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Demons tricking Adventists? A very strange and ill based theology

Mankin

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I'm sure you've all heard it before. That demons disguised as loved ones will try to convince Adventists that their theology is wrong. Honestally I find very little Biblical support for this verse. Also, as far as I know, most protestant churchs do not believe that people in heaven can communicate with the living.

Of course I have limited knowlegde on this so called Biblical truth. However I doubt it can proved without EGW. Feel free to further educate me into this so called "doctrine"
 

Moriah_Conquering_Wind

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These demons supposed to be ghosts or something Mankin?
Or demons having taken over and "possessed" living persons?

Keep in mind, the traditional SDA view bes so steeped in and dependent upon Fear that many of them quite literally believe anyone who does not "see the truth" (believe as they do) bes demon possessed. Why do you think the SDA has spawned so many horrifically insular apocalypse cults? The seed of that disorder lies in the mainstream of it, itself.

If ever ANY of them had to encounter a situation of genuine demonic possession (for themselves or a loved one) they would NOT be so glib and casual flinging such words around merely to tarbrush those who don't see things the way they do. It's an insult on both sides of that coin.
 
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Mankin

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Yes it truly is. Adventism has formed a coccoon over itself and anything that questions its coccoon must be on "Satan's side"

This trad belief is that they are demons disguised as ghosts.
 
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JonMiller

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I know that there are a lot of people who believe in ghosts and believe they can communicate with them. However, I believe that when humans are dead, they are dead... there is no such things as ghosts.

If there really is supernatural, and not just imaginings.. and they aren't really the departed spirits of people... what can they be? Who would pass themselves off as departed spirits of people when they really aren't?

And yes, I know a lot of people (including practicing Christians) who believe in ghosts and being able to communicate with them.

Additionally, even if I am wrong and people go to heaven when they die... that still doesn't explain where ghosts come from? And the Bible is completely against mediums and other communications with spirits..

JM
 
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JonMiller

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The 'ghosts' making people doubt adventist doctrine is baseless, since there is no reference to adventist doctrine in the Bible (obviously, adventism didn't exist back than). However, all interaction between spirits and humans is shown in a negative like.. the most obvious example (Samuel, Saul, and the Witch?) Samuel definitely doesn't lead Saul in a way that is good for him.

Finally, a lot of examples I have heard in the last couple hundred years have had 'spirits' suggesting things that are bad for the people involved.

JM
 
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Moriah_Conquering_Wind

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Honestly it bes not even necessary, really, to have any specific belief about ghosts (demons, dead spirits, whatever) in order to apply what the scripture states:
[bible]Galatians 1:6-8[/bible]
basically extrapolating the principle here it means ideas should be weighed upon their own merits (and likewise so should anything purporting to be a message from God) and not on the basis of WHOM said it.

That means if an ass (donkey) can speak at God's command you best bes listening, human. If a demoniac speaks it does not automatically mean it speaks lies -- as those of you privileged to know Moriah have learned. Hehehehe. ;) But it does mean that the only test bes the content of the message itself and whether it bes truth from God or not -- NOT how clean or desirable or likeable the messenger bes. It bes lies IF the contents bes untrue ... NOT just because it came from someone you hate or look down upon.

If someone filthy on the street starving and drunk came up and shared Bible truth with you it STILL bes truth no matter how sick and dissheveled he bes.

And if someone with a pristine life and perfect clothes and impeccable decorum preaches something that bes not the grace and mercy of the true God it does not care how "holy" he or his message sounds, it bes full of crap and fit to be thrown out.

Likewise if some really ugly spirit showed up but spoke truth IT WOULD STILL BE TRUTH IT SPOKE, does not matter how vicious or nasty the spirit bes or looks.
And if some pleasing apparition all glowing and flowing white and melodious of voice comes and tellsy a lie, it still bes a lie no matter how angelic it looks or sounds.
 
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BGMCFAR

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You have to remember thata spiritual body can take on any form and look like any person I believe when a person is dead they are dead The one thing you havbe to also remember Lucifer was the most beautiful angel in heaven and a third of the host were cast out with him. I don't believe in ghosts , but I do believe in apperishons.
 
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Moriah_Conquering_Wind

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Even if Lucifer speaks the truth, it still bes TRUTH.
Lucifer only lies WHEN Lucifer LIES. It has nothing to do with him being Lucifer, it only has to do with whether truth bes spoken or not.

If the most righteous god-fearing holy man in the world decided to tell a lie, the good person he bes would not make that lie into the truth. Likewise if someone filthy vile and evil tells the truth it does not become lies or falsehood just because it comes from someone dirty and vile. A child molester or serial rapist can still speak the truth and if they do, it bes no less TRUTH.
 
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JonMiller

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Honestly it bes not even necessary, really, to have any specific belief about ghosts (demons, dead spirits, whatever) in order to apply what the scripture states:
[bible]Galatians 1:6-8[/bible]
basically extrapolating the principle here it means ideas should be weighed upon their own merits (and likewise so should anything purporting to be a message from God) and not on the basis of WHOM said it.

That means if an ass (donkey) can speak at God's command you best bes listening, human. If a demoniac speaks it does not automatically mean it speaks lies -- as those of you privileged to know Moriah have learned. Hehehehe. ;) But it does mean that the only test bes the content of the message itself and whether it bes truth from God or not -- NOT how clean or desirable or likeable the messenger bes. It bes lies IF the contents bes untrue ... NOT just because it came from someone you hate or look down upon.

If someone filthy on the street starving and drunk came up and shared Bible truth with you it STILL bes truth no matter how sick and dissheveled he bes.

And if someone with a pristine life and perfect clothes and impeccable decorum preaches something that bes not the grace and mercy of the true God it does not care how "holy" he or his message sounds, it bes full of crap and fit to be thrown out.

Likewise if some really ugly spirit showed up but spoke truth IT WOULD STILL BE TRUTH IT SPOKE, does not matter how vicious or nasty the spirit bes or looks.
And if some pleasing apparition all glowing and flowing white and melodious of voice comes and tellsy a lie, it still bes a lie no matter how angelic it looks or sounds.

When Satan spoke to Christ, he used words of the Bible.

We need to be close with God to tell what is correct and what is not.

JM
 
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Sophia7

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I'm sure you've all heard it before. That demons disguised as loved ones will try to convince Adventists that their theology is wrong. Honestally I find very little Biblical support for this verse. Also, as far as I know, most protestant churchs do not believe that people in heaven can communicate with the living.

Of course I have limited knowlegde on this so called Biblical truth. However I doubt it can proved without EGW. Feel free to further educate me into this so called "doctrine"

I've heard that before, too, and it does come from Ellen White:
Spiritualists are increasing in numbers. They will come to men who have the truth as Satan came to Christ, tempting them to manifest their power, and work miracles, and give evidence of their being favored of God, and of their being the people who have the truth. Satan said to Christ, "If thou be the Son of God, command these stones that they be made bread." Herod and Pilate asked Christ to work miracles when he was on trial for his life. Their curiosity was aroused, but Christ did not work a miracle to gratify them. {ST, April 12, 1883 par. 5}

Spiritualists will press the matter to engage in controversy with ministers who teach the truth. If they decline, they will dare them. They quote Scripture, as did Satan to Christ. "Prove all things," say they. But their idea of proving is to listen to their deceptive reasonings, and attend their circles. But in their gatherings the angels of darkness assume the forms of dead friends, and communicate with them as angels of light. {ST, April 12, 1883 par. 6}

Their loved ones will appear in robes of light, as familiar to the sight as when they were upon the earth. They will teach them, and converse with them. And many will be deceived by this wonderful display of Satan's power. The only safety for the people of God is to be thoroughly conversant with their Bibles, and be intelligent upon the reasons of our faith in regard to the sleep of the dead. {ST, April 12, 1883 par. 7}

Satan is a cunning foe. And it is not difficult for the evil angels to represent both saints and sinners who have died, and make these representations visible to human eyes. These manifestations will be more frequent, and developments of a more startling character will appear as we near the close of time. We need not be astonished at anything in the line of deceptions to allure the unwary, and deceive, if possible, the very elect. Spiritualists quote, "Prove all things." But God has, for the benefit of his people who live amid the perils of the last days, proved this class, and given the result of his proving. {ST, April 12, 1883 par. 8}

2 Thess. 2:9-12: "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie; that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." {ST, April 12, 1883 par. 9}

John, upon the Isle of Patmos, saw the things which should come upon the earth in the last days. Rev. 13:13, 16:14: "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men." "For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty." {ST, April 12, 1883 par. 10}

The apostle Peter distinctly points out the class which will be manifested in these last days. {ST, April 12, 1883 par. 11}
2 Pet. 2:10-14: "But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, self-willed, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. Whereas, angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. But these, as natural brute beasts made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption, and shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the daytime. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls; a heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children." {ST, April 12, 1883 par. 12}

God, in his word, has placed his stamp upon the heresies of spiritualism as he placed his mark upon Cain. The godly need not be deceived if they are students of the Scriptures and obedient to follow the plain path marked out for them in the word of God. {ST, April 12, 1883 par. 13}

The boastful spiritualist claims great freedom, and in smooth, flowery language seeks to fascinate and delude unwary souls to choose the broad path of pleasure and sinful indulgence, rather than the narrow path and the straight way. Spiritualists call the requirements of God's law bondage, and say those who obey them live a life of slavish fear. With smooth words and fair speeches they boast of their freedom, and seek to cover their dangerous heresies with the garments of righteousness. They would make the most revolting crimes be considered as blessings to the race. {ST, April 12, 1883 par. 14}

They open before the sinner a wide door to follow the promptings of the carnal heart, and violate the law of God, especially the seventh commandment. Those who speak these great swelling words of vanity, and who triumph in their freedom in sin, promise those whom they deceive the enjoyment of freedom in a course of rebellion against the revealed will of God. These deluded souls are themselves in the veriest bondage to Satan and are controlled by his power, and yet promising liberty to those who will dare to follow the same course of sin that they themselves have chosen. {ST, April 12, 1883 par. 15}

The Scriptures are indeed fulfilled in this, that the blind are leading the blind. For by whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. These deluded souls are under the most abject slavery to the will of demons. They have allied themselves to the powers of darkness and have no strength to go contrary to the will of demons. This is their boasted liberty. By Satan they are overcome and brought into bondage, and the great liberty promised to those they deceive is helpless slavery to sin and Satan. {ST, April 12, 1883 par. 16}
Most Christians that I've talked to who believe in some kind of intermediate existence between death and the resurrection don't believe that their dead loved ones can communicate with them, so they wouldn't be likely to be deceived by such manifestations as EGW predicted.
 
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Moriah_Conquering_Wind

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Actually Sophia some of that EGW quote reads like a calculated bid for cementing legalism in the unsuspecting indoctrinee. By tying the notion of liberty FIRST (falsely) to "sinful indulgence" and then suggesting those who advocate relating to Christ instead of to the law (because the law DOES put us under bondage, scripture even abundantly attests to this) bes the voices speaking for "Satan's [supposed] side", the bondage to legalism and law keeping gets reinforced in the indoctrinee, as does the bondage to needing to stick to his own kind and the rhetoric of the cult or sect and not permit his mind to entertain any notions that might contain these specific buzzwords. This form of indoctrination bes well known nowadays due to the openness of freedom of information act with regard to various experiments performed on war prisoners, detainees, by the CIA, FBI, whatever -- psy ops and the things fictionalised in the "Manchurian Candidate" and whatever else -- as well as techniques performed in nefarious cults -- but in her day EGW bes something of a pioneer at this. Of course we all know where mind control comes from ... right? :o
 
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Sophia7

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Yes, there is definitely legalism in that quote, which is why I highlighted that one section. It sounds very familiar. Those of us who no longer believe that the OT Law is binding on Christians are continually accused of believing in "cheap grace" and of turning away from "the truth" so that we can do whatever we want and sin with "perceived impunity." EGW's words seem like an attempt to instill fear and discourage questioning of Adventist beliefs. Contrary to her warnings, though, her distorted view of the gospel and the "law of liberty," which so many Adventists have bought into through the years, brings bondage.
 
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Moriah_Conquering_Wind

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Those of us who no longer believe that the OT Law is binding on Christians are continually accused of believing in "cheap grace" and of turning away from "the truth" so that we can do whatever we want and sin with "perceived impunity."
When in reality we don't want to "sin" any more than anyone else does. We just don't want to be continually subjected to the relentlessly corrosive voice of the ACCUSER in our ears every freaking time we make even an innocent misstep. We just would like to believe in a God whose core nature involves mercy, grace, and forgiveness and who does NOT change in that regard just because WE bes floundering and inconstant creatures ourselves. Oh what horrid, horrible devil worshiping heretics that makes us. :sorry:

Needing to browbeat oneself or one's neighbors into submission, on the other hand, evinces a distinct lack of faith and trust in God. It bes saying to God NO we will NOT have this Man of infinite compassion and tender pity to rule over us; we would prefer the whip of the taskmaster, please! So who bes turning away from "the truth" NOW, eh???

EGW's words seem like an attempt to instill fear and discourage questioning of Adventist beliefs. Contrary to her warnings, though, her distorted view of the gospel and the "law of liberty," which so many Adventists have bought into through the years, brings bondage.
Yeah once you lose that whole "this bes a prophet and therefore whatever she writes bes GODS WORD" mystique and start to read her writings with critical analysis, it becomes PAINFULLY simple to see the very blatant agenda running through them.
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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You have to remember thata spiritual body can take on any form and look like any person I believe when a person is dead they are dead The one thing you havbe to also remember Lucifer was the most beautiful angel in heaven and a third of the host were cast out with him. I don't believe in ghosts , but I do believe in apperishons.

Actually the Bible says nothing about Lucifer being a beautiful angel or that Lucifer is Satan or that a spiritual body can take on any form at all. Not even does the Bible say that a third of the host were cast out with him. See Who is Lucifer (Satan Misidentified)

But it is a good illustration of how one assumption leads to other assumptions but a faulty assumption usually only leads to further faulty assumptions.
 
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freeindeed2

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Actually the Bible says nothing about Lucifer being a beautiful angel or that Lucifer is Satan or that a spiritual body can take on any form at all. Not even does the Bible say that a third of the host were cast out with him. See Who is Lucifer (Satan Misidentified)

But it is a good illustration of how one assumption leads to other assumptions but a faulty assumption usually only leads to further faulty assumptions.
I find it amazing what people choose to believe in when taking into consideration extra-Biblical sources of authority for truth. The Bible doesn't teach this.

In CHRIST alone...
 
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Moriah_Conquering_Wind

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I find it amazing what people choose to believe in when taking into consideration extra-Biblical sources of authority for truth. The Bible doesn't teach this.
The Bible does not teach what? That Satan bes once Lucifer? Or that Satan exists at all? Some people believe Satan does not exist at all. Anyway there bes a thread on here "Who / What bes the Devil" or something like that ... would be interested to hear your viewpoint.
 
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