Demystifying the Last Book

[Linet Kihonge]

I hate how people who say that Rev. is full of myths, symbolism or apocalypticism. Sadly, it doesn't take a genius to understand that some of the biblical proofs of life at its brink of extinction is there. What makes it special is that no one in the 1st century was that genius to explain the course of events like the book did.

1. The Beasts and the Prostitute

These are not creatures but a political evolution that would be so bad that I think Hitler was polite.

2. The collapsing economies

The existing leaders will take advantage of it and create a universal transaction system. I think it would be introduced like the way banks introduced credit cards and how companies introduced online paying systems like Paypal.

3. The life on earth

The fact that the Ozone layer gets compromised every other day it would only mean, less plants, less oxygen and more exposure to UV Radiation. The red rivers are a sign of low oxygen. According to the book the first things that would to be destroyed would be the plant life (an aha moment) ... the first things to die will be plants due to low oxygen levels. Then the breaking out of sores because of things like skin cancer and radiation (the depletion of Ozone means more exposure to sun's radiation).

The other thing that would accelerate extinction of all life would be one hell of a meteor shower and from the look of things something like that could happen.

However, there's nothing really scary about the book we just have a thing of reading too much into everything. I still don't understand its symbolism because literally... everything is evolving towards that direction. We just need a nasty nation to declare war (if that's what will accelerate everything) and we shall sing to the stars.

Anyway, you can still sing your song? "I have evidence it's metaphoric/symbolic/apocalyptic..." Looking forward!!!

 

[SkyWriting]

I hate how people who say that Rev. is full of myths, symbolism or apocalypticism. Sadly, it doesn't take a genius to understand that some of the biblical proofs of life at its brink of extinction is there. What makes it special is that no one in the 1st century was that genius to explain the course of events like the book did.

1. The Beasts and the Prostitute

These are not creatures but a political evolution that would be so bad that I think Hitler was polite.

2. The collapsing economies

The existing leaders will take advantage of it and create a universal transaction system. I think it would be introduced like the way banks introduced credit cards and how companies introduced online paying systems like Paypal.

3. The life on earth

The fact that the Ozone layer gets compromised every other day it would only mean, less plants, less oxygen and more exposure to UV Radiation. The red rivers are a sign of low oxygen. According to the book the first things that would to be destroyed would be the plant life (an aha moment) ... the first things to die will be plants due to low oxygen levels. Then the breaking out of sores because of things like skin cancer and radiation (the depletion of Ozone means more exposure to sun's radiation).

The other thing that would accelerate extinction of all life would be one hell of a meteor shower and from the look of things something like that could happen.

However, there's nothing really scary about the book we just have a thing of reading too much into everything. I still don't understand its symbolism because literally... everything is evolving towards that direction. We just need a nasty nation to declare war (if that's what will accelerate everything) and we shall sing to the stars.

Anyway, you can still sing your song? "I have evidence it's metaphoric/symbolic/apocalyptic..." Looking forward!!!

And excellent read on this is:

The Revelation Record: A Scientific and Devotional Commentary

 

[DennisTate]

I thought that the explanation given for the Beast and anti-Christ by near death experiencer Dannion Brinkley was logical.

It seems to have happened in another time line though.... which would fit with Multiverse Theory.

http://www.qsl.net/w5www/brinkley.html

The 11th box was gone & I was into the 12th box. Its visions addressed an important event in the distant future, the decade of the 90's (remember, this was 1975), when many of the great changes would take place. In this box, I watched as a biological engineer from the Middle East found a way to alter DNA & create a biological virus that would be used in the manufacture of computer chips. This discovery allowed for huge strides in science & technology. Japan, China, & other countries of the Pacific Rim experienced boom times as a result of this discovery & became powers of incredible magnitude. Computer chips produced from this process found their way into virtually every form of technology, from cars & airplanes to vacuum cleaners & blenders.

Before the turn of the century, this man was among the richest in the world, so rich that he had a stranglehold on the world economy. Still the world welcomed him, since the computer chips he had designed somehow put the world on an even keel. Gradually, he succumbed to his own power. He began to think of himself as a deity & insisted on greater control of the world. With that extra control, he began to rule the world.

His method of rule was unique. Everyone in the world was mandated by law to have one of his computer chips inserted underneath his or her skin. This chip contained all of an individual's personal information. If a government agency wanted to know something, all it had to do was scan your chip with a special device. By doing so, it could discover everything about you, from where you worked & lived to your medical records & even what kind of illnesses you might get in the future.

There was an even more sinister side to this chip. A person's lifetime could be limited by programming this chip to dissolve & kill him with the viral substance it was made from. Lifetimes were controlled like this to avoid the cost that growing old places on the government. It was also used as a means of eliminating people with chronic illnesses that put a drain on the medical system. People who refused to have chips implanted in their bodies roamed as outcasts. They could not be employed & were denied government services.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

I thought that the explanation given for the Beast and anti-Christ by near death experiencer Dannion Brinkley was logical.

It seems to have happened in another time line though.... which would fit with Multiverse Theory.

http://www.qsl.net/w5www/brinkley.html

Makes sense :/

 

[eclipsenow]

I hate how people who say that Rev. is full of myths, symbolism or apocalypticism. Sadly, it doesn't take a genius to understand that some of the biblical proofs of life at its brink of extinction is there. What makes it special is that no one in the 1st century was that genius to explain the course of events like the book did.

1. The Beasts and the Prostitute

These are not creatures but a political evolution that would be so bad that I think Hitler was polite.

2. The collapsing economies

The existing leaders will take advantage of it and create a universal transaction system. I think it would be introduced like the way banks introduced credit cards and how companies introduced online paying systems like Paypal.

3. The life on earth

The fact that the Ozone layer gets compromised every other day it would only mean, less plants, less oxygen and more exposure to UV Radiation. The red rivers are a sign of low oxygen. According to the book the first things that would to be destroyed would be the plant life (an aha moment) ... the first things to die will be plants due to low oxygen levels. Then the breaking out of sores because of things like skin cancer and radiation (the depletion of Ozone means more exposure to sun's radiation).

The other thing that would accelerate extinction of all life would be one hell of a meteor shower and from the look of things something like that could happen.

However, there's nothing really scary about the book we just have a thing of reading too much into everything. I still don't understand its symbolism because literally... everything is evolving towards that direction. We just need a nasty nation to declare war (if that's what will accelerate everything) and we shall sing to the stars.

Anyway, you can still sing your song? "I have evidence it's metaphoric/symbolic/apocalyptic..." Looking forward!!!

Yes, I can still sing my song. It's a book choc-full of apocalyptic symbolism, a genre Historians identify being very popular to Jews 200BC to 200AD, and uses many clearly recognisable biblical symbols and numbers to discuss the themes of Christians suffering in these Last days (2000 years and counting, see Acts 2 and Hebrews 1). It's not a timetable for the future, but a discussion of stuff that was going to start under Rome's persecution of Christians in John's generation. Read chapter 1 again and look out for the immediacy of what was about to happen.

Anyway, what is this doing in the science forum? Surely this belongs under eschatology?

 

[Linet Kihonge]

Yes, I can still sing my song. It's a book choc-full of apocalyptic symbolism, a genre Historians identify being very popular to Jews 200BC to 200AD, and uses many clearly recognisable biblical symbols and numbers to discuss the themes of Christians suffering in these Last days (2000 years and counting, see Acts 2 and Hebrews 1). It's not a timetable for the future, but a discussion of stuff that was going to start under Rome's persecution of Christians in John's generation. Read chapter 1 again and look out for the immediacy of what was about to happen.

Anyway, what is this doing in the science forum? Surely this belongs under eschatology?

I posted it here because I was asking for scientific consistencies with REVELATIONS. I was referring to environmental changes that seem consistent with Revelations 8. And also governing systems and economic downturns found in the Seals. Lastly, falling stars - meteorites as in the 6th seal etc. That's all

 

[eclipsenow]

I posted it here because I was asking for scientific consistencies with REVELATIONS. I was referring to environmental changes that seem consistent with Revelations 8. And also governing systems and economic downturns found in the Seals. Lastly, falling stars - meteorites as in the 6th seal etc. That's all

But it's not literal, it's literary,
not science, it's theology,
not linear, it's circular,
not a timeline, it's thematic,
not a future history, but a sermon to John's generation and all generations that follow.

In other words, any attempt to turn it into a current day timeline are going to end up having more to say about today's author navel gazing their own musings on today's headlines, and far less to say about anything John was actually writing about. It's a complete and utter mistake in genre categories to speculate like this. Unless you knew all that already, and are just asking as a kind of thought bubble in the sense of "What things today sound like the *imagery* in Revelation?" which is find as we all don't start actually trying to interpret it as a future timetable: that would make most of the book irrelevant to Christians for the last 2000 years!

 

[Paulos23]

If there was dates, or place names, or even if it was clearer and couldn't be reinterpreted like it is now to fit every bad thing that happens you might have something.

But it was a book written by people of a different time, who didn't want early Christians to integrate with Roman culture because they thought the end time was near. To apply it to current events to predict the future will not work because it's predictions have already failed in the past.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation#Academic

 

[eclipsenow]

If there was dates, or place names, or even if it was clearer and couldn't be reinterpreted like it is now to fit every bad thing that happens you might have something.

But it was a book written by people of a different time, who didn't want early Christians to integrate with Roman culture because they thought the end time was near. To apply it to current events to predict the future will not work because it's predictions have already failed in the past.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation#Academic

But did it have 'predictions' or more generic descriptions? Dr Paul Barnett was both bishop of North Sydney for many years and yet also taught Ancient History at Macquarie University. He's an expert on this stuff, and wrote "Apocalypse Now and then".

In it, he describes how John preached a sermon to Christians about to suffer Roman persecution, and the apocalyptic symbolism applied various biblical images to encourage them, and all Christians today living under persecution, to stand fast. The structure of Revelation has various cycles, with mini-gospel recaps (such as the dragon seeking to kill the baby cycle, repeating the basic gospel narrative of Jesus fleeing execution as a child etc), and then cycles that repeat, covering the themes of chaos in nature, chaos in government, chaos in history, etc. It's not a book of 'failed predictions' but accurate descriptions of life then and now: 2000 years and counting. For what do we see today? Wars and rumours of wars, famines, pestilence, chaos and death. In God's kindness some of these are on the decrease, but they're still prevalent enough that Revelation is a book of comfort for Christians that have experienced these things.

"Apocalypse Now and then" for under $15.
http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/Apocalypse-Now-Then-Paul-Barnett/9781875861415

 

[lesliedellow]

I posted it here because I was asking for scientific consistencies with REVELATIONS.

If you think the last book of the Bible contains any science, presumably you will be expecting the star Alpha Proxima to come plunging down to Earth any day now, even though it is about 20,000,000,000,000 miles away.

By the way, the name of the book is Revelation; not Revelations.

 

[eclipsenow]

By the way, the name of the book is Revelation; not Revelations.

Ha ha! Yes, but that's a whole 'nuther' thing. (There's no 'nuther' in the English language but that doesn't stop us picking up bad habits).

 

[Linet Kihonge]

Okay, assuming it's a vicious cycle of things that happened then and then happening now again. I believe the events could be worse and the odds of the impact of wars being the same as those of WWII could be close to none. The nuke is way worse. So as we advance in technology: there are better circumstances of growing into a universal governing system and chemical weapons leading to other greenhouse effects!!! I find nothing strange in linking the last book with SCIENCE! :/

But it's not literal, it's literary,
not science, it's theology,
not linear, it's circular,
not a timeline, it's thematic,
not a future history, but a sermon to John's generation and all generations that follow.

In other words, any attempt to turn it into a current day timeline are going to end up having more to say about today's author navel gazing their own musings on today's headlines, and far less to say about anything John was actually writing about. It's a complete and utter mistake in genre categories to speculate like this. Unless you knew all that already, and are just asking as a kind of thought bubble in the sense of "What things today sound like the *imagery* in Revelation?" which is find as we all don't start actually trying to interpret it as a future timetable: that would make most of the book irrelevant to Christians for the last 2000 years!

 

[lesliedellow]

I find nothing strange in linking the last book with SCIENCE!

My eyebrows just hit the ceiling.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

You don't have to accept Revelation is scientific! It sounds cynical if the term "Science" is the "Jaw-dropper!" No need to become sarcastic.

 

[Paulos23]

You don't have to accept Revelation is scientific! It sounds cynical if the term "Science" is the "Jaw-dropper!" No need to become sarcastic.

There is no reason too accept it as science. It has no predictive powers, nor is there any evidence that it will happen.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

There is no reason too accept it as science. It has no predictive powers, nor is there any evidence that it will happen.

How comes there are bloody rivers all over the world? (Spontaneous events)

Ask anyone out there! They will say these are the end times but from a scientific point of view there is a bacteria that causes the red-coloring of rivers and most of the time they are caused by low-oxygen in water. The more they are, the more they indicate something is up with the OZONE!!!

I'm sure science explains the red waters accurately!!!

However, I haven't pinned anything to dates or when it would possibly happen. These are things that are happening, not will happen or haven't happened before. So can we cool off a bit? I'm not for conspiracy stuff either!!! So can we argue on things that can cause breaking of sores other than something like a Mars effect. (grin)

 

[Paulos23]

How comes there are bloody rivers all over the world? (Spontaneous events)

You realize those are due to red algae blooms, some happen annually, in rivers and seas. Others are due to illegal dumping. Nothing supernatural to it. It is a warning, but of us mistreating the planet.

Ask anyone out there! They will say these are the end times but from a scientific point of view there is a bacteria that causes the red-coloring of rivers and most of the time they are caused by low-oxygen in water. The more they are, the more they indicate something is up with the OZONE!!!

Um, no.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_tide#Causes

I'm sure science explains the red waters accurately!!!

Then why are you saying they are a sign of the end times?

However, I haven't pinned anything to dates or when it would possibly happen. These are things that are happening, not will happen or haven't happened before. So can we cool off a bit? I'm not for conspiracy stuff either!!! So can we argue on things that can cause breaking of sores other than something like a Mars effect. (grin)

There are things that are happening, but they are not happening all at once, and many of these 'signs' have happened before but are just rare. We now have cameras and people all over the world, so the rare stuff is being seen and reported more. Doesn't mean it is the end times.

Now if all the rivers turned red at the same time, and the oceans, then you might have something. Until then you are just panicking about isolated events that are not happening at the same time.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

You realize those are due to red algae blooms, some happen annually, in rivers and seas. Others are due to illegal dumping. Nothing supernatural to it. It is a warning, but of us mistreating the planet.



Um, no.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_tide#Causes



Then why are you saying they are a sign of the end times?



There are things that are happening, but they are not happening all at once, and many of these 'signs' have happened before but are just rare. We now have cameras and people all over the world, so the rare stuff is being seen and reported more. Doesn't mean it is the end times.

Now if all the rivers turned red at the same time, and the oceans, then you might have something. Until then you are just panicking about isolated events that are not happening at the same time.

Thank you! Now you see what I'm saying??? Just that I'm not sure if you understood my post. As I said they are not anything new but they have been written in scripture. Sadly, there are people who associate them with the end times because of

Revelation 8:8, "The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood," (the next verse talks of the death of sea creatures)

It may sound spooky but even if it would take a hundred years before the algae or bacteria (depending on different findings) becomes a common thing in the seas it still has a scientific explanation. http://www.btnep.org/subsites/water/estuarywater/pollutants/organicmatter.aspx

All I am saying is this, the Revelation 6-7, 8, & 16 seem to speak of life at brink of extinction because the environment becomes more favorable to propel the situations!!! (Not to sound alarming but c'mmon we know how human beings are, and it's a matter of time before we manage to plunge ourselves into more doom) that's all

 

[eclipsenow]

Thank you! Now you see what I'm saying??? Just that I'm not sure if you understood my post. As I said they are not anything new but they have been written in scripture. Sadly, there are people who associate them with the end times because of

Revelation 8:8, "The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood," (the next verse talks of the death of sea creatures)

It may sound spooky but even if it would take a hundred years before the algae or bacteria (depending on different findings) becomes a common thing in the seas it still has a scientific explanation. http://www.btnep.org/subsites/water/estuarywater/pollutants/organicmatter.aspx

All I am saying is this, the Revelation 6-7, 8, & 16 seem to speak of life at brink of extinction because the environment becomes more favorable to propel the situations!!! (Not to sound alarming but c'mmon we know how human beings are, and it's a matter of time before we manage to plunge ourselves into more doom) that's all

Nope.
It's apocalyptic symbolism, common from 200BC to 200AD, and the images involved are largely biblical symbols reflecting on certain themes. In this case, the chaos in nature and accompanying effects on mankind. So when John uses water turning to blood, is it literal, or evocative? It's about nature in chaos, and summons images of God's judgement against Pharaoh and the Nile turning to blood. That nature is in chaos, and terrible things will happen on land and sea and its signs of God's judgement against the world and distance from it: that He is not here, preventing us from all harm. That's the genre of apocalyptic symbolism. Or another example: the giant locust doesn't represent some kind of Quatermass or Dr Who alien: it's a giant symbol of starvation. Locusts were feared, and a giant locust image means a really bad famine. So Ethiopia in the 80's. That's the giant locust, right there.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

Let's look at Revelations 8: 6-7, "
Then the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared to sound them.

7The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up."

There's nothing metaphoric about this, if environmental science makes sense it means "Wildfires." They should be nothing stranger than what has been happening to other fires around the world. But the book is concerned about deplorable environmental conditions,

Revelations 11:18, "The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small-- and for destroying those who destroy the earth."

The cycle of the signs have been changing every now and then but as we get closer to the edge... it should increase in frequency/intensity/. You don't have to be a genius to note the climatic changes have been on a wild rage of late. There are more earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, drier spells and cold spells, bla bla bla. Does it seem that earth is kinda getting too old to hold everything in? She's getting sick of man!!!

Nope.
It's apocalyptic symbolism, common from 200BC to 200AD, and the images involved are largely biblical symbols reflecting on certain themes. In this case, the chaos in nature and accompanying effects on mankind. So when John uses water turning to blood, is it literal, or evocative? It's about nature in chaos, and summons images of God's judgement against Pharaoh and the Nile turning to blood. That nature is in chaos, and terrible things will happen on land and sea and its signs of God's judgement against the world and distance from it: that He is not here, preventing us from all harm. That's the genre of apocalyptic symbolism. Or another example: the giant locust doesn't represent some kind of Quatermass or Dr Who alien: it's a giant symbol of starvation. Locusts were feared, and a giant locust image means a really bad famine. So Ethiopia in the 80's. That's the giant locust, right there.