Deliberate Sin

[whit87]

Prior to the last three weeks of my life I would have described myself a relatively sane. However recently (as I've tried to grow in my faith), I've begun experiencing classic symptoms of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, all in conjecture with my faith. It seems like everything I do anything (watch a television show, take a payment at work: I'm paid partially on commission, spending time on social networking sights, or with friends, catching up on world events via cnn.com) , a thought will come into my mind: asking, telling, or insisting that I'm putting it above God. I'm not, and I immediately repent and turn to the cross for forgiveness. (These are not thoughts that I want or indulge, they just pop up). I've been driving myself insane, my thoughts go at a thousand miles per minute and I can't make them quit. I believe it may be spiritual warfare: the reason I became a Christian, or at least was convinced that the tenants of it were true, was due to experiences of that sort (physically, not mentally as is the case now).

About a week ago I made plans with some friends to watch a movie. I had previously seen the movie and made a promise to God not to watch it again because of certain elements. Later I was reminded of that promise and then called to cancel. I remember mulling it over and in prayer told God that I would spend that reading my bible/praying/worshiping etc, and I felt Him say not to make promises, so I amended that thought and told God if nothing else came up I would stick with those plans. (It was as I was saying the prayer that God impressed upon me not to promise that: so I amended it in the same thought) Later I remember thinking to my self that no matter the circumstances I would probably just stat home and stick with that plan. A few days later I got a text saying they were watching a different movie so I could/would join them. I was immediately overjoyed: a night of relaxation that did not have me focusing on my guilt seemed just what I needed. However in the next thought was that I made a promise to God to spend THAT time with him. Please keep in my mind that my brain has had so many thoughts/prayers running through it that what I say next is completely true. I really cannot remember if when I went back later to revisit the issues if I had just been thinking about what I was going to do/may do/should do or if I was in prayer at that time and making that commitment to Him. I keep on trying to go back to that second time of thought on the issue and I keep on going back and forth on what I may have doing at the time because I just don't know. However I really feel it being impressed on me that if I do go I will be committing a deliberate sin and will face the consequences in hell, and/or having most/all earthly blessings taken away from me. Please note that spending times relaxing/with friends is not that big of a deal to me. I am more than willing to give one night up for God (as a Christian I know I must be ready to give my life). However, I cannot decide if my soul is what is truly as stake, or if it's just my guilt over doing anything right now taking over/something trying to take the peace and joy out of my life.

 

[Harry3142]

whit87-

You're getting entangled in legalism. And no less a person than St. Paul warned us that trying to obey laws, either those written by others or those which we ourselves come up with, will only lead to frustration:

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do - this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God - through Jesus Christ our Lord! (Romans 7:14-25a,NIV)

What St. Paul described is now called 'paradoxical intention'. We all have this quirk as part of our psyche, and it condemns us to fail at whatever we try to accomplish. There's even an old saying which describes it: "The harder you try, the faster you fail." IOW, if it doesn't get done naturally, it won't get done at all.

God knows of this quirk. That's one of the reasons why he knew that our salvation must be planned, and then carried out, by him. His own Son, Jesus Christ, our Lord and saviour, volunteered to be the perfect sacrifice of atonement, and it is solely through his atoning sacrifice that we have assurance of salvation, rather than its being through our obeying any set of laws:

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:19-26,NIV)

The righteousness which God demands of us is a righteousness which we cannot earn as a salary, or purchase as an asset. Instead, we must accept it in the same manner as a child accepts a gift from its parents. We have done nothing to earn it, and we do not deserve it, but God has chosen to give us the righteousness we need anyway.

And how do we repay him for this gift? We don't. In fact, in order for us to properly behave in the manner which God wants of us, we need another gift which God also gives us freely. And that gift is the indwelling of his Spirit. It is through the Spirit's subduing our sinful nature, and then implanting within us a totally new nature, that we become capable of living our lives in conformity with God's will. Since we can only accomplish what comes naturally to us, God has seen fit to implant a new nature within us. And it is via this new nature that we become 'in synch' with him:

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (Galatians 5:16-26,NIV)

The motivations which are 'the fruit of the Spirit' are our new nature as Christians. They are a gift from God, just as our salvation itself is a gift from God. It is when the motivations listed as 'the fruit of the Spirit' are the impetus for our actions that those actions have assurance of conforming to God's will. And their importance to all that we do is underscored by the words which immediately follow their listing: "Against such things there is no law." And those same motivations are to be used when dealing with yourself, as well as dealing with others.

God bless-

 

[singpeace]

whit87-

You're getting entangled in legalism. And no less a person than St. Paul warned us that trying to obey laws, either those written by others or those which we ourselves come up with, will only lead to frustration:

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do - this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God - through Jesus Christ our Lord! (Romans 7:14-25a,NIV)

What St. Paul described is now called 'paradoxical intention'. We all have this quirk as part of our psyche, and it condemns us to fail at whatever we try to accomplish. There's even an old saying which describes it: "The harder you try, the faster you fail." IOW, if it doesn't get done naturally, it won't get done at all.

God knows of this quirk. That's one of the reasons why he knew that our salvation must be planned, and then carried out, by him. His own Son, Jesus Christ, our Lord and saviour, volunteered to be the perfect sacrifice of atonement, and it is solely through his atoning sacrifice that we have assurance of salvation, rather than its being through our obeying any set of laws:

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:19-26,NIV)

The righteousness which God demands of us is a righteousness which we cannot earn as a salary, or purchase as an asset. Instead, we must accept it in the same manner as a child accepts a gift from its parents. We have done nothing to earn it, and we do not deserve it, but God has chosen to give us the righteousness we need anyway.

And how do we repay him for this gift? We don't. In fact, in order for us to properly behave in the manner which God wants of us, we need another gift which God also gives us freely. And that gift is the indwelling of his Spirit. It is through the Spirit's subduing our sinful nature, and then implanting within us a totally new nature, that we become capable of living our lives in conformity with God's will. Since we can only accomplish what comes naturally to us, God has seen fit to implant a new nature within us. And it is via this new nature that we become 'in synch' with him:

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (Galatians 5:16-26,NIV)

The motivations which are 'the fruit of the Spirit' are our new nature as Christians. They are a gift from God, just as our salvation itself is a gift from God. It is when the motivations listed as 'the fruit of the Spirit' are the impetus for our actions that those actions have assurance of conforming to God's will. And their importance to all that we do is underscored by the words which immediately follow their listing: "Against such things there is no law." And those same motivations are to be used when dealing with yourself, as well as dealing with others.

God bless-

AWESOME ANSWER!

 

[St_Worm2]

...a thought will come into my mind: asking, telling, or insisting that I'm putting it above God. I'm not, and I immediately repent and turn to the cross for forgiveness. (These are not thoughts that I want or indulge, they just pop up). I've been driving myself insane, my thoughts go at a thousand miles per minute and I can't make them quit. I believe it may be spiritual warfare:

Hi whit87! First off, welcome to CF .. I hope your time here is both enjoyable and spiritually profitable (for you and for us .. ).

That said, my first thought is that you are right to deal with the "thought" problems you're having by turning to God with them, but if you are not sinning (and you said you aren't), what is there to repent of and/or ask forgiveness for ..

Rather, why not just take the thought(s) captive to Christ (2 Corinthians 10:5) and let Him deal with them for you. You do not want to act against conscience, of course, but what you are experiencing does sound like you may be dealing with an attack from the enemy.

I had a similar problem when I was a young Christian. It was solved by filling my mind with God's Word so that It, rather than my wild thoughts, began to be what always came to mind .. I read and studied the Bible, I listened to preaching/teaching throughout the week on the radio (as well, of course, sermons at church), but the thing that helped me most of all was memorizing Scripture.

Patience and faith that God will fix this problem for you are important as well as this kind of problem is not usually fixed overnight!!

You continue:

About a week ago I made plans with some friends to watch a movie. I had previously seen the movie and made a promise to God not to watch it again because of certain elements. Later I was reminded of that promise and then called to cancel. I remember mulling it over and in prayer told God that I would spend that reading my bible/praying/worshiping etc, and I felt Him say not to make promises, so I amended that thought and told God if nothing else came up I would stick with those plans. (It was as I was saying the prayer that God impressed upon me not to promise that: so I amended it in the same thought) Later I remember thinking to my self that no matter the circumstances I would probably just stat home and stick with that plan. A few days later I got a text saying they were watching a different movie so I could/would join them. I was immediately overjoyed: a night of relaxation that did not have me focusing on my guilt seemed just what I needed. However in the next thought was that I made a promise to God to spend THAT time with him. Please keep in my mind that my brain has had so many thoughts/prayers running through it that what I say next is completely true. I really cannot remember if when I went back later to revisit the issues if I had just been thinking about what I was going to do/may do/should do or if I was in prayer at that time and making that commitment to Him. I keep on trying to go back to that second time of thought on the issue and I keep on going back and forth on what I may have doing at the time because I just don't know. However I really feel it being impressed on me that if I do go I will be committing a deliberate sin and will face the consequences in hell, and/or having most/all earthly blessings taken away from me. Please note that spending times relaxing/with friends is not that big of a deal to me. I am more than willing to give one night up for God (as a Christian I know I must be ready to give my life). However, I cannot decide if my soul is what is truly as stake, or if it's just my guilt over doing anything right now taking over/something trying to take the peace and joy out of my life.

It seems like you are over-thinking this. I don't know if these friends you watch the movies with are Christians or non-Christians, but especially if they are non-Christians, I think you need to go see the movie with them. They invited you to see the first movie and you told them the reason you couldn't go was because of a promise you made to God concerning that particular movie, right? But they obviously value your friendship above a movie and decided to change movies so you could join them, right?

So why can't you do both? IOW, can't you see the movie with your friends (which is clearly what you want to do) but also devote some special time to the Lord as well (granted, at another time). It seems like He might have had a hand in orchestrating how things went here, don't you think .. Perhaps He is giving you the opportunity to continue your witness and giving Him Glory ..

I would also like to address your belief that if you commit a sin, even intentionally, you could end of in Hell because of it. But let's leave that for another post, this is enough for now.

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - if you want to know how to get started memorizing Scripture, just PM me.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me,
has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life"
John 5:24​

 

[Bible2]

whit87 said in post 1:

I've been driving myself insane, my thoughts go at a thousand miles per minute and I can't make them quit.

God can make them quit if you ask him to help you, for he has given us a sound mind and peace (2 Timothy 1:7, John 14:27).

whit87 said in post 1:

I remember mulling it over and in prayer told God that I would spend that reading my bible/praying/worshiping etc, and I felt Him say not to make promises, so I amended that thought and told God if nothing else came up I would stick with those plans.

Well, something else came up. I.e., your friends chose a different movie to watch with them during that time.

whit87 said in post 1:

However in the next thought was that I made a promise to God to spend THAT time with him.

You didn't. For he said not to make that promise, and you amended it to include the possibility of something else coming up.

whit87 said in post 1:

I keep on trying to go back to that second time of thought on the issue and I keep on going back and forth on what I may have doing at the time because I just don't know.

Then all you have to do is ask God now what he wants you to do: see the different movie or not. It's that simple. Never worry about anything, but bring it to God in prayer right now (Philippians 4:6-7).

whit87 said in post 1:

However I really feel it being impressed on me that if I do go I will be committing a deliberate sin and will face the consequences in hell, and/or having most/all earthly blessings taken away from me.

Who has impressed that on you?

Ask God.

Matthew 11:28-30

 

[Peripatetic]

Hello, and welcome! Obsessive thoughts can be crippling and discouraging. You show true courage by coming here and sharing these challenges. Some people will just tell you to "stop thinking that way", but it isn't quite that simple, is it? I can relate to a certain extent, as you'll read below.

As others have said, too much concern about following rules is not healthy, and making vows is discouraged in the Bible. God is much more concerned about what's in our hearts much more than how each action is measured against some rule set.

My advice would be to try to separate the logical and rational side of your thought process (which is clearly there) from your obsessive thoughts. In other words, acknowledge that God isn't as concerned about these legal things as you are, and just manage them as part of who you are.

I struggle with obsessive thoughts about numbers and spacial things. One silly example is this: if I'm setting the volume on my TV, I am uncomfortable if the volume is not a whole number (whatever.5) and slightly uncomfortable if it's an odd number.

I realize that this thought process is not rational. Knowing that doesn't make it go away, but it helps to know in my mind that it doesn't really matter. That helped me to manage it much better. I won't go into detail here, but feel free to PM if you want to know more.

 

[theophilus40]

However recently (as I've tried to grow in my faith), I've begun experiencing classic symptoms of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, all in conjecture with my faith.

This site has a forum for people with OCD.

http://www.christianforums.com/f598/

That might be the best place for you to look for help. There might be people there who have had the same kind of experience you are having now and who have learned to cope with it.

 

[TheGuide]

"I've begun experiencing classic symptoms of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, all in conjecture with my faith. It seems like everything I do anything (watch a television show, take a payment at work: I'm paid partially on commission, spending time on social networking sights, or with friends, catching up on world events via cnn.com) , a thought will come into my mind: asking, telling, or insisting that I'm putting it above God. I'm not, and I immediately repent and turn to the cross for forgiveness."

God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. The guilt you feel is not your doing; you are in deceived mode. Give it to Jesus like he instructed and enjoy an abundant life (like he also instructed). It's not abundant life if you're in fear. Also, some rules are religious rules and not God's, many built on old testament principles under the Law of God. We're no longer under the law, we're under grace, which is why he sent Jesus to fulfill the law. Live your life and enjoy it, always giving care to true Christian principles laid out by Jesus himself. Read the new testament yourself, then read it again.

God bless you,

The Guide

 

[insurchoftruth]

A born again christian, would not do a planned, deliberate sin, because his heart or spirit, is born again, and has the divine nature of God in it. It is a new creation, perfect and unable to sin. The Holy Spirit is in our spirit, and therefore, our spirit does not want to sin, but wants to do, what is right.

I think that is one of the things, which shows if we really are born again. A born again christian, is not a person who does not sin, but is a person, who does not want to sin, and is trying not to sin. That desire comes from his/her born again spirit.
People which are not born again, can decide to sin deliberately, because they do not have the divine nature of God in them, and because they do not have the Holy Spirit in them, to make them want to do what is right.

 

[Peripatetic]

A born again christian, would not do a planned, deliberate sin, because his heart or spirit, is born again, and has the divine nature of God in it. It is a new creation, perfect and unable to sin. The Holy Spirit is in our spirit, and therefore, our spirit does not want to sin, but wants to do, what is right.

Ephesians 4:30 shows an alternate view on this position: "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice."

Even when we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, bitterness, anger, and other prideful emotions can lead us into sinful behaviors for a time - thus grieving the Holy Spirit. This is why Jesus told us to strive to enter through the narrow door (Luke 13:24). More on that below.

I think that is one of the things, which shows if we really are born again. A born again christian, is not a person who does not sin, but is a person, who does not want to sin, and is trying not to sin. That desire comes from his/her born again spirit.
People which are not born again, can decide to sin deliberately, because they do not have the divine nature of God in them, and because they do not have the Holy Spirit in them, to make them want to do what is right.

Unfortunately, the distinctions aren't usually that black and white. Non-Christians rarely "sin on purpose" either (except for sociopaths). Instead, their perspective is distorted in some way so that their actions are justified in their own minds. They hurt because the person deserves it. They steal because they need it. They commit adultery because their spouse wasn't The One after all.

The truth is: we Christians do the same things sometimes when we grieve the Holy Spirit. We aren't sinning on purpose, but we are inaccurately justifying sinful actions. Paul also describes this inner struggle in Romans 7:19, "For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing."

The Bible uses terms like race, press, strain, and push when describing how we should live our lives in the Holy Spirit. We wouldn't have to use so much effort if The Holy Spirit completely removed our sinful inclinations. However, the Holy Spirit does ensure that our motivation is ultimately for God's will, and that is what allows us to endure in this fight against worldly distractions, temptations, and distortions.