Deity = Possible?

[masterchiefy]

Is a "higher universal conscience" or God scientifically possible? A being above all the universe? Some people say that a high power is impossible while others say we have no proof to deny the existence of a deity or proof to support the idea. I wanna know that is it possible there could be a God. And along with that, could it be possible that there are souls and/or an afterlife.

 

[awitch]

Is a "higher universal conscience" or God scientifically possible? A being above all the universe? Some people say that a high power is impossible while others say we have no proof to deny the existence of a deity or proof to support the idea. I wanna know that is it possible there could be a God. And along with that, could it be possible that there are souls and/or an afterlife.

Well, we can't prove a negative - that's a logical fallacy. So I suppose you can't rule out the existence of god, in the same way you can't rule out the existence of the purple flying unicorn from Jupiter. The burden of proof lies with the one making the claims about divinity - and there is no empirical evidence for its existence. I have naught but my personal experiences which prove nothing. Only the natural universe is within the jurisdiction of science.

 

[Penumbra]

I don't think humanity has gathered enough scientific knowledge to determine whether a god is scientifically possible or not. I think philosophy presents more difficulties than science does for most concepts of God I've learned of actually.

From what I know about the body (through science), I find the idea of an afterlife to be very unlikely.

Though with no unshakable arguments against the idea of God or an afterlife, my stance is that both are possible, though I don't believe in either without a reason to, and that is something I don't have. I think if I had to speculate between the two, I think the existence of god is more likely than the existence of an afterlife, but I don't think either is very probable.

Well, we can't prove a negative - that's a logical fallacy.

I think it's possible to prove a negative in mathematics. (And I don't mean that as a pun. ) Like, you can prove that a solution has no answer, or prove a statement is untrue, and things along those lines.

-Lyn

 

[Völuspá]

The utter and complete strangeness of the universe is what gives me an open mind. But like awitch, I only have my personal experience, which I know proves nothing. Most of the time I walk a very fine line where I don't attempt to make a distinction between the mundane and the spiritual.. It's not possible for me to know if there is one and where it lies.

 

[awitch]

I think it's possible to prove a negative in mathematics. (And I don't mean that as a pun. ) Like, you can prove that a solution has no answer, or prove a statement is untrue, and things along those lines.

Good point - falsifiability is important in science, meaning you can actually demonstrate an assertion to be false through observation and experimentation. For example, the assertion, "It is raining outside" can be shown false by looking out the window and observing rain.

 

[Arthra]

Is a "higher universal conscience" or God scientifically possible? A being above all the universe? Some people say that a high power is impossible while others say we have no proof to deny the existence of a deity or proof to support the idea. I wanna know that is it possible there could be a God. And along with that, could it be possible that there are souls and/or an afterlife.

A problem occurs I think when you try to define God in the terms of our language and culture.. which today let's say is largely a materialistic culture.

So what I do is look at what we know about history and the Messengers of God to suggest that there is some influence or power.

If we consider say what would be the odds that a relatively unknown itinerant preacher would have an influence on future societies say greater than the Caesars? They would probably be astronomical.

What would be the odds that a relatively unknown and illiterate camel driver in Arabia have on the course of future history of the world? Again it would be astronomical against such a thing happening..

So what can these Messengers teach us about God?

What was the nature of the revelatory experience and what can we know about it?

As to the soul...

Have you experienced a consciousness from your early childhood? You know that all the cells in your body are constantly transforming and passing through it and can you explain that consciousness?

and have you ever experienced say something like a foreboding or warning of something that has yet to happen and it happens?

Have you ever had an experience when you knew exactly what someone else was experiencing even though you were say at a great distance?

If you can answer yes to some of these questions then you can begin to appreciate that you have something that is not easily understood yet by normal scientific methods.

The afterlife:

Another mystery... I can tell you I've had had some experiences sensing when someone is about to pass from this life.. A sort of feeling of love for them and a sense that they are beginning a journey into the spiritual plane but it is not something that you could easily duplicate and probably most would consider that to be a subjective thing yet I've experienced it.

- Art

 

[Saint Nihilo]

Is a "higher universal conscience" or God scientifically possible? A being above all the universe? Some people say that a high power is impossible while others say we have no proof to deny the existence of a deity or proof to support the idea. I wanna know that is it possible there could be a God. And along with that, could it be possible that there are souls and/or an afterlife.

Here is my opinion. The only way to acutally prove something true in the scientific sense is through the use of our physical senses. Our physical senses do not excede or "go beyond" the natural universe. Ecstatic and mystical experiences are usually explained easily with simple biology and psychiatry. Almost every definition of "god" contains something that is supernatural, same goes with the afterlife or the soul. So basically, when someone tries to use reason and science to "prove" the existence of something supernatural they are settting themselves up to fail. Our senses cannot experience something outside of the natural universe (i.e., supernatural) because our senses are part of this natural objective universe.

Most attempts to "prove" god or even rationalize the idea rely on a heavy dose of solipsism that are at best weak and at worse ignorant. Science cannot rationalize something that exists outside the natural order of existence, bound by its laws, because our senses that we use to understand and to explore are bound by the same laws.

So that kind of leaves a scientific explanation out of the question and (as mentioned above) leaves it the realm of speculation. Philosophy deals with the question with the classic (and now somewhat trite in my opinion) "arguments" for god's existence such as the teleological, the cosmological, etc. These can be read and refuted and re-argued over and over. There are a plethora of debates involving these arguments on youtube and other sites. The fact reamins that none of these arguments rely on scientific inquiry or hard evidence and so they fall a little flat in my book. The main arguments for god in common use today come from design (the teleological branch of theological speculation) and have created what some have called a god who fills in the gaps. It seems that whenever science cannot explain something (regarding the big bang, evolutionary gaps, etc.) then theologians jump to use god as an explanation. This is dangerous because as science goes further these gaps diminish. Christopher Hitchens once remarked that this leads "the heavens to get emptier every day."

So, as many many people have noticed, there is no argument for god's existence that is completely sound or scientific. It all comes down to whether or not a person is willing to accept something on faith alone. Could a god exist? Perhaps, but I highly doubt it after having went over the evidence pro and con.

As to comment about religious leaders, this is called the "call to authority" argument for god's existence. It doesn't really work because many great people who have changed the course of our species' path forward came from humble beginnings. Since Jesus was a poor carpenter's son (if he ever actually was a real person with a real message) and Mohammed was illiterate, that must mean they were divine to have changed our course so greatly, right? Not really. Mohammed's faith was spread mainly through conquest in the beginning. We can view Islam's success in light of great militiary might, not providence. Christianity also became the religion of a powerful empire and forced conversions through militiary force were common in the beginning. Entire countries were baptized into the faith. This argument is dangerous in my opinion because look at the success of certain streams of fascism or authoritarianism. Because of their power does this validate their leaders' wicked opinions on life? No, it doesn't. The mass spread of certain faiths and their influence on the world no more validate them than a long standing tyranny's call to its founder.

These are just my observations and opinions. To believe in a god or an afterlife require faith, a belief absent of physical evidence and scientific explanations. This doesn't work with me and I find it irrational, personally. Again, I think it has a lot to do with our solipsistic nature.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Is a "higher universal conscience" or God scientifically possible?

Not according to current scientific understanding.

I wanna know that is it possible there could be a God. And along with that, could it be possible that there are souls and/or an afterlife.

I personally see no reason to "rule in" these things as possibilities.

I don't believe in "ruling out" possibilities, but ruling them in where there is good reason to do so. For me, "possibility" means "I have good reason to think this could actually happen in reality", and not "This is something I can imagine happening".


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[sk8Joyful]

OP: "I wanna know - is it possible there could be a God. And
along with that, could it be possible that there are souls and/or an afterlife."

I personally see no reason to "rule in" these things as possibilities.

I don't believe in "ruling out" possibilities, but ruling them in where there is good reason to do so.

Without a doubt, you have already gotten your good reasons.

That you deny them, is not God's fault. - It is your responsAbility to Open your soul/mind and receive them, for your own blessings, as well as for helping... other people LOVE LIFE and enjoy it abundantly for this, in fact, is what GOD you created for.

As God/Jesus said: "I bring you life, and this abundantly..."

 

[dewaddict84]

Is a "higher universal conscience"... scientifically possible? A being above all the universe?

Yes, I'd say it's scientifically possible. In that a being could be out in crazy-space-we-haven't-discovered-yet and it's been initiating, guiding, or otherwise meddling with what we've come to know as reality. Much in the same way that a child plays with ants or someone launches a ball in a pachino machine. We may have "divine" knowledge to know that the ultimate fate of the ball is to land in a slot, but we don't know which slot. Nor does the child understand the pheromones the ants use to communicate. "Higher" does not mean better. And possible does mean probable.

But no, an omnipotent god is not scientifically or philosophically possible. There's the old tried and true "Can he create a rock so heavy even he cannot lift it?".

 

[Eudaimonist]

Without a doubt, you have already gotten your good reasons.

Have I? Not to my knowledge.

That you deny them

Deny what, precisely?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Mahammad]

The real question is!

Is it possible all what happen and in the universe can happen without a God?

For example:

the solar system

the percentage of oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen in the Air we breath

how the animals and trees are balanced in nature (if human did not Interfere)

The atom look like just like a Solar system or a sun,

 

[awitch]

The real question is!

Is it possible all what happen and in the universe can happen without a God?

For example:

the solar system

the percentage of oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen in the Air we breath

how the animals and trees are balanced in nature (if human did not Interfere)

The atom look like just like a Solar system or a sun,

Absolutely. Science provides a completely natural explanation for all of those things. The universe did not form according to our needs, we formed to meet the universe.

 

[Mahammad]

Absolutely. Science provides a completely natural explanation for all of those things. The universe did not form according to our needs, we formed to meet the universe.

Solar system, who made the system? Is it random?

The perfect percentage of the oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen in the Air is that random too? If the percentage goes higher the Air can burn?

Who made the Physical laws?

Its strange everything in universe is so random that we human can't even create something like it.
​

Can Science prove that all of that happened randomly and from nothing?


​

All life on earth happened randomly by accident everything, humans, tigers, horses.

but we human can’t even create a Mosquito.

 

[awitch]

Solar system, who made the system? Is it random?​

Those questions are beyond the scope of this thread, but you will find the answers in various books. See astronomy, biology, geology, cosmology, etc.
​

You've also provided a good example of an argument from personal incredulity.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Solar system, who made the system? Is it random?​

Yes. An amorphous dust cloud collapsed under its own gravity. Small density fluctuations lead to aggregations of matter: the Sun and the planets.

The perfect percentage of the oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen in the Air is that random too?

Yes and no: the initial atmosphere was, effectivel, random. But life has altered the atmosphere over the aeons, which is arguably a non-random event.

And I'd hardly call it 'perfect'.

If the percentage goes higher the Air can burn?

Yes: all it requires is a sufficient amount of oxygen. But why does it matter if air can burn or not?

Who made the Physical laws?

No-one.

Its strange everything in universe is so random that we human can't even create something like it.​

Indeed: we are tiny in size and limited in scope, and can't possibly manipulate things on the scales that the natural forces operate on (gravity affects entire stars and galaxies, while the strong force affects the very fundaments of matter).

Why should humans be able to do what nature does? I mean one day yeah, but not necessarily right now.
​

Can Science prove that all of that happened randomly

It can prove it beyond all reasonable doubt, yes.

and from nothing?

No one knows what, if anything, the universe is 'from'. It may be God, it may be a mundane phenomenon. But the fact remains that what happened after the universe formed is very well understood, and no part of it seems to involve deities.

​

All life on earth happened randomly by accident everything, humans, tigers, horses.

Yes.

but we human can’t even create a Mosquito.

No. What makes you think we should be able to? Mosquitoes, like all organisms, have been evolving for 4.5 billion years. Humans have only been around for a few hundred thousand. That's not nearly enough time to make our own complex organisms.

PS: sorry OP, but I had to respond to formy .

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Is a "higher universal conscience" or God scientifically possible? A being above all the universe?

Yes.

Some people say that a high power is impossible

I'd certainly like to see this mathematical disproof of theirs.

while others say we have no proof to deny the existence of a deity or proof to support the idea.

Yep.

I wanna know that is it possible there could be a God. And along with that, could it be possible that there are souls and/or an afterlife.

They're all certainly possible, but, as awitch said, they're only possible in the same way that it's possible that a chocolate teapot is orbiting Mars, or that gravity is caused by magic gravity gnomes.

They're possible, but there's absolutely no reason to consider them anything more than the fringes of epistemology.

 

[Wicked Willow]

And the sentient puddle said: "Look at the hole I reside in: it is formed exactly to fit me! It's a miracle!"

The thing is: with probability, it doesn't really matter how unlikely an event is - all that is necessary for it to happen is that it's possible at all.

Think of it like this: if you take a handful of salt and drop it on a plate, you create a pattern of crystals that is absolutely unique, and chances are that you'll never be able to recreate *exactly* this pattern. In other words, the likelihood of it happening exactly as it did are not very high - yet it happens without it being a miracle or a supernatural event.

 

[Wicked Willow]

Is it possible that there are things lying outside the reach of naturalistic observation and testing? Sure.
Yet that doesn't mean that we should substitute archaic myths as explanations for phenomena that can be and have been traced back to utterly naturalistic causes.

 

[Kutte]

When looking at the living world around us, we will recognize that there are many levels of consciousness. An ant, for instance, may think that only ant populations have the ability to communicate and be creative on purpose while lacking any awareness of other self-conscious beings capable of building giant cities, roads, and transportation methods.
In this regard, to assume that humans represent the highest self-conscious specie in the universe with abilities to do these things would be an act of ignorance.

Kutte