Demoic Possession - Your Opinion

[Notedstrangeperson]

Out of interest, how many people here believe in the possibility of being possessed by demons?

If you do:

• What makes it different from natural mental illness (especially schizophrenia and multiple personality syndrome)?
• Does being possesed mean the victim is not responsible for any crimes they committed?
• Why is demonic possession so rare?

If you don't - why not?
Thanks.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

In Jesus' day demon possession was not uncommon. The disciples cast out many demons. This may actually have been a view into the world as it actually was and still is. To my mind only demon influence or outright possession can explain some human behaviors, from mental illness to horrendously 'inhuman' acts.

I also think that when God gives people over to a "reprobate" mind he is actually allowing demon possession of their minds. Look how easily Satan is able to "enter into" a person.

I also think that many who are going to be destroyed never were really fully 'human', as we think of ourselves, but rather have been under the influence or possession of demons most or all of their lives. When God destroys them he is not being unfair or cruel, but really killing the body that a demon used to do evil deeds all his 'mortal' life.

As far out as it sounds I think the great spiritual battle being reinacted is against real spirits. We humans are just mortal serrogates on a physical gameboard. I think the Greeks were right, believing that God was the great puppetmaster, directing a play that he himself produced, causing everything to happen as written. Thankfully for us those puppet strings are long and somewhat flexible.

owg

 

[Rhamiel]

Out of interest, how many people here believe in the possibility of being possessed by demons?


If you do:

• What makes it different from natural mental illness (especially schizophrenia and multiple personality syndrome)?
• Does being possesed mean the victim is not responsible for any crimes they committed?
• Why is demonic possession so rare?

If you don't - why not?
Thanks.

natural mental illness can be treated with medicine or therapy, spiritual things can not be treated with those things (though sometimes people suffer from both at the same time)
I would say morally yes, they are not responsible, legaly, no they are responsible, we could not allow "possession" to be a legal defence
demonic possession is rare because God is in control, demonic possession allows the world to see how evil the enemy is, so God allows in, just as He alloed the emeny to attack Job, He lets bad happen to bring forth greater good

 

[&Abel]

natural mental illness?

I think all disease is consequence of sin(not necessarily the persons but humanity in general)

mental illness is always a manifestation of evil in one form or another but a strict possession is different

 

[iamjcs]

Out of interest, how many people here believe in the possibility of being possessed by demons?

If you do:

• What makes it different from natural mental illness (especially schizophrenia and multiple personality syndrome)?
• Does being possesed mean the victim is not responsible for any crimes they committed?
• Why is demonic possession so rare?

If you don't - why not?
Thanks.

I do believe in the possibility of being possessed by demons.

Doctors don't normally take into account that a person's physical & mental condition can be affected by their spiritual condition.
Infact some doctors don't even take into account that a person's physical condition can be affected by their mental condition.

Demonic possession is not as rare as it appears, just because the world does not accept/believe in demonic possession does not mean it does not exist.
It wouldn't be the 1st or the last time doctors misdiagnosed.
On the other hand, if someone has mental illness, that does not automatically mean they are possessed.

If every doctor was a Christian version of Patch Adams, I am sure the findings & results would be different.​

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

I also think that when God gives people over to a "reprobate" mind he is actually allowing demon possession of their minds. Look how easily Satan is able to "enter into" a person.
. . .
We humans are just mortal serrogates on a physical gameboard. I think the Greeks were right, believing that God was the great puppetmaster, directing a play that he himself produced, causing everything to happen as written.

I may have read that wrong (in fact it's very likely that I have) but do you mean some people are "born to be condemned" - to put it blunty?

I wouldn't agree with this point because in order to a person to be guilty or worthy of punishment, they have to realise what they were doing was wrong but chose to do it anyway, freely. Besides it seems unlikely God would just cast aside even sinners, even just one or two.

natural mental illness can be treated with medicine or therapy, spiritual things can not be treated with those things (though sometimes people suffer from both at the same time)

Yes. I've read only a very, very small amount on the subject, but the author said something along the lines of "The question isn't whether the patient is possessed or mentally ill, it's whether they're just mentally ill or mentally ill AND possessed."

I think all disease is consequence of sin(not necessarily the persons but humanity in general)

Not ALL disease, no - but we should note that demoic possession does not happen by accident; they don't just leap out of the bushes like some rapist. It usually happens after somebody has been dabbling in the occult.

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

What makes it different from natural mental illness (especially schizophrenia and multiple personality syndrome)?

I am going to try to say this nicely. Especially seeing as you did not say that this is your view. However, as someone that suffers from a mental illness (not one that you listed, but a mental illness none-the-less) I find it rather offensive when people suggest that I am possessed by a demon.

Now that being said, I would argue that what we see in the Bible as 'demon' possession may or may not have been mental illnesses that Jesus was curing. This would be working under the theory of accomadationalism, i.e. that the problem was a mental illness, but no one of that time would have understood the idea of mental illness so it was attributed to demon possession instead. I am not necessarily saying that this is my view, just that it is a reasonable one.

[QUOTE&Able]mental illness is always a manifestation of evil in one form or another but a strict possession is different [/QUOTE]

I am going to ask you to clarify. You are not saying that mental illness is caused by the evil actions of an individual right? You are saying that mental illness is caused by the evil that entered the world at the Fall.

Demonic possession is not as rare as it appears, just because the world does not accept/believe in demonic possession does not mean it does not exist.
It wouldn't be the 1st or the last time doctors misdiagnosed.

I think you are forgetting to take into acount that doctors do not claim to have figured out all of the intricacies of the body/mind and what can go wrong with them. I bet that as we figure more of the science out, these 'mystery problems' that are attributed to demons will become less and less frequent. I mean, in the past, it was thought that a simple sneeze was caused by a demon (granted this was believed by someone who was later declared a heritic). More and more, even mental disorders are being shown to have a physical reason. Why does taking medicine help me with my disorder? Because it is, in part, caused by a chemical imbalance in my brain which is corrected by taking meds. Just because we do not understand all mental disorders as well as we understand mine, does not mean that they are demons, it simply means that we have yet to find a cuase/treatment.

To those that say that mental disorders can (at least in some cases) be related to demons I always wonder, why do they not say that diabetes is related to demons? (of course now, someone is going to come out and say that they do ) They are both medical problems. I think the thing is that people are still slightly scared of mental illness because it is harder to understand. Diabetes has to do with insulin production. Everyone can understand that. But when someone starts acting out of the norm we (and yes I am including myself) can get scared.

Well, sorry for my little rant. Obviously this is something important to me. Also, I hope that everyone knows that my comments were not aimed at individuals. Even where I quoted people, my goal was just to illuminate my point of view.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I may have read that wrong (in fact it's very likely that I have) but do you mean some people are "born to be condemned" - to put it blunty?

I wouldn't agree with this point because in order to a person to be guilty or worthy of punishment, they have to realise what they were doing was wrong but chose to do it anyway, freely. Besides it seems unlikely God would just cast aside even sinners, even just one or two.

I do believe in predestination; some will be called, others not. The White Throne judgement period notwithstanding many will be destroyed. This is the "second death".

No one is morally 'neutral' like Adam and Eve before the fall. One is either good or not good. Those who are good have at least some of God's spirit, or have been strongly disposed to goodness. But the default moral condition of the world is evil i.e. "This present evil world", or age. (Jesus's words.) How can most of society be evil without the influence or possession of demon spirits? Why do otherwise intelligent people burn their own houses down around themselves by greedy, thoughtless, or just plain evil actions.

Consider all the 'good' people that have caused our present economic meltdown. Thoughtless greed on a near universal level, with all from the least to the greatest participating. A powerful and evil spirit force is misguiding mankind.

owg

 

[Jpark]

Out of interest, how many people here believe in the possibility of being possessed by demons?

If you do:

• What makes it different from natural mental illness (especially schizophrenia and multiple personality syndrome)?
• Does being possesed mean the victim is not responsible for any crimes they committed?
• Why is demonic possession so rare?

If you don't - why not?
Thanks.

Demons exist for Jesus accepted the reality of demons.

Schizophrenia can be a mental disease, but can also be caused by demon possession.

The host is under the dominion of a power influencing him and subjecting him to madness. He is apparently aware of what is going on. But the intelligence prevents him from intervening. The host is rendered powerless and immobile. The demon torments and harassess the man.

One must remember that it is not the power of the exorcist that casts out the demon, but the power of God. (Luke 10:19) God passively allows demonic possession because in the absence of His Spirit, which is the same as the absence of His presence (Psalms 51:11), evil will abound. (1 Samuel 16:14) The host, once delivered, is vulnerable to greater demonic possesion. (Luke 11:24-26) He must receive the Holy Spirit. For God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. (1 John 1:5)

Demonic possession is hardly rare. As Jesus launched into His messianic ministry, which involved divine healing and deliverance (Matthew 8:16), He is immediately confronted by the realm of darkness. Evil spirits are everywhere. Sinning can give an opportunity and a place for demonic seige, and for believers, demonic oppression. (Ephesians 4:26-27) When the Holy Spirit is grieved, the believer is the first to know. (Ephesians 4:30-31)

Thus, whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His Spirit remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. (1 John 3:8) Born of God refers to spiritual new birth. (2 Corinthians 5:17) Now if one lives in the Spirit, one should walk in the Spirit. (Romans 8:5; Galatians 5:25) For he who is led by the Spirit is the son of God (Romans 8:14) and he is not under the law. (Galatians 5:18)

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Now that being said, I would argue that what we see in the Bible as 'demon' possession may or may not have been mental illnesses that Jesus was curing. This would be working under the theory of accomadationalism, i.e. that the problem was a mental illness, but no one of that time would have understood the idea of mental illness so it was attributed to demon possession instead. I am not necessarily saying that this is my view, just that it is a reasonable one.

I don't agree with the accomadationlism theory on this point - Jesus being the son of God had greater knowledge than the average human being, so I doubt that he would have mistaken mental illness for demoic possession.

But as I said earlier, not everyone who is mentally ill is possessed (obviously) but everyone who is possessed is mentall ill.

To those that say that mental disorders can (at least in some cases) be related to demons I always wonder, why do they not say that diabetes is related to demons? (of course now, someone is going to come out and say that they do ) They are both medical problems. I think the thing is that people are still slightly scared of mental illness because it is harder to understand. Diabetes has to do with insulin production. Everyone can understand that. But when someone starts acting out of the norm we (and yes I am including myself) can get scared.

Actually that's a good point.
I think it's because when a demon possesses a human, it does so to distort their thinking and behaviour - something which mental illness does. Somebody who has a physical disability or disorder on the other hand may be a perfectly normal and happy person.
Our brains after all are central to what makes us human, hence attacking the brain (as consequently the mind) naturally scares us the most.

I do believe in predestination; some will be called, others not.

I don't believe in predestination or 'fate', and the reason I don't is that it suggests that repentance means nothing. See, repenting means taking control - to admit that we have sinned (and sinning means knowing something was wrong and doing it anyway) and that we're truly sorry. If we are predestined to go to hell then asking for forgiveness doesn't matter.

On the subject of possession (just to keep things on topic) I'd point out that becoming possessed is also a result of free will: people become possessed after dabbling in the occult, we are not 'given' to a demon. So to speak.

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

Jesus being the son of God had greater knowledge than the average human being, so I doubt that he would have mistaken mental illness for demoic possession.

I didn't say that Jesus did not understand. Jesus was accommodating to everyone else that could not have understood mental illness.

Actually that's a good point.
I think it's because when a demon possesses a human, it does so to distort their thinking and behaviour - something which mental illness does. Somebody who has a physical disability or disorder on the other hand may be a perfectly normal and happy person.
Our brains after all are central to what makes us human, hence attacking the brain (as consequently the mind) naturally scares us the most.

This is still problematic. As science progresses, we are finding more and more chemical reasons for mental illness. What happens when all of the mental illnesses are explained. Then all of your 'demons' disappear.

For instance, my particular mental illness used to be explained in a very simple way. We were witches and devil worshipers. Due to some of the oddities that we exhibit people used to believe that we were communing with demons. Well, obviously that is not true and as science progressed they realised that there was a chemical imbalance in the brain, and what is more, they realised that there was something that they could do about it. Specific mentally ill people today that are thought to be demon possesed are in the same boat that my kindred were in several centuries ago (apart from the fact that today burning people at the stake is no longer in vogue). Centuries from now, these 'demon illnesses' will all have scientific names complete with natural explanations as why people suffer from them and (hopefully) a treatment plan that works.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

I didn't say that Jesus did not understand. Jesus was accommodating to everyone else that could not have understood mental illness.

Ah. So does that mean he knew they were mentally ill (and nothing more) but he pandered to their beliefs that the victims were 'possessed'?
I'm a bit thick so you'll have to clarify.

This is still problematic. As science progresses, we are finding more and more chemical reasons for mental illness. What happens when all of the mental illnesses are explained. Then all of your 'demons' disappear.

This depends on whether you see possession as just a label for things we do not know, or whether you see possession as a malevolent force entering a human's body. Sorry to repeat myself, I just wanted to say that demoic possession is not a 'substitute' for mental illness.

Rhamiel pointed out earlier that someone who can be cured using medicine, surgery or therapy was probably not possessed in the first place. You are also right mention that every other option should be used before the diagnosis (for lack of a better word) of possession should be made.

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

Ah. So does that mean he knew they were mentally ill (and nothing more) but he pandered to their beliefs that the victims were 'possessed'?
I'm a bit thick so you'll have to clarify.

Essentially that is what I am saying. (Though note in my earlier post that I am not necessarily saying this is what I think, just that it is a reasonable argument).

The idea of accomadationalism goes back to the very, very early Church (though more in regards to the Old Testament) and there are countless examples where it is more than likely that accomadationalism is taking place.

This depends on whether you see possession as just a label for things we do not know, or whether you see possession as a malevolent force entering a human's body. Sorry to repeat myself, I just wanted to say that demoic possession is not a 'substitute' for mental illness.

Rhamiel pointed out earlier that someone who can be cured using medicine, surgery or therapy was probably not possessed in the first place. You are also right mention that every other option should be used before the diagnosis (for lack of a better word) of possession should be made.

Ok, but my point is that historically speaking, many things that we know are mental illnesses today were, in the past, attributed to demonic activity. Now that we have a way of treating them and an explanation as to why they occur, if I am reading you correctly, you would argue that they are not demons but simply... well, mental illnesses (as medical science shows). My question is, assuming that medical science will continue to make breakthroughs, why shouldn't we assume that some of these odd behaviors that you wish to attribute to demons will not simply be explained by more natural means? As an example, consider someone that is 'demon possesed' today because they are exhibiting strange unexplainable behavior. Now, move that person 2 centuries in the future. Odds are that person will not be considered to be possessed for the simple reason that, like Schizophrenia, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, bipolar disorder, etc. today, there will be a natural explanation (and hopefully a treatment)

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

My question is, assuming that medical science will continue to make breakthroughs, why shouldn't we assume that some of these odd behaviors that you wish to attribute to demons will not simply be explained by more natural means?

Hmm . . . I think that if demoic possession does exist then medical science will never be able to cure it. If medical science does come up with a treatment, then the victim/sufferer was never possessed in the first place. They were just sick.

The reason medical science would not be able to cure possession (although it could probably treat the other symptoms that go with it) is that demons are spiritual beings - they live outside the physical world and beyond the laws of nature. How would we be able to control that?

 

[iamjcs]

Out of interest, how many people here believe in the possibility of being possessed by demons?

If you do:

• What makes it different from natural mental illness (especially schizophrenia and multiple personality syndrome)?
• Does being possesed mean the victim is not responsible for any crimes they committed?
• Why is demonic possession so rare?

If you don't - why not?
Thanks.

Yes I do.

• What makes it different from natural mental illness is chemical imbalance. Schizophrenia and all fear flee from God's love, they cannot exist together. Multiple personality syndrome sounds like demonic possession to me.
• Being possesed means the victim does things it wouldn't otherwise. Does it mean that though the victim let them in that the victim is not responsible for any crimes committed?
• Demonic possession isn't as rare as it seems, most doctors try to treat just the physical or mental & ignore the spiritual, but they can affect each other, they're connected as part of us.

-

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

The reason medical science would not be able to cure possession (although it could probably treat the other symptoms that go with it) is that demons are spiritual beings - they live outside the physical world and beyond the laws of nature. How would we be able to control that?

But you are not hearing me. Why should I trust that you are right about people being possessed by demons today when in the past people were so obviously wrong? Look, if I lived a few centuries ago, I would have been burnt at the stake, condemned as communing with demons, and all because of an imbalance of serotonin; nothing malicious. Why should I trust that this generation has finally discovered the secret to discerning what is a mental illness and what is a demon? No, it is very obvious to me that the poor souls that are 'demon' possessed and are, unfortunately, convinced of this fact would benefit much more greatly from God working through therapy than anything else. This is not to deny a spiritual side of things. Obviously prayer would help these individuals as well but it does a huge disservice to them when demonic activity is used as a diagnosis.

Schizophrenia and all fear flee from God's love, they cannot exist together.

What of people that suffer from Schizophrenia and yet are believers in God. If these problems "flee from God's love" then you have to assume that they are not true believers. I for one am not willing to take that stance.

Multiple personality syndrome sounds like demonic possession to me.

Then why is there great success from treating them with medical science? If by demon you are actually talking about a sentient, thinking, evil, spirit then why can we trace medical reasons for this disease to occur. Just because it is a disturbing thought to think about these sufferers does not mean that there is not a natural cause.

Being possesed means the victim does things it wouldn't otherwise. Does it mean that though the victim let them in that the victim is not responsible for any crimes committed?

Wait, are you implying that these demons or these mental illnesses are invited in by the victim?

Demonic possession isn't as rare as it seems

Proof?







Listen, I am really not trying to be a jerk about this, I really am not. But it seems as if you are arguing from the unknown. You don't understand these problems so you believe that they (sometimes) are caused by demons. But what you are missing is that just because you don't know the natural cause doesn't mean that there isn't one. As I mention above, it used to be believed that a sneeze was caused by an evil spirit (hence why we say "God bless you" afterward). However, just because those people did not realise that there was a perfectly natural and reasonable explanation does not mean that there isn't one. It is the same sort of fallacy with the 'God of the Gaps' idea. This is where when science has yet to explain something we attribute it (directly) to God. So, why does the apple fall from the tree? Because God makes it. The problem with this idea is that as we begin to discover the real natural reasons (like the law of gravity) God begins to disappear. Likewise, as we have discovered natural reasons for these diseases, so-called 'demon possessions' have begun to disappear and I see no reason as to why they will not continue to diminish.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

But you are not hearing me. Why should I trust that you are right about people being possessed by demons today when in the past people were so obviously wrong? Look, if I lived a few centuries ago, I would have been burnt at the stake, condemned as communing with demons, and all because of an imbalance of serotonin; nothing malicious. Why should I trust that this generation has finally discovered the secret to discerning what is a mental illness and what is a demon?

Admittedly I don't know an awful lot about people who were 'possessed' were treated in the past. At a pinch I would say the treatment of those who were accepted as mentall ill wasn't much different from those thought to be possessed. They were both treated badly.

Possession is a last resort diagnosis, it's not a label we should slap on lightly. But then again the same could be said for sociopathy.

The only way to try and seperate possession from severe but natural illnesses would be to find someone who is possessed and study them. But in order to find such a person we would have to entertain the idea that possession actually exists. It's sort of a catch 22 situation (but then again normal medical disorders also have the same problem).

Off the top of my head I would say the main 'symptom' that seperates possession from other mental illnesses is that the victims does bad things, but is upset by them and feels unable to control them. Schizphrenics, sociopaths and DID sufferers act in a subtly different manner. Not the best example, I know, but I don't understand much about possession myself.

Being possesed means the victim does things it wouldn't otherwise. Does it mean that though the victim let them in that the victim is not responsible for any crimes committed?

Wait, are you implying that these demons or these mental illnesses are invited in by the victim?

Imjcs does have a point. I know I'm repeating myself but another trait that seperates possession from natural sickness is that possession does not happen by accident. It doesn't strike it's victim for no apparent reason. People at risk of possession are often the ones who were dabbling in the occult.

Listen, I am really not trying to be a jerk about this, I really am not. But it seems as if you are arguing from the unknown.

You're right, unfortunately.

The "God of gaps" problem could be solved if we could find a demon. How to go about doing that is a much more difficult manner.

 

[k2svpete]

BTF, you're on the money. I have three uncles who work as psych nurses and my mother is a registered nurse with over 40 years experience. Every case of 'possession' in the NT can be explained as a medical condition that is readily identified through the symptoms described in the scriptures. Mental health is a relatively new thing but we have the understanding to be able to identify those illnesses described now.

Yes, just as Jesus taught in parables and used beliefs of the audience in the story to make a point, so is the case with the possessions.

The influence of Greek thought lead to a belief in demons that was not present in OT Israel. Only through this influence did the belief of such being come about. Even then, what is currently adhered to by way of demonic doctrines is not even consistent with the original Grecian ideas. Demons were originally looked upon as messengers between the dead and the living, neither good nor evil.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Demons were originally looked upon as messengers between the dead and the living, neither good nor evil.

You're partly right. Originally all demons were once angels, making them messengers. Part of their job was to test humans (including tempting them). After the Fall - the story of how the angel Lucifer became satan - demons no longer use their traits to better humanity, but use them to distort out thinking.

I brought this up because demons are suppose to confuse their victims. BTW there is also an interesting Greek myth about a man called Orestes. It's worth a read.

 

[iamjcs]

I know humans through the years have had a tendancy to go
from one extreme to the other, like a pendalum.
They aren't finding the balance of the middle.

I want to point out that where humans once blamed demons for too much, including sneezes, they now too often dismiss even the possiblity of demons or spiritual problems being at the root.

A person is 3 diminsional - made up of physical, mental, & spiritual.
1 can have affect on another thus to truly heal someone all 3 need to be put aright.

This is why Jesus is the supreme physician, for only He can heal all 3.