have not only the thought but the very thing the words speak of, this only the Holy Spirit can give. And He gives it to the spiritually minded man. The teaching and leading of the Holy Spirit is given to be obedient and is preceded by the dominion of the Spirit in mortifying the deeds of the body (Rom8v13-14)

Spiritual knowledge is not deep thought but living contact entering into and being united to the truth as it is in Jesus, as a spiritual reality. The Spirit teaches, combining spiritual things with spiritual. Into a spiritual mind He works spiritual truth. It is not even the earnest desire to know the truth that fits a man for the Spirits teaching; it is a life, yielded to Him in waiting dependence and full obedience that receives the spiritual wisdom and understanding.

As long as we are giving way to the flesh we are incapable of receiving spiritual insight into truth. We may 'know all mysteries and have all knowledge' without love, the love which the Spirit works in the inner life, it is only a 'knowledge that puffeth up, it profiteth nothing"

The carnal life makes the knowledge carnal"

End of Quote

And this knowledge, again being held in the 'fleshy mind' strengthens the 'religion of the flesh' of self effort and confidence and trust in self. The truth so received has no power to make us free and to renew our minds into the mind of Christ.

This is the reason that there is so much Bible knowledge but no spiritual result in a life of holiness.

EVERY CHRISTIAN IS CALLED TO BE A SPIRITUAL MAN.

And why does this not happen in the majority of cases? It is because God gives man the choice of refusing or co-operating with Him.

"As sure as the natural man can become regenerate man, so can a regenerate man who is still carnal, become spiritual" A. Murray.

It is the Holy Spirit alone who makes the man spiritual, and He does it when the whole man, spirit soul and body is yielded up to Him in willing obedience to be under His control, to be moved and guided only by Him and no more by our own thoughts and desires. Ant the first step is by faith.

As we are filled by faith in what HE CAN DO, WE THEN MUST GIVE UP ALL WORKS OF THE FLESH in the sphere of religion. All confidence in the flesh all self effort and self struggling, all thoughts that we can succeed if we only try harder must be rooted out and the soul brought into the captivity and subjection of Jesus Christ.

By walking in obedience and by faith we can have confidence that the Holy Spirit will do the work in us and we will trust that we will, through Him have the ability and strength needed to walk in the Spirit, as we yield ourselves up to His Mighty working in us so that ALL we do will be pleasing in the sight of God allowing us to dwell in the house of the Lord forever.

"Believe! Rise from the disciple stage which savoureth not the things that be of God, to the spiritual Pentecostal condition" Saphir.

"The lesson that true spiritual insight into God's Word depends upon a spiritual life is one of great solemnity for all ministers and teachers of the Word" A Murray.

Thank you.

 

[Virious]

or mostly achieved

Amen

 

[timothyu]

God sees no sin in those who don't serve sin.

Then what of the religious right and left?

 

[Lost4words]

So very difficult regarding our weak sinful flesh. Sometimes, it may take a lifetime of struggle, of carrying that cross to even touch at a pure nature.

Not everyone is equal. Some will succeed easily while others may keep on suffering these sins right up to death. God knows we are weak. He is mercy and love. He can see our efforts. He can see our deep love for Him, even through the hundreds of times we fall.

Getting right back up and going straight to Jesus is the most important thing. To acknowledge our failings, our weakneses, our sins. Asking for absolution. Trying our utmost not to sin these fleshly sins again. 77 x 7 is only a fraction of the forgiveness of God.

We cant all be perfect. Be we can all persevere through difficult, sinful times though. Heading to the loving arms of God, again and again.

 

[Phil W]

Then what of the religious right and left?

Without knowing a person, it is hard to tell.
I leave that sort of judgement to God.
Titles are only titles.

 

[Phil W]

So very difficult regarding our weak sinful flesh. Sometimes, it may take a lifetime of struggle, of carrying that cross to even touch at a pure nature.

I guess that is why God provided the means of our death, burial, and resurrection with Christ.
Baptism. (Rom 6:3-7)
It is written..."Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; (death), and some men they follow after." (1 Tim 5:24)
I suffered my judgement when I was crucified with Christ.
And I was raised with Christ to walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.

 

[timothyu]

Without knowing a person, it is hard to tell.
I leave that sort of judgement to God.
Titles are only titles.

Their fruits and especially the fruits of those they support, should be a tell should it not?

 

[Phil W]

Their fruits and especially the fruits of those they support, should be a tell should it not?

I agree, but I'm not familiar with "left" or "right".
Which espouses...and is, holy?

 

[timothyu]

I agree, but I'm not familiar with "left" or "right".
Which espouses...and is, holy?

If you are referring to the religious right and left I mentioned then neither represent God. They are of the governance of man, not the governance of God.

 

[Phil W]

If you are referring to the religious right and left I mentioned then neither represent God. They are of the governance of man, not the governance of God.

I guess I am neither.
I can't fit a large group on this narrow path.

 

[timothyu]

I can't fit a large group on this narrow path.

 

[Scott Husted]

Spiritual maturity is an interesting su

Many Christians remain carnal, but God has not only called us to grow, but He has provided all of the power and the conditions necessary for growth.

But many sadly remain babes in Christ, whereas they should have gone on to 'perfection, attaining unto the full grown man'.

Sometimes the blame lies with preaching only a partial gospel, which makes salvation to consist solely of the hope of heaven and the pardon of forgiveness. If holiness is preached, it is not preached from the perspective that it is Christ who is our Sanctification and who gives the ability to walk in holiness, and that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is necessary and that he must not be grieved.

Sometimes if these things are taught, it is the Christian who is unwilling to deny self so that the flesh can be crucified. God can only work in those who are willing to give themselves up to Him totally.

Christians will generally give up MOST of themselves but not entirely. The remaining sin will show that they are yet carnal. With the Corinthians, the sin remaining was their jealousy and strife. When Christians are not willing to give up the sin of selfishness and temper, wanting to retain the liberty of giving in to and excusing the loosing of control of their feelings and loosing control of the tongue with words pouring forth pronouncing their own judgements and speaking words that are not perfect in love-then they remain carnal.



This grieves the Holy Spirit, and He will depart leaving behind a conscience that will not witness that we are pleasing to God. God is love so let us put on love which is the 'bond of perfectness'.



The Corinthians were proud of their wisdom, but as the Rev. Andrew Murray says in 'The Spirit of Christ'-"There was nothing in His teaching that they would not have been able to comprehend with the understanding. But the real spiritual entering into the truth in power, so as to possess it and be possessed by it, so as to have not only the thought but the very thing the words speak of, this only the Holy Spirit can give. And He gives it to the spiritually minded man. The teaching and leading of the Holy Spirit is given to be obedient and is preceded by the dominion of the Spirit in mortifying the deeds of the body (Rom8v13-14)

Spiritual knowledge is not deep thought but living contact entering into and being united to the truth as it is in Jesus, as a spiritual reality. The Spirit teaches, combining spiritual things with spiritual. Into a spiritual mind He works spiritual truth. It is not even the earnest desire to know the truth that fits a man for the Spirits teaching; it is a life, yielded to Him in waiting dependence and full obedience that receives the spiritual wisdom and understanding.

As long as we are giving way to the flesh we are incapable of receiving spiritual insight into truth. We may 'know all mysteries and have all knowledge' without love, the love which the Spirit works in the inner life, it is only a 'knowledge that puffeth up, it profiteth nothing"

The carnal life makes the knowledge carnal"

End of Quote

And this knowledge, again being held in the 'fleshy mind' strengthens the 'religion of the flesh' of self effort and confidence and trust in self. The truth so received has no power to make us free and to renew our minds into the mind of Christ.

This is the reason that there is so much Bible knowledge but no spiritual result in a life of holiness.

EVERY CHRISTIAN IS CALLED TO BE A SPIRITUAL MAN.

And why does this not happen in the majority of cases? It is because God gives man the choice of refusing or co-operating with Him.

"As sure as the natural man can become regenerate man, so can a regenerate man who is still carnal, become spiritual" A. Murray.

It is the Holy Spirit alone who makes the man spiritual, and He does it when the whole man, spirit soul and body is yielded up to Him in willing obedience to be under His control, to be moved and guided only by Him and no more by our own thoughts and desires. Ant the first step is by faith.

As we are filled by faith in what HE CAN DO, WE THEN MUST GIVE UP ALL WORKS OF THE FLESH in the sphere of religion. All confidence in the flesh all self effort and self struggling, all thoughts that we can succeed if we only try harder must be rooted out and the soul brought into the captivity and subjection of Jesus Christ.

By walking in obedience and by faith we can have confidence that the Holy Spirit will do the work in us and we will trust that we will, through Him have the ability and strength needed to walk in the Spirit, as we yield ourselves up to His Mighty working in us so that ALL we do will be pleasing in the sight of God allowing us to dwell in the house of the Lord forever.

"Believe! Rise from the disciple stage which savoureth not the things that be of God, to the spiritual Pentecostal condition" Saphir.

"The lesson that true spiritual insight into God's Word depends upon a spiritual life is one of great solemnity for all ministers and teachers of the Word" A Murray.

Spiritual maturity is an interesting subject. If we listen to Paul and adhere to teachers outside of ourselves it in some ways reflects on the words of Elisha describing his relationship with God as the God of Elijah, or where Jacob said that the Lord would be his God if he brings him back to his father's house.

It would seem the very things that Paul referenced as something that brings one to this are the very things that prevent one from arriving, though God uses all things for the good ...

 

[Phil W]

Then what of the religious right and left?

Stay with God in the middle. and leave the posers to the day of judgement.