Demons - real or not?

[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[JacksBratt]

But that is you. This is not the same for everybody and there are crimes people have committed towards others that the effects it had on their lives are different. It's just not right that it is swept under the rug otherwise God can't be called just.

I'm not sure that I am getting it. Can you give an example?

So how do you think this judgement goes? Jesus will report the stuff you did, and then God will "it's ok, go ahead" and whatever pain or big faults you have done to somebody is just swept under the rug?

Actually, the bible says that our accuser, the lawyer, in heaven, who is the prosecutor, is Satan. ( here is a good commentary on this:Satan the Prosecutor ).
The lawyer, for our defense, is Christ.
The Judge is the Heavenly Father.

That is the courtroom

We stand accused. Satan presents us as worthless sinners and Christ will Defend us as stating "this person (insert name ) is a sinner, however I (Christ) Paid for their sins and they accepted my gift of salvation and I ( Christ ) have covered their sins with my blood. Christ, as our witness, will tell God, the Judge, that we are free.

If you have rejected Christ. Denied His work or His existence or that He was the messiah... If you have denied Him before men.... Christ will simply say... "I don't know them".

The sins committed by the individual are of no consequence as to their size, shape, enormity or triviality. All sins are forgiven. Every last one.

The accused goes free... or.. the accused is found guilty. Only those covered by the blood go free. No man woman or child is without sin...

So, you figure it out.

If, Al Capone, Ted Bundy, Jesse James, Donald Trump or Miss Daisey.. Have got to a point where they humbled themselves before Christ and admitted that they were a helpless sinner and asked Christ to remember them at their judgement and accept his work on the cross...They will be covered and washed in the blood and seen white as snow and God will have no power to condemn them. They will be seen as righteous under the pardon of Christ.

Satan, will be furious. But, that's the way it goes.

How about those who didn't accept christ because of false portrayals that his christians gave about him, like "Worship this God or you will go to hell"?

Hey, it's not up to me to judge and make assumptions.

Everyone will stand before this court. Everyone's life will be reviewed and Christ will decide if you accepted Him or not.

From what I understand, we are told not to be stumbling blocks and not to do or say things that cause another to stumble.

I think this is what you are talking about. And, under the other scripture, it may be a sin but if you are a Christian, it will be a "work" that is consumed in the fire of your judgement.

Anything that you did that was righteous and honoring to Christ will survive. Anything that was not... is consumed..

What is left after this is what you are rewarded for and get your crowns, in heaven.

 

[JacksBratt]

I can understand your point. Not to put Pentecostals down but I know they open themselves up to demons when they mock speaking in tongues etc., or claim to have some sort of 'divine' word for the entire world. Pentecostal's often get dreams about demons and those dreams are often telling them they're entertaining them.

There's no doubt in my mind that demons are the disembodied spirits of fallen angels. Most people think angels have no bodies. I believe every spirit must be embodied into something whether physical metaphysical, or 'something.'

Angels never get "disembodied"

Angelic beings never die, they live in the spiritual realm. They were created, either fell with Satan or remained loyal to God. They have a specific rank, name and duty which they use to serve either God or Satan.

There is no point in their existence where part of them is removed as it is with us, when we die and our soul leaves our earthly tent.

Fallen angels are evil... demons are also evil.

Demons are the souls of the dead Nephilim who were the offspring of Genesis 6 where the "sons of God" took the "daughters of men" and had children.. who were the Nephilim.

These creatures, not human, not angel, had souls that were not able to receive the salvation of Christ. Their souls roam the universe looking for someone to posses.

If Satan had succeeded in his mission, before the flood, when it states "all flesh was corrupted"... and Noah was not found to be "perfect in his generations".. there would not have been any pure humans left for Christ to be born of and save the rest.

Check it out... in scripture, up until Christs death, burial and ressurection.... Satan was trying to block the bloodline to Christ.. the line of David.. the prophesies... everything written about our savior... Satan was trying to corrupt it, change it, avoid it.

After Christ's work on the cross, Satan switched to two new tactics... make us believe that he doesn't exist and make us believe that God doesn't exist.

Satan's game plan went from preventing Christ from being our savior.. to keeping people from accepting the gift of salvation.. through deception, unbelief and nonacceptance of our Lord and Savior.

 

[Francis Drake]

Yes, they are real in my experience.

People are kind of like cars, our personalities are largely in the passenger seat, moreso than we think.

You want Christ to be the driver, no one else.

Good comparison.
Anyone watching the news these days will see that there are many vehicles with unwanted passengers that have climbed in the back of trucks and vans when nobody is looking.

 

[JacksBratt]

God is not necessarily just to send a person to hell for having not believed in Him or worshipped Him.

Really? So what, exactly, is the process of receiving salvation?

From what I understand, it is the acknowledgement of Christ as the messiah, accepting His work on the cross, belief that He is the Son of God, submitting to Him and asking for His forgiveness of your sins.

How do you do this and not, as you have stated "believe in Him or worship Him"?

I would go as far to say that this is EXACTLY why God will not allow you eternal life..... the EXACT reason is for NOT believing in Him and NOT worshiping Him.

 

[Cis.jd]

I'm not sure that I am getting it. Can you give an example?

Nevermind I miss read it.

Actually, the bible says that our accuser, the lawyer, in heaven, who is the prosecutor, is Satan. ( here is a good commentary on this:Satan the Prosecutor ).
The lawyer, for our defense, is Christ.
The Judge is the Heavenly Father.

That is the courtroom

We stand accused. Satan presents us as worthless sinners and Christ will Defend us as stating "this person (insert name ) is a sinner, however I (Christ) Paid for their sins and they accepted my gift of salvation and I ( Christ ) have covered their sins with my blood. Christ, as our witness, will tell God, the Judge, that we are free.

I've heard of this, although it is a Jewish theology. They think Satan is still an angel and isn't God's enemy but works as a Prosector or something like that. I don't have anything to say in support or against it.

If you have rejected Christ. Denied His work or His existence or that He was the messiah... If you have denied Him before men.... Christ will simply say... "I don't know them".

The sins committed by the individual are of no consequence as to their size, shape, enormity or triviality. All sins are forgiven. Every last one.

The accused goes free... or.. the accused is found guilty. Only those covered by the blood go free. No man woman or child is without sin...
If, Al Capone, Ted Bundy, Jesse James, Donald Trump or Miss Daisey.. Have got to a point where they humbled themselves before Christ and admitted that they were a helpless sinner and asked Christ to remember them at their judgement and accept his work on the cross...They will be covered and washed in the blood and seen white as snow and God will have no power to condemn them. They will be seen as righteous under the pardon of Christ.

Satan, will be furious. But, that's the way it goes.



Hey, it's not up to me to judge and make assumptions.

Everyone will stand before this court. Everyone's life will be reviewed and Christ will decide if you accepted Him or not.

From what I understand, we are told not to be stumbling blocks and not to do or say things that cause another to stumble.

I think this is what you are talking about. And, under the other scripture, it may be a sin but if you are a Christian, it will be a "work" that is consumed in the fire of your judgement.

Anything that you did that was righteous and honoring to Christ will survive. Anything that was not... is consumed..

What is left after this is what you are rewarded for and get your crowns, in heaven.

Yes, but keep in mind that there are people who are either that badly influenced because of experiences, people who grew up differently, people who are lower in IQ, etc etc. Not everybody rejects christ because of any ill will, some could reject christ because of under the impression that other Christians wrongfully gave him - a God who created man, ordered them to worship him, and then sends them to burning forever if they don't --even those in remote islands who are away from civilization and have not heard about him.

There are sins that are just not evil enough for hell and there are sins that can't just be swept under the rug that is why there has to be a state or a place prior to heaven or hell (the final destination) in where you will have to pay the last penny.

Luke 16:19-31

 

[Francis Drake]

Personally, I have never experienced possession. I am a born again believer in Jesus so I know that the Holy Spirit resides in me and all believers. When you have the Holy Spirit in you then you cannot have any other spirit in you (i.e. demon possession)

Most people who haven't cast demons out hold that view, that Christians cannot have demons within them.
However, it has no scriptural basis, nor does experience support the idea.

Having cast thousands of demons out of Christians over the last 40 years, I can assure you that demons can certainly make their habitation within a believer, even if he is filled with the Holy Spirit.

When you become a believer in Jesus Christ then you are inviting the Holy Spirit into you.

Anyone who is born again immediately becomes a temple of the Holy Spirit.
However that temple, consisting of our body and mind, is quite labyrinthine and has countless rooms and departments that most of us have never examined, and it is those hidden rooms where demons from our pasts quietly remain in residence, or if we are not careful, will take up residence even after we come to the Lord

Similarly if you play around with the occult or other non-Christian faiths then you are opening the door and inviting another type of spirit, a demon. After all, demons are fallen angels. They were once part of the heavenly host but one third of them rebelled against God.

This applies both before and after someone becomes a Christian.

I think there are different types of demons that have different "aptitudes".

Agreed. Most demons lead or drive their hosts into various ungodly behaviours, or ungodly beliefs.
We therefore constantly encounter spirits of fear, lust, anger, deception, hatred, violence, pornography, addiction, infirmity, ...........................etc.

I think things like alcoholism are facilitated by demonic oppression. How else do you explain how faith alone can cure alcoholism?

Agreed. That's why many ex addicts remain in fear of, and unable to drink alcohol for the rest of their lives. The moment they take a sip, the demon of addiction is reactivated and they are back where they started.
They will remain this way till the demons of addiction are thrown out.

A journalist friend of mine here in the UK was a paralytic alcoholic, spending much of his free time in a drunken stupor, destroying his marriage and livelihood.
He then became a Christian and was set free.

His journalism required him to spend lots of time meeting people in pubs seeking information, and he always drank orange juice.
One day as he bought a round of drinks, the Lord spoke to him.
"Do you believe I have healed your alcoholism?"
"Yes Lord, you have completely turned my life around."
"Then why are you still drinking orange juice?"

He was shocked at the interchange from the Lord, but taking the Lord at his word, he added a pint of beer for himself in that round.
He discovered that he was indeed totally free from all spirits of addiction.

What I would say is that casting out demons is a risky business. I believe it can be done still to this day but I wouldn't know how to go about it as I am a baby Christian. I think you would need to really know what you're doing.

Casting demons out of people is no more risky than any other pursuit. In the late 70s, I started casting demons out as a relatively new believer because I suddenly found myself put on the spot when praying for my fellow believers.
The primary need is spiritual discernment, but most demons can be also discerned by their activity in a person's life.

To sum it all up, yes demons are still amongst us. They can oppress us and even possess us but we cannot be possessed by them when we have the Holy Spirit.

Again, a very clever doctrine of demons, designed to blind Christians to the fact that demons have virtual free reign in the church.

 

[Francis Drake]

I can understand your point. Not to put Pentecostals down but I know they open themselves up to demons when they mock speaking in tongues etc., or claim to have some sort of 'divine' word for the entire world. Pentecostal's often get dreams about demons and those dreams are often telling them they're entertaining them.

Your above reply was to this believer, who is also Pentecostal in his walk with the Lord, as indeed all believers should be. Therefore I reject your blanket accusation, and I also know of no Pentecostal who mocks speaking in tongues.

 

[RDKirk]

It's insecure.


So we don't have freewill? All these atrocities humans have done for ages such as the Dark Ages, the Salem Witch Trials, The Holocaust.. or just basic things such as what you and I are doing now. This is all not out of choices?

Once again, you're conflating constrained choices with free will.

I can't believe you didn't understand that. If you were born in NK, how high is the chance that you know anything about Christianity or even what is in the Bible? How about the middle east, china, India, or any location in where there is a dominant population of different religions. Most likely you inherit the beliefs taught to you.

As I said before, you're talking about different things there. "But for people who are geographically born in another place; people who grew up differently" is not the same thing as "they don't believe or worship in him."

God is not a disinterested judge; God is biased toward salvation. Scripture gives ample witness that God's judgment takes into consideration how much a person knows about Him and what that person did with that knowledge.

Job did not, for instance, know the name of Jesus, nor was Job given any kind of promise for the future a la Abraham. Job's attitude was, "I see a God in creation, and since creation is so grand, that God must be grand. I want to be on his team." There were other religions around Job, but he saw a glimmer of what was true, and he responded to that.

Paul spoke of such people in Acts 17, and he spoke of the antithesis of such people in Romans 1.

This concept is called "inclusivism." C. S. Lewis was an inclusivist. Billy Graham was an inclusivist.

What does this have to do with the after life?

After that question, I had to check the top of the page to be sure of what forum area I was in.

Since we're all Christians here then our discussion is always with an eye toward eternity, as is everything Christ is concerned with and all that the New Testament speaks of. Jesus did not say, "Life sucks and then you die."

My point is that we have one choice to make: To be slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. A slave to sin, if given liberty and eternity, will become infinitely sinful. That is why those who choose to be slaves to sin cannot be given liberty and eternity.

 

[RDKirk]

No, it is you who are thoughtlessly regurgitating traditional Christianese. (And BTW I never mentioned the word "possessed" when it comes to demons.)

We are commanded by Jesus to cast demons out as a matter of course.-
Mark16v15And He said to them, “Having gone into all the world, proclaim the gospel to all the creation. 16The one having believed and having been baptized will be saved, but the one having disbelieved will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those having believed: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;

The unregenerate have no interest in having demons cast out, either because they don't believe in such things, or they love the power and aggression the demons give them.

Thus I have never ever cast a demon out of an unbeliever, but always believers, and virtually all spirit filled because those not filled with the spirit tend to be disinterested in real spirituality.

Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. -- Matthew 12

You appear to be believe the Holy Spirit within a person has no power of His own, and no power to guard a believer, but must wait for you to do something to free Him from being held captive by a demon.

 

[david tyler]

DELETED

 

[Francis Drake]

Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. -- Matthew 12

You appear to be believe the Holy Spirit within a person has no power of His own, and no power to guard a believer, but must wait for you to do something to free Him from being held captive by a demon.

Even when the Lord was in the temple, Jerusalem was still attacked and broken into.
Even when the Lord was in the temple at Jerusalem, the elders of Israel also erected pagan idols in that temple!
How did that happen?
Tell me, how many times have you cast demons out of people?

 

[RDKirk]

Even when the Lord was in the temple, Jerusalem was still attacked and broken into.
Even when the Lord was in the temple at Jerusalem, the elders of Israel also erected pagan idols in that temple!
How did that happen?
Tell me, how many times have you cast demons out of people?

Only a couple. Twice as many as Paul.

But, yeah, you claim thousands. Or maybe it was just hundreds.

Since you raised that challenge of numbers, I'll have to say that I don't believe you're doing what you believe you're doing.

 

[Francis Drake]

Only a couple. Twice as many as Paul.

You serious?
You imagine Paul only cast one demon out?

But, yeah, you claim thousands. Or maybe it was just hundreds.

Yes, I initially said hundreds, and then thousands.
That was simply based on the number of times I have prayed for people in 40 odd years, and in most cases cast several demons out because they usually work in groups.

Since you raised that challenge of numbers, I'll have to say that I don't believe you're doing what you believe you're doing.

Hahaha. Hilarious man talking on a subject you have almost nil experience.

I notice however, that you didn't answer my points, that the elders of Israel erected idols to other gods in the temple, while the Spirit of the Lord was resident!

Anyone claiming that a Christian can't have a demon has got his head in the sand.
Anyone who says a Christian can't have a demon, is himself teaching a doctrine of demons.

 

[Francis Drake]

One of my first experiences of deliverance back in the 70s was when a friend and I were asked to pray for a visitor to the church.

I can't remember what her problem was, but once we introduced ourselves and settled down, I asked that we wait on the Lord for a word of knowledge in order to direct our prayers.
Its no sense trying to help people when you are blind to the real problems.

As we waited on the Lord, I received a rather odd word, "The spirit of Mormon".
I had virtually no knowledge on the subject, but gave her the word. She was immediately indignant, saying she had never been involved with Mormonism in her life. I apologised, and we moved on to other things.

As we were praying on these other things, she suddenly gasped and put her hand over her mouth in shock!

She then related a conversation she had had with her mother when she was a child.
Her mother described how her own great great grandfather had been a part of Brigham Young's famous pioneer wagon trek to Salt Lake in 1847!
Very clearly, there was Mormonism in her family line and the Lord had just exposed it.

She apologised for being so indignant earlier, and we were able to cast the spirit of Mormon out of her.

That demon had been passed down her family line for over 130 years, demonising the spiritual lives of every descendant of that man, and perverting their understanding of scripture.
The work of that demon was stopped dead that day because of a simple word of knowledge, and obedience of the saints in casting it out.

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[JacksBratt]

I've heard of this, although it is a Jewish theology. They think Satan is still an angel and isn't God's enemy but works as a Prosector or something like that. I don't have anything to say in support or against it.

What do you mean by "Jewish Theology?

From what I can see it's scriptural.

Yes, but keep in mind that there are people who are either that badly influenced because of experiences, people who grew up differently, people who are lower in IQ, etc etc. Not everybody rejects christ because of any ill will, some could reject christ because of under the impression that other Christians wrongfully gave him - a God who created man, ordered them to worship him, and then sends them to burning forever if they don't --even those in remote islands who are away from civilization and have not heard about him.

I believe that Christ is very capable of understanding what life, here on earth, was like. He came as a poor child born to hard working parents. He suffered more than anyone. Not only at the hands of the religious leaders, but at the hands of the people of His home town and almost everywhere He went.

He socialized with the down trodden and misfits and lower class.

He knows all and has lived it.

There is no man, woman or child that is going to stand before Christ and be able to say.. "You don't understand.. it's not my fault"... Not one.

We all will be judged by our choices in life and we will all be "without excuse" when it comes to that very important question... "did you accept Christ or reject Him"?

There are sins that are just not evil enough for hell and there are sins that can't just be swept under the rug that is why there has to be a state or a place prior to heaven or hell (the final destination) in where you will have to pay the last penny.

There is a place prior to heaven or hell... It's called "life on earth". You either accept Christ.. and go to heaven.. or deny Him and continue to Hell.
It matters not what your sin was... one sin is one sin is one sin and your perfection is toast.

Think of sin like this... You have worked at a factory for 50 years.. every day, no holidays, no sick days, not time off and not one late day. They can pull up your record of employment and there is not one day that you were not there or not even one second late. You never left early, you never took too long for lunch...

In short.. a stellar record.

They are going to give you an award for this perfect of all perfectness in your attendance....

Then, one day, you punch in and you are one second late.

Are you perfect? Is your perfect record in tact?

No, even though you had a very good (and physically impossible) record.. it is not perfect.. and cannot be held as such.. it cannot be awarded as such.

That is the way it is with sin... Not one human being is perfect. We all have sinned. Some more, some less.

However, "all have come short of the glory of God".

Therefore... you cannot stand in the presence of God and say that you have met what is necessary to enter eternity.

Only Christ has done that.

My example is a wee bit exaggerated but the point is made... It only takes one infractions... selfishness, gluttony, a curse, a lie, talking back to your parents.... just one and you are no longer perfect.

 

[Francis Drake]

Every Pentecostal I know is a fraud! I'll tell you about some of my nightmares with Pentecostals on the other thread.

Thanks for the insult pal. I suppose that includes Peter and all his fraudulent friends.
Obviously Jesus made a mistake when he sent the Holy Spirit.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

(And BTW I never mentioned the word "possessed" when it comes to demons.)

(just realized a question, maybe enlightening or at least pertinent)

WHO "possesses" (owns) (or controls) a person if they are following / full of / the teachings (thoughts) of demons ?
(Only Yahweh or the devil can be the answer I think, one of the two)