Defining the Body of Christ

[TruelightUK]

The One Body of Christ - the universal, Catholic Church (in its true sense, not the post-reformation one!).

How exactly are we to understand this concept today, with our myriad of sectarian groupings? Where exactly does one draw the boundaries? And how does this compare with the understanding of the early Church?

Anthony

 

[GreenEyedLady]

Ephesians 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Ephesians 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
17 ¶This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

I look at it like this...we have all these differant sections in christianity. Some churchs are the fingers, some are the hands, some are the arms, some are the shoulders, some are the feet, some are the calves, some are the legs, some are the groin, some are the back, some are the stomach, some are the chest, some are the neck.(CHRIST IS THE HEAD) They ALL make up the body of Christ. Regardless of which denomination it is...we are all in the body of Christ. I hope this is what you were looking for..if not then clue me in!
GEL

 

[LilyLamb]

I agree with GEL ... every "Christian" church (be it Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, Pentecostal) makes up the "body" of Christ - and Jesus is the Head.

 

[TruelightUK]

I see where you are coming from - but is this a fair interpretation of the Word of God?

Certainly the New Testament was not written from the perspective of a highly divided selection of denominations - so are we justified in reading our own gloss on it, based on 1000+ years of division? For the early Church, there was only One Church - One Faith, One Lord, One Baptism - with some considerable breadth of opinion on subsidiary doctrines, but united, not just in some other-worldly mystical sense, but in visible, organisational form. Thus when the likes of Tertullian broke away from the Church, this was regarded as a serious breach of unity - schismatics put themselves outside the Church: their baptism was not recognised, nor were they 'in communion' with the Body of Christ, but needed to repent before they could be re-admitted to fellowship.

Given the subsequent schisms between East and West, Catholic and Protestant, and within the protestant world, how exactly are we to draw the boundaries of the Church? With no visible, structural unity, what is our basis for defining who is and who is not a member of Christ's Body? There is no salvation outside the Chruch - yet if various historic denominations can break awauy from their parent churches and still be part of the One True Church, what of those who further schismatise(?), rejecting the discipline and authority of their own denominations and setting up their own 'churches' to suit their own particular choice of doctrine and worship-style? At what point does such division become rebellion, which is tantamount to witchcraft, and call into question the salvation of those following that course of action?

Putting it another way, is there not a danger that by drawing our tighly defined 'battlelines' around particular aspects of doctrine and practice, we make of those things idols which detract from our central faith in Christ?

Anthony

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

Green Eyed Lady... I didn't know you were still alive! How have you been, lol!

 

[eldermike]

JN 4:19 "Sir," the woman said, "I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem."

JN 4:21 Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

The church is not a place, nor a denomination.

Blessings

 

[TruelightUK]

Originally posted by eldermike
The church is not a place, nor a denomination.

So what is it???

Anthony

 

[eldermike]

Break it down:
Spirit and truth = the 2 requirments for worship. The body of Christ = the church = all who are saved. Not a place nor a denomination, it's a condition. God is us/us in God. Kinship/family. The membership roles are nto kept on earth.

2 or more gathered in my name, there I will be also. = a gathering of beleivers.

Blessings

 

[GreenEyedLady]

I agree!
GEL.
i am awesome Defender of Faith 777 How are you?
GEL

 

[TruelightUK]

Originally posted by eldermike
The body of Christ = the church = all who are saved. ...
2 or more gathered in my name, there I will be also. = a gathering of beleivers.

So does that mean it's okay to break away from 'a church' at any point, (because you disagree with an element of their teaching, or their 'style' does not suit you, or you just feel your ministry is not being recognised? Is there no case to be made for mutual submission, loyalty and a unity which goes beyond some nebuous mystical one-ness? As long at least two people are meeting together, does that constitute 'Church'? Even if they isolate themselves from and defame the rest of the Body? Is it enough to meet 'in His Name' even if your whole doctrine and behaviour is 'off message' (eg the Church of Jesus Christ LDS)?

Anthony

 

[eldermike]

Anthony,

Breaking fellowship with a body of beleivers in not breaking away from the church. I beleive that all should attend a local church and become active in it. The church is the body of Christ in which all who believe are members. If a person is saved he is a member of the church.

I beleive that the Lord leads us to a ministry I believe that a true ministry is accountable and thus has a home church. I see no problem with the number of denominations we now have. I do see a problem with the idea that we are not all in the same church (the body of Christ).

Blessings

 

[GreenEyedLady]

How does one tell if they are not truley saved?
How can you tell that YOUR church is the most biblically based church?
Just wondering..
GEL

 

[eldermike]

Gel,

Being saved does not require being in the most biblically based church. Salvation is not given through the church, it's a free gift given upon beleiving that Jesus died for our sins. I know people that do not attend any church that are saved. Salvation has evidence.

Your question is a good one. If people are to get saved the church has a responsibility to tell the truth, and our only source for that truth is the bible. Some denominations have other sources but the test is: which source will stand on it's own? Only the bible is the answer. I am not saying that the other sources are wrong, but they are simply not necessary for salvation. IMHO, the work of the church is to spread the good news and get people saved by hearing it. The rest is fluff.

Chruches that do not teach the truth of scripture will still have saved members, and, churches that do teach the truth of scripture will have lost members. The church (building/denomination) is not "saved", it's a gift given to each person. The easiest thing to miss is that the blood of Jesus was required for my salvation and through pride I can miss salvation by not reaching out to take that gift. If I see this gift for others and not for me, then I can sit in any church, on the front row, for all of my life and then go to hell when I die. I am a sinner, Jesus died for me because I can't be in His presence without His covering blood. I don't need a denominational stamp of that truth, nor do I need anyone to agree with it.

We are the church, all that are saved, not matter where we are.

Blessings

 

[TruelightUK]

our only source for that truth is the bible

Really? I thought Jesus was the Truth (the consummate way in which God has spoken to us, Heb 1:2), and that He sent the Holy Spirit to lead us further into that Truth, both individually, and through the various ministry gifts which He has placed in the Church!
Of course the Bible is a major source of Truth - even the major source, and a/the measuring stick for other potential reveltaions - but surely not the sole source! Certainly the early Church didn't think so; they were 'devoted to the Apostles' doctrine' long before the New Testament was written and, even after it was, put great trust in the oral traditon which the Lord had entrusted to His apostles and those to whom they in turn communicated that Truth to - the Church, which is the pillar and ground of Truth (and which, in due time, established the canon of Scripture which we have today).

Anthony

 

[TruelightUK]

Originally posted by eldermike
Breaking fellowship with a body of beleivers in not breaking away from the church.... The church is the body of Christ in which all who believe are members.

How then can one put oneself 'out of fellowship' with one local manifestation of that Body, without, in some way, distancing oneself from (or damaging - if not actually denying - one's fellowship with) the overall Body? Is it ever acceptable to cause a schism within Christ's Church - let alone, as so regularly happens today, to split and divide over relatively minor matters of personal interpretation or preference? With so many 'denominations' and 'non-denominations' already in existence, why the constant need to proliferate yet more little bastions of independence?

I see no problem with the number of denominations we now have. I do see a problem with the idea that we are not all in the same church (the body of Christ).

But, as I asked before, where does the line get drawn between different 'denominations' of the One Church, and non-christian deviants from orthodoxy? With no visible, structural unity, what exactly is it that defines our 'oneness', and how is one to discern true from false?
And, as a further thought, why the resistance of some sects to any appearance of collaboration with others, supposedly, within the same supposed Body who do not share their particular doctrinal emphasis?

Anthony

 

[Auntie]

Originally posted by GreenEyedLady

Regardless of which denomination it is...we are all in the body of Christ.

GEL

Yes GEL, and here is proof your words are true, Catholic and Protestant alike are in prayer with you. How sad that tragedy has united us, but we are united, the Body of Christ is UNITED with you GEL.