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Demonstrable proof
- Thread starter Non sequitur
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- Jul 2, 2011
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Dear Non-sequitur. Here in the West, and even more worldwide, great and small miracles are happening all the time, and prayers are being answered on a very large scale. When I was young I was miraculously saved, and although Religion was frowned upon where I grew up, God saved me. I remember and I know, and there are many Christians who can claim being witness to, or themselves having been helped, guided and straightforward saved through Prayers, or God`s intervention. We cannot all be deluded or imagining being helped, or saved miraculously. Christians are followers of Christ, and I have never met a Christian who does not have the unmistakeable Aura of Jesus Christ our Leader and Friend. I say this with love, Non-sequitur. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.
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- Jul 2, 2011
- 4,532
- 541
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- United States
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- Atheist
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- US-Constitution
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Non sequitar, sorry for coming so late here . when you say demonstrable proof you are basically asking scientific proof right.it's apparent if God wanted to give is 100 percent scientific test tube repeatable proof that god would have given us that a long time ago, and that would have destroyed the point of faith. Maybe God wanted us to grow in faith towards him for a reason? Couldn't it be possible that God wants us to grow through the journey. Also don't forget that when Jesus chose his 12 disciples Did he choose among the most intellectual people of Israel ? No, in fact he chose the purest of hearts. While reason and intellect are Important my friend Jesus is telling us that seeking him with a pure heart first is what's Important.
If your one of those hands on peoPle that needs something physically tangle I would suggest researching the shroud of Turin which I and many rational people believe has the Image of our lord on it. Scientists have put over 150000 man hours and many peer reviewed work on it and so far the scales tip overwhelmingly towards it being authentic. It is a negative image with 3d and holographic information on it, And it is said that even today we do not have technology advanced enough to recreate that image.
If your ready to study it with an open mind it might be the initial breadcrumbs that could start you off on your journey towards God
Good luck
If your one of those hands on peoPle that needs something physically tangle I would suggest researching the shroud of Turin which I and many rational people believe has the Image of our lord on it. Scientists have put over 150000 man hours and many peer reviewed work on it and so far the scales tip overwhelmingly towards it being authentic. It is a negative image with 3d and holographic information on it, And it is said that even today we do not have technology advanced enough to recreate that image.
If your ready to study it with an open mind it might be the initial breadcrumbs that could start you off on your journey towards God
Good luck
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Harry3142
Regular Member
Prove that the color 'red' exists. Describe it so that one born blind would know what it looks like.
Prove that music exists. Describe it so that one born deaf would know what a masterpiece of music sounds like.
You can't do either of those. Even though those of us who can see know that the color 'red' does indeed exist, and even though those of us who can hear have heard music and recognize some pieces as the work of masters, we cannot describe either so that a person who has never seen or a person who has never heard would be convinced that they exist, much less truly comprehend what we were referring to.
Words are not yet capable of describing these two finite things (color and music). So what makes you think that words can be found which can describe that which is infinite? As of yet that transcends all words that exist to now.
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Harry3142
Regular Member
<edit>
As for condemning Scripture, it would be better for all of us if Scripture were followed more stringently rather than being cast aside. We find Christ's stern warning to us that we are to show compassion to those in need in a practical manner in Scripture (Matthew 25:31-46). Where there is suffering we are to alleviate it, just as Christ himself alleviated the suffering he saw around him. So long as anyone is hungry, thirsty, in need of clothing, sick, or in prison, we have work to do.
And not only are we to perform those acts, but we are to do so with the right motives. Scripture tells us what emotions we are to recognize as Godsent, and which emotions, as well as deeds, are in reality nothing more than our sinful nature masking itself in piety, or someone else's sinful nature trying to lead us down the wrong path. Read Galatians 5:16-26, and look honestly at 'the acts of the sinful nature' (sexual immorality, impurity, debauchery, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, orgies). How many of those 'acts' do you recognize as not actions, but the underlying emotions which lead to the commission of evil acts, and how many of those same emotions were you taught to feel, and even generate in others? But in this passage they are condemned.
Likewise, look at the 'fruit of the Spirit'. How many of those 'fruit' are emotions, rather than actions? They can all be listed as emotions, the very emotions which constitute the borders within which all our words and actions as Christians must originate. And unless all our actions have those emotions as their core, we cannot claim that we are working on behalf of the kingdom of God, irregardless of how pietistic our words and actions sound. The 'fruit' of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control are not just helpful to us as Christians; they are required of us as Christians.
Looking at your education honestly, can you still say that it was a Christian education? Were you taught that even our emotions are to be 'in synch' with what God would have of us? Were you taught that the practical outgrowth of 'the fruit of the Spirit' is not self-glorification while condemning all who think otherwise than we do, but instead the alleviation of suffering wherever we see it, irregardless of the beliefs of the people who are suffering?
Many so-called Christian educators state that we are to follow Christ's example, only to then put a spiritual 'blindfold' on us so that we will not see that Christ's example was to roll up his sleeves and go to work. With his power he was able to heal the sick, cast out demons, and raise the dead. So simply sharing what we have with others is only a small step in that direction, but it is the step that truly identifies us as attempting to be Christlike.
As for condemning Scripture, it would be better for all of us if Scripture were followed more stringently rather than being cast aside. We find Christ's stern warning to us that we are to show compassion to those in need in a practical manner in Scripture (Matthew 25:31-46). Where there is suffering we are to alleviate it, just as Christ himself alleviated the suffering he saw around him. So long as anyone is hungry, thirsty, in need of clothing, sick, or in prison, we have work to do.
And not only are we to perform those acts, but we are to do so with the right motives. Scripture tells us what emotions we are to recognize as Godsent, and which emotions, as well as deeds, are in reality nothing more than our sinful nature masking itself in piety, or someone else's sinful nature trying to lead us down the wrong path. Read Galatians 5:16-26, and look honestly at 'the acts of the sinful nature' (sexual immorality, impurity, debauchery, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, orgies). How many of those 'acts' do you recognize as not actions, but the underlying emotions which lead to the commission of evil acts, and how many of those same emotions were you taught to feel, and even generate in others? But in this passage they are condemned.
Likewise, look at the 'fruit of the Spirit'. How many of those 'fruit' are emotions, rather than actions? They can all be listed as emotions, the very emotions which constitute the borders within which all our words and actions as Christians must originate. And unless all our actions have those emotions as their core, we cannot claim that we are working on behalf of the kingdom of God, irregardless of how pietistic our words and actions sound. The 'fruit' of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control are not just helpful to us as Christians; they are required of us as Christians.
Looking at your education honestly, can you still say that it was a Christian education? Were you taught that even our emotions are to be 'in synch' with what God would have of us? Were you taught that the practical outgrowth of 'the fruit of the Spirit' is not self-glorification while condemning all who think otherwise than we do, but instead the alleviation of suffering wherever we see it, irregardless of the beliefs of the people who are suffering?
Many so-called Christian educators state that we are to follow Christ's example, only to then put a spiritual 'blindfold' on us so that we will not see that Christ's example was to roll up his sleeves and go to work. With his power he was able to heal the sick, cast out demons, and raise the dead. So simply sharing what we have with others is only a small step in that direction, but it is the step that truly identifies us as attempting to be Christlike.
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Mccneely it would be alot easier for me to rebutt your answers as I only have my iPod here with me. I'll have to check your link info for the deaths but I'm sure that's it's probably a secular version of history but most scholars definitely disagree with you on this as was shown during the d'souza hitchens debate where dsouza crushed him on this point and hitchens resorted to the old atheistic dodge that they just happened to be atheists lol. As far the age of the universe I'm an old earth creationist and I have no problem reconcialing the age of the universe with genesis. Do you I
Believe that the most important part of god communicating the earths age to someone back then would be to tell the guy that the universe was 14 billion years old? Are really all knowing to presume why god did this? I'd say it is you that is arrogant by assuming in your finite knowledge what god's reasons were to set it in motion this way. You act as if this is a make me or break me question. Quite foolish but then again so is your dogmatic worldview. The historicity of the new testament is better than anything else we have from those times and this is even argued by the new testament critics. I'll answer the rest later as I have to go to my nieces soccer game.
Your moral relativistic questions are really quite amusing since you know what it is that constitutes what a loving god is supposed to be like
Believe that the most important part of god communicating the earths age to someone back then would be to tell the guy that the universe was 14 billion years old? Are really all knowing to presume why god did this? I'd say it is you that is arrogant by assuming in your finite knowledge what god's reasons were to set it in motion this way. You act as if this is a make me or break me question. Quite foolish but then again so is your dogmatic worldview. The historicity of the new testament is better than anything else we have from those times and this is even argued by the new testament critics. I'll answer the rest later as I have to go to my nieces soccer game.
Your moral relativistic questions are really quite amusing since you know what it is that constitutes what a loving god is supposed to be like
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Ortho_Cat
Orthodox Christian
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Please note the guidelines for this forum:
We recognize that real seekers are looking for real answers, and the first reply given may be insufficient to achieve this. It is acceptable for the Original Poster (OP) to probe the answers given, and to continue the discussion on lines which help to clarify their understanding of the Christian faith.If another non-Christian seeker wishes to ask questions about the Christian faith, they may start their own thread. No more than one non-Christian (the OP) may post in a thread.
If you have questions and are not the OP of this thread, please start another thread in which to discuss them
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