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- Thread starter True Science
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Why are you wasting people's time...there is no comparison so why invent one! You are just trying to get people to read YOU, who may merely think more highly of himself than he ought.
Your paper "proves" nothing of the sort. Make a point here so people may discuss it.
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If it were true I would rapidly accept it and change my view, but it should be simple...show from John what part is borrowed from or endorses the Book of Jubilees...show the material in the Book of Jubilees inferred
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TS I read your entire document already...when one posts on a DISCUSSION forum one must give something solid (or a question or at least somewhat supported opinion) that can be discussed. Until just now you had not done so.
Having read your paper in full I found your conclusion questionable and wanted you to post something with substance regarding your assertion so people could discuss it. Here is my OPINION.
In this fictional adaptation from Genesis, yes we see that the cause for rejoicing was in the “seed promise” (Genesis 3:15) that was being passed on through him (Abraham), but I believe what Jesus was talking about was simply Abraham’s looking forward to the day he would meet his Redeemer (which in fact he did in the plains of Mamre). And though I believe fully that Jesus was born at Tabernacles (and is Himself the Tabernacle not made with hands) the feast was not given to anyone until the children of Israel (two generations after Abraham), being part of that unique covenant given though Moses. Deuteronomy 5:3 tells us that this covenant was NOT given unto their fathers, of which Abe was one.
However, this does not mean Jesus was unaware of Jubilees and did not hold its regard in its proper place, but just that what is presented does not prove He “endorsed” it (especially as somehow having some sort of authority which of course you did not claim). In fact, I do not even think He was using it in reference here but you are of course entitled to your opinion. If it were supposed to be a quote He would have used the phrase "It is written" or "Is it not written" or "as written in the book of" or "by the Prophet" so and so, etc.
However here is one for you to consider….we know from Edersheim and many others that the phase “Behold the lamb…” was used by the High Priests of the 2nd Temple period when he had found the appropriate lamb for the sacrifice.
John the Baptist is recorded as having said “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world”. Remembering many believe John the B was raised as a Zadokite (possibly in Qumran) it is no wonder he would use this phrase, knowing full well the Testament of the Patriarchs (though pseudipigraphic) in which we read in the alleged Testament of Joseph:
“And I saw that from Judah was born a virgin wearing a linen garment, and from her was born a lamb without spot (a clear reference to an appropriate sacrificial lamb)…because of Him angels and men rejoiced, and all the land…these things shall come to pass…in the last days…the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world (a reference to the Lamb of Atonement), one who will save all the gentiles and Israel…His Kingdom shall be an everlasting Kingdom and shall not pass away (again linking this sacrificial lamb indicated in Isaiah 53 to the Son spoken of in Isaiah 9:6, 7)…”
Now his does not mean Jesus or even the gospel writer “endorsed” this text but only that this IS what John the B spoke concerning Him. And one cannot extrapolate using a book because of the use of a single word (like rejoiced) or even a phrase (like Behold the Lamb)...though we have no proof, it is quite possible the complete phrase may have been used even by the High Priests and the Testament includes this....
Having read your paper in full I found your conclusion questionable and wanted you to post something with substance regarding your assertion so people could discuss it. Here is my OPINION.
In this fictional adaptation from Genesis, yes we see that the cause for rejoicing was in the “seed promise” (Genesis 3:15) that was being passed on through him (Abraham), but I believe what Jesus was talking about was simply Abraham’s looking forward to the day he would meet his Redeemer (which in fact he did in the plains of Mamre). And though I believe fully that Jesus was born at Tabernacles (and is Himself the Tabernacle not made with hands) the feast was not given to anyone until the children of Israel (two generations after Abraham), being part of that unique covenant given though Moses. Deuteronomy 5:3 tells us that this covenant was NOT given unto their fathers, of which Abe was one.
However, this does not mean Jesus was unaware of Jubilees and did not hold its regard in its proper place, but just that what is presented does not prove He “endorsed” it (especially as somehow having some sort of authority which of course you did not claim). In fact, I do not even think He was using it in reference here but you are of course entitled to your opinion. If it were supposed to be a quote He would have used the phrase "It is written" or "Is it not written" or "as written in the book of" or "by the Prophet" so and so, etc.
However here is one for you to consider….we know from Edersheim and many others that the phase “Behold the lamb…” was used by the High Priests of the 2nd Temple period when he had found the appropriate lamb for the sacrifice.
John the Baptist is recorded as having said “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world”. Remembering many believe John the B was raised as a Zadokite (possibly in Qumran) it is no wonder he would use this phrase, knowing full well the Testament of the Patriarchs (though pseudipigraphic) in which we read in the alleged Testament of Joseph:
“And I saw that from Judah was born a virgin wearing a linen garment, and from her was born a lamb without spot (a clear reference to an appropriate sacrificial lamb)…because of Him angels and men rejoiced, and all the land…these things shall come to pass…in the last days…the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world (a reference to the Lamb of Atonement), one who will save all the gentiles and Israel…His Kingdom shall be an everlasting Kingdom and shall not pass away (again linking this sacrificial lamb indicated in Isaiah 53 to the Son spoken of in Isaiah 9:6, 7)…”
Now his does not mean Jesus or even the gospel writer “endorsed” this text but only that this IS what John the B spoke concerning Him. And one cannot extrapolate using a book because of the use of a single word (like rejoiced) or even a phrase (like Behold the Lamb)...though we have no proof, it is quite possible the complete phrase may have been used even by the High Priests and the Testament includes this....
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Meowzltov
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I don't know what to look for in those two whole chapters and I'm unwilling to DOWNLOAD an article (could be infected). Can you please post the verses succinctly that you believe supports your point? You could also copy and paste succinct parts of the article that articulate your point. Thanks.
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Sorry TS it just is not obvious and does not really demonstrate an endorsement...when Jesus quotes Deuteronomy or Isaiah (even if He does not mention their names) it is apparent this is an endorsement but your conclusion is a huge leap which either involves a lot of other thoughts we cannot see or else there is some degree of assumption based on your scholl of thought hermeneutic.
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