Definition of Ape

[TheOutsider]

I am splitting this off from another thread.

Two things I would like Creationists to define:
1) Animal
2) Ape

I would also like you to explain why humans do not fall in either category. Something other than "The Bible says so," please.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Animal: any eukaryote that isn't a fungus, a plant, a protist, a chromalveolates, or a human.
Ape: exactly what biologists call it minus humans.

Technically, this fulfills your request

They can define it, they just can rationalise why they omit humans from the set of animals, or the set of apes.

Humans fulfill the criteria needed to be considered apes. They also have the genotype and phenotype consistent with the proto-primate common to all other monkeys.

 

[TheOutsider]

They can define it, they just can rationalise why they omit humans from the set of animals, or the set of apes.

I fully expect someone to invoke "souls/consciousness" and then give no evidence that humans have them but other apes don't.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I fully expect someone to invoke "souls/consciousness" and then give no evidence that humans have them but other apes don't.

Yes, I've heard that too. They generally bumble along with something about superior intellect and so on.

 

[TheOutsider]

Yes, I've heard that too. They generally bumble along with something about superior intellect and so on.

That's one of the few differences I can actually think of. We are smarter/have larger craniums, have a better grasp of language (sometimes), walk more upright, thinner hair/fur, larger than most in size, and hands that are better at grasping tools. Similarities: everything else.

 

[Inan3]

Two things I would like you to define:
1) Animal
2) Ape

I would also like you to explain why humans do not fall in either category. Something other than "The Bible says so," please.

Firstly, the word animal or animals is not in the KJV of the Bible which I use.

And I thought humans did fall into the animal category.

I like this definition from Wikipedia

Animals are a major group of multicellularorganisms that feed by consuming material from other living things. Their body plan becomes fixed as they develop, usually early on in their development as embryos, although some undergo a process of metamorphosis later on in their life. Most animals are motile - can move spontaneously and independently.

They have appetites and instincts.

Humans are the highest form of animals.

It's interesting that humans and not other animals can define the very differences and categories that we are talking about.

Also, I don't think there are any other animals out there who even care. None asking anyone to "define" anything.

Humans have an unsatiable desire to gain knowledge for more than just survival. They want to know how and why for more than just to gain a goodie to eat.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Firstly, the word animal or animals is not in the KJV of the Bible which I use.

And I thought humans did fall into the animal category.

I like this definition from Wikipedia

Animals are a major group of multicellularorganisms that feed by consuming material from other living things. Their body plan becomes fixed as they develop, usually early on in their development as embryos, although some undergo a process of metamorphosis later on in their life. Most animals are motile - can move spontaneously and independently.

They have appetites and instincts.

I agree with you up to here.

Humans are the highest form of animals.

What do you mean by 'highest', and why do you think we are?

It's interesting that humans and not other animals can define the very differences and categories that we are talking about.

Also, I don't think there are any other animals out there who even care. None asking anyone to "define" anything.

While this makes us unique amongst animals, it doesn't make us 'higher', 'special', or even non-animals.

Humans have an unsatiable desire to gain knowledge for more than just survival. They want to know how and why for more than just to gain a goodie to eat.

This is not limited to just humans. My cat, for instance, is interested in what I do on my computer.


I'm also interested in your definition of 'Ape'.

 

[Inan3]

Two things I would like you to define:

1) Animal
2) Ape

I would also like you to explain why humans do not fall in either category. Something other than "The Bible says so," please.

Sorry I didn't mean to end that post so soon. I seem to be having computer issues this evening.


Apes VS Humans

There are fewer genetic differences among humans across the globe
than there are among neighboring populations of chimpanzee.​

http://www.as.ua.edu/ant/bindon/ant275/presentations/Distribution_of_human_differences1.pdf


Metaphorically speaking, Dugaiczyk said, "Humans and primates march to the rhythm of a drum that looks identical; the same size, shape and sound. But, the human drum beats faster."

This chemical analysis of DNA structures also showed something else. The spread of the Alu DNA repeats was written into the chemistry of human chromosomes. The process was not random, Dugaiczyk said, and it was not subject to an environmental "natural selection," separating winners and losers as theorized by Darwin.

"We are not contending that natural selection does not exist, but that in this instance it is a chemical process within human chromosomes that explains why humans have an explosive expansion of DNA repeats, and primates do not," Dugaiczyk said.
http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1173


One of the greatest diffences is language. The ability to speak and communicate with words.

"Unlike human children, chimpanzees do not naturally pick up language from trained apes. Such abilities have been drilled into Kanzi, and each new trainee must be taught by humans. Also, chimps do not have a special region in the brain devoted to language, ashumans do. They have a much smaller brain overall, and lack the
anatomy to speak the words they may think. In summary, humans have an innate, built-in, hard-wired ability to acquire and communicate complex language from the moment of their birth; chimps do not.

Are chimps intelligent? The answerwould be yes. Do chimps possess the [FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]same kind of intelligence as humans? The answerwould have to be no. Humans are more intelligent, [FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]and they possess additional forms of intelligence. What we must remember, also, is that the greatest capabilities of the apes belong to a handful of superstars like Kanzi and Sheba.Yet even these animals lack the empathy, foresight, and language capabilities of all but the youngest or most intellectually challenged of our own species.​

http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/reprints/an-intel.pdf
[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Inan3]

This is not limited to just humans. My cat, for instance, is interested in what I do on my computer.

Yes but for much different reasons

 

[Phred]

Firstly, the word animal or animals is not in the KJV of the Bible which I use.

Do you guys have a decoder ring or something that maps back to this book? Everything must be in the book or it doesn't exist?

Humans are the highest form of animals.

Humans can be called the most intelligent form of animals. Perhaps the most dangerous. But not the "highest" as that means nothing.

 

[TheOutsider]

Humans can be called the most intelligent form of animals. Perhaps the most dangerous. But not the "highest" as that means nothing.

If I remember correctly, humans are the third most intelligent species on earth. Dolphins are second. I'd tell you what the most intelligent species is but that would ruin the book.

 

[Inan3]

Do you guys have a decoder ring or something that maps back to this book? Everything must be in the book or it doesn't exist?

Humans can be called the most intelligent form of animals. Perhaps the most dangerous. But not the "highest" as that means nothing.

Well, most everything that I have need of NOW is in that book and much more than I even realize. I don't need a decoder ring I have my spirit. It feeds off the Word of God. "Man does not live by bread alone but by EVERY word that proceeds out of the mouth of God"

Okay Phred, whatever you want to use for an adjective but humans are different than other animals and in a good way.

 

[TheOutsider]

Okay Phred, whatever you want to use for an adjective but humans are different than other animals and in a good way.

Yes, humans are a unique species. We are (more than likely) the smartest species on the planet. Our languages are more complex than that of any other species (we think). But before you go putting us on a pedestal right below God, remember that we still fit your definition of animals. We still fit any definition of apes you can come up with. We are not the only species with language. We are not above nature, we are part of nature.

 

[TheBear]

 

[Chalnoth]

I'd like to be clear on something.

Showing that humans have unique characteristics that no other species has in no way makes humans not apes or not animals. What it does is makes humans a unique species of ape, a unique species of animal. Every species on Earth, in fact, has traits that make it unique. We are no different.

What you need to do, if you want to show that humans are not apes or animals, is find a definition of animal that includes everything that we call animal, but does not include us, without resorting to special exception. Similarly, to define "ape" you would need to make a definition that includes gorillas, chimpanzees, and orangutans, but fails to include humans, without resorting to special exception.

So, what trait do gorillas, chimpanzees, and orangutans all have in common that humans do not?

 

[TheBear]

So, what trait do gorillas, chimpanzees, and orangutans all have in common that humans do not?

They don't need no badges?

 

[TheOutsider]

Since one good turn deserves another:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbG99vTIqAs

If Mick says that we are monkeys, then who are we to argue?

 

[corvus_corax]

...humans are different than other animals and in a good way.

Beetles are different than other animals and in a good way as well.
As a matter of fact, beetles are more beneficial to this planet than humans are.

So I guess I'm missing your point regarding "different in a good way"

 

[FishFace]

Metaphorically speaking, Dugaiczyk said, "Humans and primates march to the rhythm of a drum that looks identical; the same size, shape and sound. But, the human drum beats faster."

This chemical analysis of DNA structures also showed something else. The spread of the Alu DNA repeats was written into the chemistry of human chromosomes. The process was not random, Dugaiczyk said, and it was not subject to an environmental "natural selection," separating winners and losers as theorized by Darwin.

"We are not contending that natural selection does not exist, but that in this instance it is a chemical process within human chromosomes that explains why humans have an explosive expansion of DNA repeats, and primates do not," Dugaiczyk said.
http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1173

http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1173

You don't understand what this means, do you? It means that a whole load of the differences in human chromosomes compared to apes is that some aspect of our copying machinery causes certain sequences to repeat themselves. This means we are more closely related to chimps than the DNA would suggest, because some of the differences are just caused by errors.

One of the greatest diffences is language. The ability to speak and communicate with words.

"Unlike human children, chimpanzees do not naturally pick up language from trained apes. Such abilities have been drilled into Kanzi, and each new trainee must be taught by humans.​

They do, however, learn chimp language from chimps.

Also, chimps do not have

a special region in the brain devoted to language, ashumans do. They have a much smaller brain overall, and lack the
anatomy to speak the words they may think. In summary, humans have an innate, built-in, hard-wired ability to acquire and communicate complex language from the moment of their birth; chimps do not.

This is a difference, but not a big one. Certainly nothing that evolution couldn't get around, certainly nothing that justifies belief in an old book over hard facts.

Are chimps intelligent? The answerwould be yes. Do

chimps possess the [FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]same kind

of intelligence as humans? The answerwould have to be no. Humans are more intelligent, [FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]and

they possess additional forms of intelligence. What we must remember, also, is that the greatest capabilities of the apes belong to a handful of superstars like Kanzi and Sheba.Yet even these animals lack the empathy, foresight, and language capabilities of all but the youngest or most intellectually challenged of our own species.[/FONT][/FONT]

http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/reprints/an-intel.pdf

What you've given is correct, but it doesn't deal with the point - that humans and apes are very similar, more similar than other species which you accept as being related.

 

[Inan3]

​

[/URL]

[/FONT]You don't understand what this means, do you? It means that a whole load of the differences in human chromosomes compared to apes is that some aspect of our copying machinery causes certain sequences to repeat themselves. This means we are more closely related to chimps than the DNA would suggest, because some of the differences are just caused by errors.



[/I][/FONT][/FONT]They do, however, learn chimp language from chimps.

[/B]

This is a difference, but not a big one. Certainly nothing that evolution couldn't get around, certainly nothing that justifies belief in an old book over hard facts.



What you've given is correct, but it doesn't deal with the point - that humans and apes are very similar, more similar than other species which you accept as being related.

There are similarities is all of creation. Language and the ability to speak are God like qualities which separate us from the rest of creation and purposefully done. It is written in our DNA and is not a random occurance but an intelligent design.