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Definitions of "Value" and "Earn"

Umaro

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These words get thrown around a lot here, so I'd like to take a thread to look in depth at how we evaluate these. On one side we have people saying workers pay is too low, and on the other we have people saying the workers are not working hard enough. We also have one side saying the super wealthy earned their income, while the other side says they did not. Clearly both sides can't be right, so let's actually talk about what we mean when we say "earn" and "value" in relation to salary.

First we need some historical bearings. The ability for information to travel faster than people was a true game changer in our society. When you only had radio and telephone, it was nearly impossible for a chain store to exist. Even the ones that did were usually completely locally managed. If you worked at a restaurant the money only had to be split between the workers there, the manager there, and cost to upkeep the business. However, once the internet and telephones were made more available, we were able to watch over much greater areas. A hundred years ago you could hope to be the leader of a town in some industry, then it moved to leader of a state, then a nation, and now it's global. Corporations now are global entities, which means you can't go somewhere else where they are less powerful to try to start a business. It also means that people can make the same amount of money for the same job.

A manager makes sure his workers are working and receives a higher wage for making the system efficient. It used to end here, but now we can have someone manage the managers, and someone manage those people. We keep giving them more money, but they are not adding any true "value" in most cases. If your job is to manage 5 managers, why are you paid millions while someone who manages 5 workers is only paid 40,000? Realistically it's the same job, but the wealth difference is highly unbalanced. It also just gets worse as technology gets better. If you only have to manage 5 robots, now you make millions + 40,000, and there's no real incentive to keep people employed instead. As these companies get bigger, they are just concentrating money in a very small minority. The CEO's work's "value" is no higher than a local manager, but he makes 500 times as much. Why not only 200 times as much?

The other issue America is running into is how we determine what you've "earned." Let's look at someone making burgers for minimum wage at McDonalds. If you make 20 combo meals an hour, you've made the company ~$100, but they only give you back 7.25. It used to be that the 100 of "wealth" you generated would get split between you, your manager, and the cost of upkeep. Now however, you get 7.25, the manager gets ~10, and the other $82.75( minus upkeep) is sent away to other higher ups that have never been to that store before. The CEO only gets paid because the worker "created" $100. The workers of course notice how unfair this is. If the CEO benefits enough from their labor to buy a private jet, why can't they benefit enough to buy health care or pay rent? The CEO and other higher ups then will tell the workers that "if you want to afford nice things, you have to work harder." They are clearly generating enough wealth to be paid a reasonable wage, and the owners are taking most of it away because the owners claim it was them who "earned" the wealth by giving the worker a job.

Of course, if it was this simple we would have changed things already. However, a huge portion of very outspoken people will defend this system, saying the free market will correct this imbalance. What they don't realize is that the free market has become severely outdated. When it was originally conceived a worker could leave if he was being cheated out of his fair share. However, now that we've outsourced so many jobs and now that computers are doing so many jobs for us we have a much greater availability of workers. If you are upset about your share, then when you quit the company will just replace you with someone who wont' complain, and will be able to do that nearly indefinitely.

Naturally if you can't get a decent paying job, you can't afford for your child to go to school. This is why you hear things about the middle class getting poorer. It's not that individuals are losing money so much as there are less families that are staying in their general wealth bracket. The corporations clearly are not going to fix this problem since it makes them lots of money, so it's the government's job to step in and instate a minimum wage, and to tax(federal only applies to future profits really) the super wealthy and give it to the poor. It's not so much that the poor are freeloading, but rather they are being given back what they earned. You have the right to make a profit, but you don't have the right to take away others profits.
 

chaz345

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We also have one side saying the super wealthy earned their income, while the other side says they did not.

Well we're going to need to define "super wealthy"too. Because to many that term would apply to anyone with a net worth over a million and yet the facts laid out in The Millionaire Next Door clearly show that the overwhelming majority of people in that category did earn their money.

If we're talking about the really super rich, the one's that have had huge amounts of money in their family for generations, then yeah the term "earn" probably doesn't apply. But there's still no concept in the US Constitution that allows for the taking of their money simply because they have so much more than everyone else.
 
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lordbt

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A manager makes sure his workers are working and receives a higher wage for making the system efficient. It used to end here, but now we can have someone manage the managers, and someone manage those people. We keep giving them more money, but they are not adding any true "value" in most cases. If your job is to manage 5 managers, why are you paid millions while someone who manages 5 workers is only paid 40,000?
This is where the concept 'value' come in. The reason the first group of managers get paid more is because they are deemed to be of greater 'value' to the company or the person writing the check. While the values of the two different groups of managers may seem equal to you, you dont get to make that call. That value judgement belongs to those running the show. What value you place on a person or object is likely to be different from the value I would plsce upon it. In a free society, we get to determine our own values and act upon them as wee see fit.
The other issue America is running into is how we determine what you've "earned." Let's look at someone making burgers for minimum wage at McDonalds. If you make 20 combo meals an hour, you've made the company ~$100, but they only give you back 7.25. It used to be that the 100 of "wealth" you generated would get split between you, your manager, and the cost of upkeep. Now however, you get 7.25, the manager gets ~10, and the other $82.75( minus upkeep) is sent away to other higher ups that have never been to that store before.
Not exactly. One worker on his own cannot generate 20 combo meals on his own. You need an employee to work the window, one on the fry station, one on the grill, one to manage, one on drive through, and one to clean up afterwards. Then you have the cost of the products themselves--the beef, the buns, the potatoes, the Pepsi, the packaging, the lease, the taxes, the advertising and so on. What you also dont factor in is the compensation for risk that goes to the owner of the business. Were it not for the CEO, there would be no company. No company, no place for these people to work.
If the CEO benefits enough from their labor to buy a private jet, why can't they benefit enough to buy health care or pay rent? The CEO and other higher ups then will tell the workers that "if you want to afford nice things, you have to work harder." They are clearly generating enough wealth to be paid a reasonable wage, and the owners are taking most of it away because the owners claim it was them who "earned" the wealth by giving the worker a job.
Well, here you have the makings of your own business model. If you want a business to run this way, open one up yourself. If you dont want to do that, then you have to live by the rules of those who did.

Of course, if it was this simple we would have changed things already. However, a huge portion of very outspoken people will defend this system, saying the free market will correct this imbalance. What they don't realize is that the free market has become severely outdated. When it was originally conceived a worker could leave if he was being cheated out of his fair share. However, now that we've outsourced so many jobs and now that computers are doing so many jobs for us we have a much greater availability of workers. If you are upset about your share, then when you quit the company will just replace you with someone who wont' complain, and will be able to do that nearly indefinitely.
The market is not outdated, and a free market is not 'conceived.' It just is. We do not have a free market capitalist system here in the US. We have a highly regulated market that has been distorted by government intervention. Many of the problems you see are the result of this intervention, not the free market.
 
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kermit

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I was watching the news this weekend and I saw that some guy made $4B on hedge funds. Now, while I don't begrudge him his wealth I can't help but wonder by what definition of "earn" did he earn that money and by what definition of "value" did he add value to our society.
 
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Fantine

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A strong middle-class benefits everyone. There are only so many Iphones, Ipads, home entertainment systems, cars, etc. that a small percentage of wealthy families can own.

The key to corporate success is creating products that can be afforded by many people, driving sales and profits.

But without a strong middle class, those sales won't exist.

By shipping millions of jobs to China, Mexico, and India these corporations are shrinking the middle class (because they sure as heck aren't paying middle class wages in those countries.) They don't realize that they are strangling their own growth with their shortsightedness.
 
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TheNewWorldMan

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The Libertarian/capitalist view: whatever makes the rich richer goes. One hand washes the other. Once you get ahold of money, it's yours, even if you had to dig some holes out in the desert to get ahold of it. Money washes away your sins.
 
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kermit

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A strong middle-class benefits everyone. There are only so many Iphones, Ipads, home entertainment systems, cars, etc. that a small percentage of wealthy families can own.

The key to corporate success is creating products that can be afforded by many people, driving sales and profits.

But without a strong middle class, those sales won't exist.

By shipping millions of jobs to China, Mexico, and India these corporations are shrinking the middle class (because they sure as heck aren't paying middle class wages in those countries.) They don't realize that they are strangling their own growth with their shortsightedness.
Henry Ford discovered the very thing you describe. The libertarians of the day told him he'd fail every time he gave his employees a raise. Every time he did his business grew.
 
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Umaro

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@lordbt

The market system is most certainly something that was conceived. Humans were not born with the innate ability to use money and whatnot. It's just as much an invention as democracy or the light bulb.

Also, you responded to my post by saying that I don't get to chose the value, the people at the top do. Why does anyone get to chose their own paycheck? Didn't people heckle the government when a few politicians voted to raise their paychecks (wages which were under a million a year I might add.)

You can't just say that I'm wrong about determining value. How about you use some specific examples to demonstrate the differences between a job that pays a few million annually and one that pays 40,000 annually? Can you demonstrate the "earning" to be that significantly different?
 
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TerranceL

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I was watching the news this weekend and I saw that some guy made $4B on hedge funds. Now, while I don't begrudge him his wealth I can't help but wonder by what definition of "earn" did he earn that money and by what definition of "value" did he add value to our society.
I'd be willing to bet he owns a business.

His value is employing people.
 
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TheNewWorldMan

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Also, you responded to my post by saying that I don't get to chose the value, the people at the top do. Why does anyone get to chose their own paycheck? Didn't people heckle the government when a few politicians voted to raise their paychecks (wages which were under a million a year I might add.)

You forget that in the eyes of lordbt, there's one standard for the elite, and quite another for us serfs.

The Objectivist creed is that rights are directly proportional to income, and responsibilities inversely proportional to income.

So if a poor person takes a loaf of bread, hey, he's a thief.

If a rich person buys politicians and tilts the system to line his pockets, he's an astute businessman.

See the difference? If you're rich, one hand washes the other.
 
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Zlex

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Why does anyone get to chose their own paycheck? Didn't people heckle the government when a few politicians voted to raise their paychecks (wages which were under a million a year I might add.)

You can't just say that I'm wrong about determining value. How about you use some specific examples to demonstrate the differences between a job that pays a few million annually and one that pays 40,000 annually? Can you demonstrate the "earning" to be that significantly different?

A] Effort made risk-free gets a risk-discounted but positive return, as guaranteed wages. Proletariat: laboring under a risk free, agreed upon/guaranteed fixed rate of Return On Investment of effort as wages. i.e. 7.50/hr for putting the burger in the bag. If a member of the Bourgeoisie accepts the value from the worker without coughing up the guaranteed rate of return on investment of effort as wages, the virtuous Prole has a cause for action, he's been stiffed.

B] Effort made at risk gets an indeterminate rate of return, both in magnitude and sign. Bourgeoisie: laboring under an at-risk, non guaranteed rate of Return on Investment of effort. No guaranteed rate of return on investment of effort. Could be high, could be low, could be negative.

The real distinction shouldn't be about the 'capital', it is about the risk model under which effort is made.

Those are two fundamentally different models of participation in our economies. Ultimately, no A] without B], though there can be B] without A]. I am an example, self-employed. Even government participation is ultimately based on taxation/borrowing from (A] + B]) excess value.

Who guarantees A]'s rate of return as wages? Only B].

Who guarantees B]'s rate of return? Nobody.

Who does the government tax/borrow from? A] + B] plus external/foreign investors. Without B]. no A].

Without B], no (A] + B]) excess value for government to tax/borrow from.

External/foreign models might employ force, slavery. In theory, we don't. At least, not until we insist that B] continue to participate in our economies at a rate of return that pleases the schadenfreude sensibilities of A].

Value does not fall from the sky, unabetted, nor is it largely laying on the ground waiting to be effortlessly scooped up. Value is inevitably the crass, warm afterglow left over from the creative exertion of actual human beings. There are no emperors of value in a free society, we are all free to value things however we wish, including products, labor, effort, and risk.

If you think sticking burgers in a bag is worth much, much more than 7 dollars/hr, then go into the market and attempt to sell that value for more. "I will stick burgers in a bag for 100 dollars/hr." Folks will either buy it, or not. Just like folks will either buy a burger for 20 dollars or not. There is no emperor of value, who decrees what is worth what, only us, living in freedom.
 
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wpiman2

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Value; what you are willing to give someone for a good or service; cash or in kind....

Earn; what someone was willing to give to you for a service or good; cash or in kind..


Problem is-- government is allowed to steal from the people and then give out payments to their cronies. Those are zero sum games where someone looses.


Hedge fund managers may invest in a company which did not exist prior. That company may have value that previously didn't exist. There were no losers in that transaction.
 
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KarateCowboy

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Let's look at someone making burgers for minimum wage at McDonalds. If you make 20 combo meals an hour, you've made the company ~$100, but they only give you back 7.25. It used to be that the 100 of "wealth" you generated would get split between you, your manager, and the cost of upkeep. Now however, you get 7.25, the manager gets ~10, and the other $82.75( minus upkeep) is sent away to other higher ups that have never been to that store before.
Are you sure about this? To make one typical meal you need to buy:


  1. bread
  2. meat
  3. ketchup
  4. mustard
  5. cheese
  6. pickles
  7. onions
  8. potatoes for frying
  9. vegetable oil
  10. soda syrup
  11. butter
As far as equipment for the burger you need:

  1. grill
  2. spatula for flipping burger patty
  3. knife
  4. fork for pickles
  5. fork for onions
  6. butter roller for buttering the bun
  7. bun toaster
  8. pans for onions
  9. pans for pickles
  10. ketchup dispenser
  11. mustard dispenser
  12. grill cleaning utensils
  13. container for cheese
  14. walk in freezer
  15. thermometer
for soda:

  1. paper cups
  2. lids
  3. straws
  4. syrup rack
  5. soda mixer
  6. dispenser
for fries:

  1. deep frier
  2. baskets
  3. freezer
  4. salt sprinkler
  5. heat lamp
  6. tray
  7. fry boxes
Then you put it all in a paper bag.

There is insurance for all that stuff, the depreciation of the big purchases, saving for replacements, accounting overhead, paying the shippers, inventory management systems, insurance for the restaurant building, taxes on income, uniforms, safety inspections, getting the parking lot shoveled in winter, etc, etc, etc. Not saying your end conclusion is valid or invalid, but you need to make a more accurate assessment of the picture.

It's easy to focus in on the tiny amount of executives at the level of managing HP & Apple or even McDonald's. But what about the millions that aren't swimming in buckets of money? If you took each of the million dollars that are paid to an uberexecutive and redistributed it, each person would have a whole extra $2 or something. Wow.
 
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TerranceL

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kermit

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Why would it?
That's the point. You state that if he made $1B the value he adds to society is no different than the value he adds when he makes $4B. By some definitions that means he stole $3B, maybe more.
 
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kermit

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Are you sure about this? To make one typical meal you need to buy:


  1. bread
  2. meat
  3. ketchup
  4. mustard
  5. cheese
  6. pickles
  7. onions
  8. potatoes for frying
  9. vegetable oil
  10. soda syrup
  11. butter
As far as equipment for the burger you need:

  1. grill
  2. spatula for flipping burger patty
  3. knife
  4. fork for pickles
  5. fork for onions
  6. butter roller for buttering the bun
  7. bun toaster
  8. pans for onions
  9. pans for pickles
  10. ketchup dispenser
  11. mustard dispenser
  12. grill cleaning utensils
  13. container for cheese
  14. walk in freezer
  15. thermometer
for soda:

  1. paper cups
  2. lids
  3. straws
  4. syrup rack
  5. soda mixer
  6. dispenser
for fries:

  1. deep frier
  2. baskets
  3. freezer
  4. salt sprinkler
  5. heat lamp
  6. tray
  7. fry boxes
Then you put it all in a paper bag.

There is insurance for all that stuff, the depreciation of the big purchases, saving for replacements, accounting overhead, paying the shippers, inventory management systems, insurance for the restaurant building, taxes on income, uniforms, safety inspections, getting the parking lot shoveled in winter, etc, etc, etc. Not saying your end conclusion is valid or invalid, but you need to make a more accurate assessment of the picture.

It's easy to focus in on the tiny amount of executives at the level of managing HP & Apple or even McDonald's. But what about the millions that aren't swimming in buckets of money? If you took each of the million dollars that are paid to an uberexecutive and redistributed it, each person would have a whole extra $2 or something. Wow.
So are you claiming that only owners of businesses add value? I have saved my company literally millions of dollars, do I not add value since I don't own the building I work in?
 
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