Definition of Ape

[BigDug]

Did you have a point, or are you just letting off some steam?

No, IM really making a point. I really do think that any 5 year old can easily tell that there are large distinct, even huge differences between humans and apes. I also do think that people can overcomplicate things and in so doing obscure the simple understanding of something.

This argument is fallacious: "If you can't understand what I understand, then you are too dumb to understand". That's not an argument, that's just an ad hominem.

No I never said that, I just think that there are different mindsets, I think that its just a way of thinking that is alien to mine. Maybe its me that has a wrong way of thinking, I imagine that we will see the definitive answer after we die.

I was merely pointing out the incredibly divergent, mutually exclusive worldviews of the creationist/evolutionist.

 

[Bombila]

A five year old can also immediately see the similarities between other apes and humans, whereas s/he would be far less likely to see a lot of similarities between a porcupine and a human.

The vehemence with which creationists deny our being one species of ape amazes me. BigDug has it right - the mindsets are alien to each other. It is as plain to me as to any five year old that chimps, orangutangs, gorillas have a lot in common with humans, in appearance and in behaviours. It is as plain to me as the obvious fact that my little tabby has a lot in common with the tiger, although the tiger is huge, striped very differently, and has round ears (these are traits very difficult for domestic cat breeders to mimic, although they have tried very hard).

Of course we are different from gorillas, as gorillas are different from chimps, and orangutangs are different from bonobos. But while creationists seem to have no trouble seeing the similarities and differences between chimps and gorillas, they appear blind to the inclusion of humans in this subset of animals.

 

[Inan3]

It is also not true that we are the most dominating: bacteria are far more intrusive and all-encompassing that we humans. They live in the most extreme conditions found on Earth, whereas humans are restricted to a small range of environments.

Not true! Domination is not only intrusion but exercising control. Humans are able to intelligently define their enemy, decide how to conquer or control it, and then put that plan of action into practice. Whereas bacteria do not even consider this quest. They just exist to exist.

You know that humans are the highest form, but you refuse to admit it. It's called denial because then you would have to change your thinking in other ways. You may not admit it to us but you know it is so and we know you know it is true. So no amount of denying it will make us believe you don't.

What is sad is that the scriptures say as a man thinketh in his heart so is he. The more that you think you are slime or an ape the more you will become like them.

 

[plindboe]

There are about 10 times more bacterial cells in the human digestive system than the number of cells the human body consists of. How can people think we're ruling this planet when there are all these organisms taking a free ride in our bodies letting us do all the hard work? Who's the boss, the rider or the horse?

We wouldn't last long without these organisms either, we depend on them.

We can't synthesize many essential chemicals ourselves, hence the need for vitamins and essential amino acids. Some bacteria can produce all these things themselves, and can grow on the simplest substrates, that's what I call perfect organisms.

It only takes a bit of research into reality to realize that we're not as perfect and special as we often like to think we are. Alas, some people lack the humility to recognize this fact. Funny how followers of a religion that considers pride sinful consider themselves to be made in the image of God, and consider everything else on the planet vastly inferior.

Peter

 

[BigDug]

Alas, some people lack the humility to recognize this fact. Funny how followers of a religion that considers pride sinful consider themselves to be made in the image of God, and consider everything else on the planet vastly inferior.

I dont really want to get into a religious discussion about the meaning of humility, but yes, your correct, the Biblical definition of humility has nothing to do with equating ourselves with pond scum, worms and other slime. If you want to, that is your perogative, but you can leave me out of that.

Suffice it to say that the Christian/creationist worldview is almost diametrically opposed to your own, we believe that if we need a creature, such as our need for bacteria, then they have been created and put on the earth directly for our benefit and to satisfy our needs and desires.

The fact that bad bacteria and virus exist is not due to their dominance, but due to the fact of the curse which resulted from the fall of man, but even in that there is no dominance because Jesus taught dominance and power of diseases and sickness. But without Jesus, a literalist Christian such as myself will conclude that you do not truly dominate creation, as you would still be subject to the serpent.

Now the discussion is largely digressing into a theology debate,....

 

[peteos]

The intelligence of humans far surpasses that of the any animal. We are clearly dominant over other animals in thinking, modifying our environment, and kicking butt. Sure, we aren't too good if we fall of a boat nacked in a pool of great white sharks, or if we attempt to live at the bottom of the ocean near a mid Atlantic volcanic hot spot, but in most other climates we have been able to adapt quite nicely.

That said, we clearly share a common ancestor with Chimpanzees.

So what of it? What does that take away from us? If God declared we were made in His image, then we ARE special, regardless of HOW we were created. What was it about us that made us in His image in the first place, two hands and two feet? These we share with the chimps anyway. Was it our soul? Our intelligence? Our spiritual relation to God? All these things we have and do not share with apes, despite our origins. We are special no matter how you look at it, whether you believe God entered history and revealed himself to us or not. We have cities, internet, hospitals and jets. We have these things regardless if whether we share a history and body plan to clearly shows a common ancestor from cousin species.

 

[Split Rock]

I think any 5 year old could tell you the vast differences between apes and humans.

Maybe we need a 5 year old here then, since none of you can give us a definition of "ape" that distinguishes us from them.

The issue of humans being 'higher life forms' is interesting and true, we are clearly the most complex, dominating life-form on earth.

Explain how we are the "most complex."

The creationist see humans as coming directly from the image of God

The evolutionist sees humans coming from slime on a rock.

"From Goo to the Zoo to You!"

No, IM really making a point. I really do think that any 5 year old can easily tell that there are large distinct, even huge differences between humans and apes.

"Huge differences?" Then why can't you guys answer the question before you?

The fact that bad bacteria and virus exist is not due to their dominance, but due to the fact of the curse which resulted from the fall of man, but even in that there is no dominance because Jesus taught dominance and power of diseases and sickness.

Creationist answer #1: "The Fall."
Creationist answer #2: "The Curse."

Any mechanisms for these effects? Can you explain just how "The Curse" turned harmless bacteria into pathogens?

But without Jesus, a literalist Christian such as myself will conclude that you do not truly dominate creation, as you would still be subject to the serpent.

A talking serpent, don't forget. Many Creationists here claim that this talking serpent "rules" our planet. Do you disagree?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

No, IM really making a point. I really do think that any 5 year old can easily tell that there are large distinct, even huge differences between humans and apes. I also do think that people can overcomplicate things and in so doing obscure the simple understanding of something.

Do you think a 5-year-old would be able to instantly realise that these two animals are intimately related?

See, the problem with 5-year-olds, is that their five years old. Why would you consult one about anything?

No I never said that, I just think that there are different mindsets, I think that its just a way of thinking that is alien to mine. Maybe its me that has a wrong way of thinking, I imagine that we will see the definitive answer after we die.

I was merely pointing out the incredibly divergent, mutually exclusive worldviews of the creationist/evolutionist.

Fortunately, our worldview is evidenced by the world. Yours? Rooted in Bronze-Age mythology. Guess which one an independant judicator would favour...

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Not true! Domination is not only intrusion but exercising control. Humans are able to intelligently define their enemy, decide how to conquer or control it, and then put that plan of action into practice.

Many thousands of animals do that. Every predator and every prey has this ability.

Whereas bacteria do not even consider this quest. They just exist to exist.

Pray tell, how do you know this?

You know that humans are the highest form, but you refuse to admit it.

Please tell me how you tapped into my mind and found out my innermost thoughts. Last time I checked, I considered myself one varient of Ape, a subspecies of Monkey, a tool-weilding, pattern-recognising, self-perpetuating pattern like any other on this planet.
Inan3, please do not be so arrogant as to assume you know what other people are thinking. It may come as a shock to you, but you may be wrong.

It's called denial because then you would have to change your thinking in other ways. You may not admit it to us but you know it is so and we know you know it is true. So no amount of denying it will make us believe you don't.

You know humans are not the highest form of life, but you refuse to admit it. You refuse to embrace your humble origins. It's called denial because then you would have to change your thinking in other ways. You may not admit it to us but you know it is so and we know you know it is true.

Wow, look at that, I was right all along! You really are an Evolutionist!

What is sad is that the scriptures say as a man thinketh in his heart so is he. The more that you think you are slime or an ape the more you will become like them.

Since I do not believe the Bible to be anything more than text, I fail to see your point.

 

[TheOutsider]

I think any 5 year old could tell you the vast differences between apes and humans. I think your mental acrobatics with strict taxonomic guidleines is going to prevent you from seeing the obvious. While I always appreciate the scientific mind, just obscuring simplicity with an appeal to science is anti-intelligent in my opinion. IN this sense, generally speaking, the more educated one becomes, the more of a fool they can become.

I gave a list of differences between man and other apes: larger craniums, have a better grasp of language (sometimes), walk more upright, thinner hair/fur, larger than most in size, and hands that are better at grasping tools. Metherion added baculum. After those, we are extremely similar. If you can't see the similarities, maybe you can find a 5 year old to explain it to you.

 

[TheOutsider]

"From Goo to the Zoo to You!"

I've always hated that phrase. It's nothing but an appeal to emotion. Specifically pride, which is one of the Seven Deadly Sins.

 

[Loudmouth]

Anyone who thinks humans aren't apes has never been to a sports bar.

That made me laugh. And you are right. When a chimp is agitated he will throw his hands over his head and start yelling. What happens when the home team scores a touchdown?

I don't know how many people have had the chance to actually be around chimps or gorillas. I did have a chance and the best way to describe the experience is "unnerving". If you ever lock eyes with a chimp you will quickly see a mind that ticks a lot like yours.

 

[Loudmouth]

I've always hated that phrase. It's nothing but an appeal to emotion. Specifically pride, which is one of the Seven Deadly Sins.

I have tried (unsuccessfully) to popularize the term "Mud to Man by Magic" as the evolutionist comeback.

 

[TheOutsider]

I have tried (unsuccessfully) to popularize the term "Mud to Man by Magic" as the evolutionist comeback.

LOL. Brilliant! I'll have to remember that one.

 

[LittleNipper]

I am splitting this off from another thread.

Animals have no awareness of a bigger picture. They exist, they eat, they procreate, they have mobility. Amimals are basic to environmental processes, but they do not try to understand why the environment.is as it is. Animals do not pretend to know anything.

An ape is a knuckle dragger.

 

[Inan3]

Many thousands of animals do that. Every predator and every prey has this ability.

Not even close to humans and you know it!

 

[Aron-Ra]

You know that humans are the highest form, but you refuse to admit it. It's called denial because then you would have to change your thinking in other ways. You may not admit it to us but you know it is so and we know you know it is true. So no amount of denying it will make us believe you don't.

An interesting notion; "higher". But I think it is you who needs to change your thinking. Because I don't think you even have a unit of measure. What does your scale look like?

Tell me, is a dolphin "higher" than a parrot? Is an elephant "higher" than a horse? Is a snake "higher" than a lizard? Is a wolf "higher" than any dog? Or can there be dogs which are higher than wolves?

See, I don't state things as fact if they can't be verified somehow. But apparently you do. Because if you can say that one thing is definitely higher than anything else, then you must certainly be able to say exactly how much higher other apes are compared to humans. If you can't do that, if you can't quantify it to prove the point, then you can't claim it either.

What is sad is that the scriptures say as a man thinketh in his heart so is he. The more that you think you are slime or an ape the more you will become like them.

You are an ape by definition, and it doesn't matter how much you try to deny that.

Just to clarify; an "animal" is [FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]any organic (Carbon-based) replicative RNA/DNA protein organism: [/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif](a) consisting of multiple diploid cells which each contain a nucleus; [/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif](b) which perform chemical reactions and acheive homeostasis;[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif](c) who's gammete cells have a posterior flagella; [/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif](d) which must ingest and digest other organisms in a digestive tract in order to sustain themselves.[/FONT]

The simpler definition, (which means exactly the same thing) is "any member of the clade, Metazoa".

Now, to define what an ape is, you first have to start with the definition of "animal" and add to that all the definitions applicable to every other clade humans evidently evolved from -right up to the complete definition of what an Old World monkey is. Then you add to that the specifics which identify all apes as a subset of the clade/infraorder, Catarrhini, and then further define subsets within "apes" themselves, like "great apes" for example.

Of course the simplest definition for apes is "any member of the clade/superfamily "Hominoidea". That word literally means "humanoid", and of course includes humans.

But if you really need a more unnecessarily complicated definition, (which means exactly the same thing) then an ape is a subset of Catarrhine primates which have reduced oflactory senses compared to all other primates, but which are all capable of full brachiation, and have a broader chest, and greater tendancy toward bipedalism than all other primate groups. Apes can be further identified by individually distinct fingerprints, and a unique pattern of dentition, being 2 incisors, 1 canine, 2 premolars, and 3 molars in each quarter of the mouth. In most cases, the canine is reduced, almost useless as a cynodont tooth. And the molars are also unique in all the animal kingdom. Every ape has them, and only apes have them. Each molar comes to five points interrupted by a Y-shaped crevasse. If you want to know what that looks like, go to a mirror and open your mouth real wide.

There are myriad other distinctions unique to apes which all apply to humans as well, including a genetic mutation rendering all of us unable to synthesize vitamin D3 or vitamin C. When you look at the total collective of all apes, extant or extinct, and attempt to categorize them, you'll inevitably end up with a string of traits we share in common with them. In short, it is impossible to list all the characters shared by all apes in common without describing humans at the same time. In fact, if you try to list all the traits distinguising Old World monkeys from other monkeys, or indicative of monkeys in general as compared to all other primates, or all other mammals etc., you'll inevitably end up describing humans again. Why is that? Well as usual, evolution explains it. But creationism can't explain anything.

 

[TheOutsider]

Animals have no awareness of a bigger picture.

How do you know this? Can you read minds? Are you Dr. Doolittle? I'd say that dolphins, gorillas, chimpanzees, and bonobos are all very intelligent animals and don't seem to have problems with awareness of the world around them.

 

[Aron-Ra]

Animals have no awareness of a bigger picture.

How could you know that?

An ape is a knuckle dragger.

Only chimpanzees and gorillas. They evidently evolved that way after our common ancestor. Most other apes are, or were, predominantly bi-pedal.

 

[Loudmouth]

Not even close to humans and you know it!

Humans can't run nearly as fast as cheetahs. Humans can't swim nearly as fast as dolphins. We can't reproduce as quickly as rabbits. We can't smell as well as dogs. We can't see as well as eagles. We are the weakest of all the great apes.

So how in the world can you claim that we are the "highest"?