Demonstrable proof

[Non sequitur]

I'm curious what kind of demonstrable and/or empirical proof Christians have for their beliefs?

 

[razeontherock]

IMHO, stand alone physical evidence that is repeatable is not to be found.

Step away from that and enter the realm of intellect, and you can find plenty. And in that state, G-d will provide irrefutable proof to the individual.

So we wind up with the paradox of knowing for sure, and having Faith.

 

[Non sequitur]

IMHO, stand alone physical evidence that is repeatable is not to be found.

Step away from that and enter the realm of intellect, and you can find plenty. And in that state, G-d will provide irrefutable proof to the individual.

So we wind up with the paradox of knowing for sure, and having Faith.

Um... I really can't accept the large-scale esoteric-like statement as a compelling argument. While it sounds pretty, it hold no weight in determining the validity of anything.

You could have said, "Open your true eyes", "When you stop hiding from the real truth..." or "Casting down the chains of man made oppression..." and they would be equally nonsensical.

So, I guess my question would really be: How do you determine reality from non-reality?

 

[razeontherock]

How do you determine reality from non-reality?

Reality is real? We don't walk right into a fully developed Faith; growth is a process.

 

[Non sequitur]

Reality is real? We don't walk right into a fully developed Faith; growth is a process.

That feels rather like you are dodging the question by using an autological word...

Faith is not a demonstrable reality, nor has the completed or growing process of faith (in anything) ever manifested itself into a demonstrable reality.

A full fledged and internally justifiable belief in anything does not yield a demonstrable reality.

So, again, I would ask: How do you determine reality from non-reality?

 

[salida]

I'm curious what kind of demonstrable and/or empirical proof Christians have for their beliefs?

This is what it boils down to:

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Would it make any difference? If your mind is already made up it will be irrelevant.

 

[Non sequitur]

This is what it boils down to:

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Would it make any difference? If your mind is already made up it will be irrelevant.

So if your mind is already made up, and you view anything it receives past that point irrelevant, you have no ability to learn, no ability grow or ability to be rational... other than when dealing in the realm of your predisposed beliefs and thoughts.

"No new information here" were the signs they were holding in the Dark Ages.

That's a ridiculously scary mentality you hold...

 

[razeontherock]

Faith is not a demonstrable reality, nor has the completed or growing process of faith (in anything) ever manifested itself into a demonstrable reality.

Utter nonsense. I won't throw the blasphemy hammer down here, because I can hope you are being sincere about exploring. Consider:

Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with [them], and confirming the word with signs following."

Most of us you will interact with here in this sub-forum have experienced this, personally. You need to retract your above statement, and consider what you are saying here.

A full fledged and internally justifiable belief in anything does not yield a demonstrable reality.

Just to avoid confusion I will add, it is G-d Himself that "yields demonstrable reality" of this type, not belief.

 

[razeontherock]

So if your mind is already made up, and you view anything it receives past that point irrelevant

This post certainly lives up to your username. Being a Christian requires growth; anything alive grows. Learning and logic are enhanced, not discarded.

 

[Non sequitur]

Utter nonsense. I won't throw the blasphemy hammer down here, because I can hope you are being sincere about exploring. Consider:

Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with [them], and confirming the word with signs following."

Most of us you will interact with here in this sub-forum have experienced this, personally. You need to retract your above statement, and consider what you are saying here.



Just to avoid confusion I will add, it is G-d Himself that "yields demonstrable reality" of this type, not belief.

I ask a simple question, twice, and you keep going off track and not answering it.

Either you do not understand what demonstrable means, because you keep using it incorrectly in your statements, or you are just trolling. Which is it?

 

[salida]

So if your mind is already made up, and you view anything it receives past that point irrelevant, you have no ability to learn, no ability grow or ability to be rational... other than when dealing in the realm of your predisposed beliefs and thoughts.

"No new information here" were the signs they were holding in the Dark Ages.

That's a ridiculously scary mentality you hold...

Not true. I believe in being open minded but one can be so opened minded that falsehood enters their mind. I have studied other religions and I'm an educated person but this within itself is irrelevant-being a christian is a spiritual decision and the bible is truly based on overwhelming evidence. This is a fact not any preconceived idea, etc. etc. I have had many discussions concerning proof (years of it). 9 times out of 10-the reasonable proof is shot down and unbelievers say-why doesn't God show up in person and it becomes vain babbling and mere attacking. No one is talked into being a christian.

This is what its about-
Are you a good person? www.livingwaters.com/good/
http://www.needgod.com/004.shtml
Can you keep the 10 commandments 100% of the time all the time? So, have you ever lied or steal something or break any of these commandments once in your life? If the answer is yes-than you are guilty. We are all guilty.
Only Jesus did kept these.

The proof is spiritually -if you answered yes to this question.

 

[Non sequitur]

This post certainly lives up to your username. Being a Christian requires growth; anything alive grows. Learning and logic are enhanced, not discarded.

"Being a _______ requires growth; anything alive grows. Learning and logic are enhanced, not discarded."

Congratulations, you just created a madlib template.

You can put any word in the above and it is applicable. Human, teacher, scientist, urologist... so what?

The difference between all those is and being a Christian is, they all change their beliefs, ideas and notions based on any new evidence that supports it. Yours will never do that.

That is a limited change and you can never fully grow if you shut out all possible options.

 

[salida]

I ask a simple question, twice, and you keep going off track and not answering it.

Either you do not understand what demonstrable means, because you keep using it incorrectly in your statements, or you are just trolling. Which is it?

Tells us what "demonstrable means". I would love to know.

No, razeontherock is not a troll sir but I consider him a brother in Christ. Maybe your the troll sir.

Your simple question doesn't seem so simple as we both don't understand it.

 

[Non sequitur]

Not true. I believe in being open minded but one can be so opened minded that falsehood enters their mind. I have studied other religions and I'm an educated person but this within itself is irrelevant-being a christian is a spiritual decision and the bible is truly based on overwhelming evidence. This is a fact not any preconceived idea, etc. etc. I have had many discussions concerning proof (years of it). 9 times out of 10-the reasonable proof is shot down and unbelievers say-why doesn't God show up in person and it becomes vain babbling and mere attacking. No one is talked into being a christian.

This is what its about-
Are you a good person? www.livingwaters.com/good/
http://www.needgod.com/004.shtml
Can you keep the 10 commandments 100% of the time all the time? So, have you ever lied or steal something or break any of these commandments once in your life? If the answer is yes-than you are guilty. We are all guilty.
Only Jesus did kept these.

The proof is spiritually -if you answered yes to this question.

First, using phrases without any evidence to back up any claim makes it null and void.

"Overwhelming evidence"? Please use specific scientific references to cite this "evidence". You will have to hold all my future claims as valid, otherwise; if you get to, I get to.

No, I haven't followed all the ten commandments and have also broken many rules of many religions that predate and postdate Christianity. It is irrelevant.

Maybe you can answer my original question: How do you determine reality from non-reality?

 

[Non sequitur]

Tells us what "demonstrable means". I would love to know.

No, razeontherock is not a troll sir but I consider him a brother in Christ. Maybe your the troll sir.

Your simple question doesn't seem so simple as we both don't understand it.

Capable of being demonstrated or proved. The ability to repeatedly demonstrate something consistently; anytime and under any of the same conditions.

An example: Gravity. Gravity is demonstrable because the rate at which something falls is always related to it's mass. Every time and anytime. Your house or my house. Night or day. Every single person can and does experience it and it has nothing to do with their belief in it.

 

[salida]

Ok, the fact that you haven't followed the 10 commandments is proof that your guilty. This isn't irrelevant-but unbelievers deny it.

Scientific? Oh, your going down the abiogenesis evolution road?-I have been there and done that too. This won't prove God to you either. Your trying to explain God in a natural way but he is supernatural

Why everything can’t be proven scientifically
Many people think that if something can't be proved scientifically then is completely false and doesn't exist. But this is a myth. The Scientific method is not the only way to prove the validity of something. It everything was like this then you can't prove that Abraham Lincoln was the president of the U.S because you can't repeat this event that belongs to the past. Also you can't prove scientifically that you had a test last Wednesday at AM, because you can't repeat it again in a controlled manner where you can register observations and data. Once it happens it is history. Anything that can't be proved scientifically can be proved by the historical method or the evidential method, which includes oral testimonies, physical testimonies. This method is used in the courts of the whole world to prove evidence and is the only one that is applied in historical events. The way that was proven that The scientific method is limited and you can't proved the events mentioned before.

I will give you some resources just in case your sincere.

www.creation.com, www.reasons.org

 

[salida]

First, using phrases without any evidence to back up any claim makes it null and void.

"Overwhelming evidence"? Please use specific scientific references to cite this "evidence". You will have to hold all my future claims as valid, otherwise; if you get to, I get to.

No, I haven't followed all the ten commandments and have also broken many rules of many religions that predate and postdate Christianity. It is irrelevant.

Maybe you can answer my original question: How do you determine reality from non-reality?

Christians have a biblical worldview. How do you determine reality?

 

[salida]

No, nothing predates the jewish faith which is the foundation for christianity. Even if it did-it doesn't make it more true.

 

[salida]

I'm showing evidence for those who want to know-this may or may not be you. We will find out.

(oldest religion)
http://www.workersforjesus.com/five.htm

The Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell a former agnostic- (its overwhelming circumstantial evidence of bible) and Examine the Evidence by Muncaster a former athiest/The Case for Christ and The Real Jesus by Lee Strobel a former athiest.

(non biblical sources proving bible)
http://www.provethebible.net/T2-Divin/D-0201.htm
http://www.israelect.com/reference/WillieMartin/Proof_of_Yahshua.htm
http://www.jonsplace.org/rel/bible.htm
Evidence of bible
http://www.spokanebiblechurch.com/Acrobat%20Files/Evidence.pdf
http://www.gotquestions.org/canon-Bible.html
http://equip.org/articles/a-defense-of-sola-scriptura
http://equip.org/articles/bible-reliability
http://www.reasonableanswers.org/12-Eyewitnesses-of-the-resurrection.html
Bible history
http://www.gotquestions.org/original-Bible.html

Internal Evidence (prophesies confirmed within bible)
Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen 49:10 - Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Lukes time period 60-70 AD)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5 - Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60 - 70 AD)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14 - Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60 - 70 AD)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 - four kingdoms are described in the interpretation of a dream of
Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek - Daniel 8:21, 10:20/and the fourth
great kingdom to follow- part iron and clay-which is the Roman Empire. During this empire Christ came and his church was established.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Historical Accuracy
The bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events hundreds of years ago and has not
been proven incorrect in any.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents):
New Testament starts - at 25 years between original and first surviving copies
Homer - starts at 500 years
Demosthenes - at 1400 years
Plato - at 1200 years
Caesar - at 1000 years
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Number of Manuscript Copies-New Testament - 5,686/Homer - 643/Demosthenes - 200/
Plato - 7/Caesar -10
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Consistency/Written by God
Written by at least 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years and has no internal inconsistencies.
It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Timothy 3:16-17. No other religious book makes such claim.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
External Evidences (prophesies outside bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never built again.
Nineveh - Nahum 1:10, 3:7,15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon - Isaiah 13:1-22
Tyre - Ezekiel 26:1-28
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bible before Science- He hangs the earth on nothing-Job 26:7/Earth is a sphere-Isaiah 40:22
Air has weight-Job 28:25/Gravity-Job 26:7, Job 38:31-33/Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6
(Job was written at least 1000 BC; some scholars think 3000 BC)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Documents that Prove Bible is True
Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles
Archeological Finds
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel

 

[Non sequitur]

Ok, the fact that you haven't followed the 10 commandments is proof that your guilty. This isn't irrelevant-but unbelievers deny it.

Scientific? Oh, your going down the abiogenesis evolution road?-I have been there and done that too. This won't prove God to you either. Your trying to explain God in a natural way but he is supernatural

Why everything can’t be proven scientifically
Many people think that if something can't be proved scientifically then is completely false and doesn't exist. But this is a myth. The Scientific method is not the only way to prove the validity of something. It everything was like this then you can't prove that Abraham Lincoln was the president of the U.S because you can't repeat this event that belongs to the past. Also you can't prove scientifically that you had a test last Wednesday at AM, because you can't repeat it again in a controlled manner where you can register observations and data. Once it happens it is history. Anything that can't be proved scientifically can be proved by the historical method or the evidential method, which includes oral testimonies, physical testimonies. This method is used in the courts of the whole world to prove evidence and is the only one that is applied in historical events. The way that was proven that The scientific method is limited and you can't proved the events mentioned before.

I will give you some resources just in case your sincere.

www.creation.com, www.reasons.org

It is 100% irrelevant to me, because it is not applicable to me. I assume you feel the same when dealing with other religions, because to you it simply isn't true.

If they emphatically spoke about how wrong you were, you wouldn't care. And neither do I.

Does the bible exist? Yes. Was it written a long time ago? Yes. Has science proven those two statements to be true? Yes.

Is my belief in the actual life and activities of Mr. Lincoln simply a case of non-demonstrable faith, in regards to any lack of any science applied?

NO.

Now, if he made supernatural claims, I'm sure the scientific community would have been all over it. Lucky for me, he didn't.



Look, this is the exact stuff I didn't want to end up debating, but the two of you keep drudging it up.

All I asked was one question.

For the umpteenth time: How you determine reality from non-reality?