Denominations that teach that salvation is exclusive to them

[ozso]

Church teaching:

"The members of the Church are those who have validly received the Sacrament of Baptism and who are not separated from the unity of the confession of the Faith, and from the unity of the lawful communion of the Church."

That's rather different than the direct cut and dry statement of "no salvation outside the Catholic Church" which you said the Catholic Church teaches.

 

[concretecamper]

That's rather different than the direct cut and dry statement of "no salvation outside the Catholic Church" which you said the Catholic Church teaches.

No it is not. A valid Baptism makes one part of His Body, which is His One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church (Catholic Church). Now whether one then separates from Her after Baptism is the question.

 

[Valletta]

That's rather different than the direct cut and dry statement of "no salvation outside the Catholic Church" which you said the Catholic Church teaches.

If you are really interested there is an extensive narrative in the Catholic Catechism: Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3

 

[FaithT]

I still run into Catholics who say theirs is the one true Church

They say that all the time on the message boards.

 

[concretecamper]

They say that all the time on the message boards.

I'm glad to see there are many Catholics not afraid to proclaim the truth.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I'm glad for Vatican II, in part because reclassifying me from "heretic" to "separated brethren" is quite an upgrade.

Those that began your denomination were heretics. You have arrived here through no fault of your own. If you are not Catholic, you have learned a little. We invite you to the fullness of the faith

Saying that a healthy Christian outlook is to say "I have searched and the group I am in is teaching what I find the Bible to teach" is a healthy POV Then to stay on that road of looking into what the Bible says and checking that things still match up with the group you are in (or else finding they do not) is the right path and that is what Timothy found out according to the Apostle Paul.

Timothy accepted the light he had - and when he got more light - he made the necessary change.

But that just shows why we can't claim that someone with a flaw in their theology is not saved - Paul said Timothy was saved as a child

The "nobody saved but us" led the Jews down a very bad road and in the dark ages it lead to things like "the doctrine of discovery" and the "extermination of heretics" in the LATERAN IV declaration

It sounds to me like you are making the human mind the arbiter of truth. Paraphrase,” I want to find a group that teaches the Bible the way I think it should be taught.”
How is that Christian? We need to be called to repentance. Our thoughts are wrong and we need to be conformed to the mind of Christ. The Bible says that God desires obedience rather than sacrifice. His Church was founded at Pentecost by the Holy Spirt through the Apostles. Many groups competed with them at the time and still do today. How do you know that you have the Apostolic faith?
The Bible is an instrument. You can play it in the apostolic orchestra or you can take a fine piano to a garage band. Your choice

 

[BobRyan]

It sounds to me like you are making the human mind the arbiter of truth.

God sovereignly ordains that humans have free will even though we only have finite knowledge. By definition that means each person will be accountable for their own choices as they are forever encountering truth, error and truth-mixed-with error. We ask the supernatural guidance of God the Holy Spirit to guide us in this life.

You call that role of individual responsibility "arbiter of truth" but you don't have any way of handing your brain over to someone else - so however you choose to label it -- it is the same result.

Paraphrase,” I want to find a group that teaches the Bible the way I think it should be taught.”

Because no one else will be thinking for you in your choices ... which you alone will be held accountable for according to 2 Cor 5:10

"each one of us must stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account"... 2 Cor 5:10
"it is appointed unto man - once to die and then comes the judgment" Heb 9.

There is no way out of it.

How is that Christian?

It is Christian because the Christian Bible tells us that God ordained that we all have to make choices and all are held accountable for those choices.

We need to be called to repentance.

Indeed the Bible calls us to repentance - but we have to "choose" to repent or resist in rebellion. That is just the way it is.

Our thoughts are wrong and we need to be conformed to the mind of Christ.

Which does not happen until we choose Christ, accept the gospel... choose to submit.

"I stand at the door and KNOCK, if anyone OPENS the door - I will come in" Rev 3.

The Bible says that God desires obedience rather than sacrifice.

You won't be "obeying in your sleep" -- to obey you must hear and then choose to act as Paul reminds us in Rom 2:13 "it is not the HEARERS of the LAW that are just before God, but the DOERS of the LAW will be justified"

Matt 7 Jesus speaks of those that hear His words AND then choose to DO what He said as "building their house on a Rock"

His Church was founded at Pentecost by the Holy Spirt through the Apostles.

And continued by every one who hears/reads the Gospel chooses to accept and then passes that on to their children.

Many groups competed with them at the time and still do today.

No doubt - we live in a sea of truth, error, and also truth-mixed with error. We must choose.

How do you know that you have the Apostolic faith?

Because they wrote scripture and told us what correct doctrine is.

"they studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - WERE SO" Acts 17:11

Christ demonstrates that model for us in Mark 7:6-13 -- as He slam hammered the traditions and doctrines of the One True nation church started by God at Sinai - with infallible systems of succession of high priest -- that went wrong over time. so we choose to walk as He walked

The Bible is an instrument. You can play it

You cannot play the Bible - you have to read it and be guided by the Holy Spirit

. 20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. ...26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27 And as for you, the anointing which you received from Him remains in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you remain in Him.

John 16 "The Spirit of Truth will guide you into all truth"

Your choice

That is where it ends up - we have to choose... no one will choose for us.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

God sovereignly ordains that humans have free will even though we only have finite knowledge. By definition that means each person will be accountable for their own choices as they are forever encountering truth, error and truth-mixed-with error. We ask the supernatural guidance of God the Holy Spirit to guide us in this life.

You call that role of individual responsibility "arbiter of truth" but you don't have any way of handing your brain over to someone else - so however you choose to label it -- it is the same result.


Because no one else will be thinking for you in your choices ... which you alone will be held accountable for according to 2 Cor 5:10

"each one of us must stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account"... 2 Cor 5:10
"it is appointed unto man - once to die and then comes the judgment" Heb 9.

There is no way out of it.

It is Christian because the Christian Bible tells us that God ordained that we all have to make choices and all are held accountable for those choices.

Indeed the Bible calls us to repentance - but we have to "choose" to repent or resist in rebellion. That is just the way it is.

Which does not happen until we choose Christ, accept the gospel... choose to submit.

"I stand at the door and KNOCK, if anyone OPENS the door - I will come in" Rev 3.

You won't be "obeying in your sleep" -- to obey you must hear and then choose to act as Paul reminds us in Rom 2:13 "it is not the HEARERS of the LAW that are just before God, but the DOERS of the LAW will be justified"

Matt 7 Jesus speaks of those that hear His words AND then choose to DO what He said as "building their house on a Rock"

And continued by every one who hears/reads the Gospel chooses to accept and then passes that on to their children.

No doubt - we live in a sea of truth, error, and also truth-mixed with error. We must choose.

Because they wrote scripture and told us what correct doctrine is.

"they studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - WERE SO" Acts 17:11

Christ demonstrates that model for us in Mark 7:6-13 -- as He slam hammered the traditions and doctrines of the One True nation church started by God at Sinai - with infallible systems of succession of high priest -- that went wrong over time. so we choose to walk as He walked

You cannot play the Bible - you have to read it and be guided by the Holy Spirit

. 20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. ...26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27 And as for you, the anointing which you received from Him remains in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you remain in Him.

John 16 "The Spirit of Truth will guide you into all truth"


That is where it ends up - we have to choose... no one will choose for us.

You still did not answer the question. How do you know that you are in the truth? So far you have only put forth your own understanding of the Bible as proof, and then want to blame the Holy Spirit if you are wrong, as He is your only other appeal.
There are many spirits other then the Holy Spirit that will attempt to guide men. They give consolation when there should be distress and pride when there should be submission
The promise of leading into all truth and the gates of hell not prevailing was given to the Church, not to individuals.
Arius was as a sola scripturist. He believed he was right and could not be convinced. He said Jesus Christ was not God. He almost deceived the whole empire, but wound up disemboweled in his error, not by human hands. The council of Nicea refuted his teaching
When you preach the Bible, you are playing it like an instrument. You have an interpretation that you want others to follow. How do you known that you are playing the right tune and not in error like Arius? Your eternity depends on it.

 

[BobRyan]

You still did not answer the question. How do you know that you are in the truth?

Read the Bible - believe the Bible. Guided by the Holy Spirit who authored the Bible.

How do you know you are born-again? The witness of the Holy Spirit.

So far you have only put forth your own understanding of the Bible

Indeed - I am not accessing another person's "mind" when I post. I am posting what I understand to be true - as you are also doing.

as proof, and then want to blame the Holy Spirit if you are wrong

Nope this is not a "blame game" - this is the path of sola-scriptura testing that Christ demonstrated in Mark 7:6-13. And the told us to follow His example.

The method fully approved in Act 17:11 - sola scriptura testing of all doctrine.

There are many spirits other then the Holy Spirit that will attempt to guide men.

Hence the "Sola scriptura testing" detail above.

The promise of leading into all truth and the gates of hell not prevailing was given to the Church, not to individuals.

Not true as we see in 1 John 2

19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be evident that they all are not of us.​

Individuals choosing -- in the example above, some choose to remain and others to leave.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know.​

Individuals have an anointing from the H.S just as 1 Cor 12 points to this being an individual work. So also does Rom 8:16 show it.

21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar except the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ?​

Individuals taking one path - vs individuals taking another path in the example above

This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24 As for you, see that what you heard from the beginning remains in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.​

Again in the case above individuals choosing - making choices.. no one is 'choosing for them'.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27 And as for you, the anointing which you received from Him remains in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you remain in Him.​

In the above case individuals trying to deceive other individuals in the church - and yet the Holy Spirit is with each individual who accepts Him and agrees to accept His guidance.

Arius was as a sola scripturist.

Fine - so was Paul and Luke as we see in Acts 17:11 whee they are approved for using that method
So was Christ in Mark 7:6-13

He believed he was right

Same was true of Christ, of Paul, of John in 1 John 2. That did not make them "Wrong"

When you preach the Bible, you are playing it like an instrument

Not true.

. You have an interpretation that you want others to follow.

So do you

How do you known that you are playing the right tune and not in error like Arius? Your eternity depends on it.

Agree with that part - your eternity depends on whether you submit to scripture, to the Word of God - or else setup your own "experience" as the judge of scripture ignoring it as it suits you. It is an important detail to consider.

 

[RileyG]

That's rather different than the direct cut and dry statement of "no salvation outside the Catholic Church" which you said the Catholic Church teaches.

The Church does not teach those who are not Catholic are automatically damned. That's heresy.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The Church does not teach those who are not Catholic are automatically damned. That's heresy.

That's really wonderful. So, will I, as a Protestant Christian, spend some time in Purgatory after I die, or will I enter heaven directly because Purgatory does not exist?

 

[FaithT]

That's really wonderful. So, will I, as a Protestant Christian, spend some time in Purgatory after I die, or will I enter heaven directly because Purgatory does not exist?

And just to add something……I’m a former Catholic, currently Lutheran LCMS. If Purgatory exists, do non Catholics go there?

 

[JSRG]

That's rather different than the direct cut and dry statement of "no salvation outside the Catholic Church" which you said the Catholic Church teaches.

To try to clear up some confusion in this topic, let's just note what the Catechism of the Catholic Church explicitly says on the subject (footnotes removed):

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."

Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3

As there was discussion of pre- and post-Vatican II, here is a quote from the Catechism of Pius X (pre-Vatican II) which says essentially the same thing:

27 Q. Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church?
A. No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.

28 Q. How, then, were the Patriarchs of old, the Prophets, and the other just men of the Old Testament, saved?
A. The just of the Old Testament were saved in virtue of the faith they had in Christ to come, by means of which they spiritually belonged to the Church.

29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation

Source: Catechism of St. Pius X | EWTN

 

[Valletta]

That's really wonderful. So, will I, as a Protestant Christian, spend some time in Purgatory after I die, or will I enter heaven directly because Purgatory does not exist?

The purification spoken of in the Bible is what Catholics call purgatory. Catholics believe the Bible is the Word of God, so believe you me that purification exists although we know almost nothing about it.

 

[FaithT]

The purification spoken of in the Bible is what Catholics call purgatory. Catholics believe the Bible is the Word of God, so believe you me that purification exists although we know almost nothing about it.

But will A Protestant go to Purgatory to be purified? IOW, do Protestants go to heaven?

 

[RileyG]

That's really wonderful. So, will I, as a Protestant Christian, spend some time in Purgatory after I die, or will I enter heaven directly because Purgatory does not exist?

I highly suggest you research prayers for the dead in the early church. This is an entirely different topic.

All Christians from the earliest days of Christianity prayed for the dead, up until the Protestant reformation.

 

[RileyG]

But will A Protestant go to Purgatory to be purified? IOW, do Protestants go to heaven?

Yes

 

[concretecamper]

The Church teaches, all validly Baptized people who die in a state of Grace attain Heaven. As Scripture and the Church both teach, we may need to be purified.

 

[ozso]

The Church teaches, all validly Baptized people who die in a state of Grace attain Heaven. As Scripture and the Church both teach, we may need to be purified.

What qualifies as a valid baptism?

 

[RileyG]

What qualifies as a valid baptism?

Trinitarian formula.