Defining My Perception of Love

[Chesterton]

In that scenario you punished yourself. You asked to be set free. I believe the rest of the thought goes like this: If you love someone set them free. If it's meant to be they will come back to you.

Yes, true. Except, to be picky, I'm not sure what "meant to be" means to you.

 

[junebug72]

I spoke my perception of his love.

He loves us, and because He loves us, his justice is just.

Who says He's wrong?
Not concerned whether your atheist or not. Doesn't matter and has no factor on God's love.

No one can lead you to anywhere, if you don't want to go.

And justice, isn't once saved always saved belief...alone...it's biblical. But again, that's another thread.

I'm very confused. I reject the claim God exists due to lack of evidence! Existence has quite a lot to do with whether or not something can love you. Things that don't exist can not love. Mind blown!

God's existence certainly has no bearing on my human capacity to love. You still have that pesky problem of evil and the choice to do good. If people love simply because God exists, which I think you just claimed.

 

[Strivax]

... I reject the claim God exists due to lack of evidence!...

Uh huh. That's exactly how I thought, for a long time. It's a respectable position.

But eventually I came to believe, and then came the (entirely subjective, and completely overwhelming) evidence not only that God exists, but also that He loves all of humanity. That's the way it is, no objective evidence, so as not to compromise our freedom to believe or disbelieve as we choose. But it does mean that those who believe get vindicated and those who don't, and demand evidence before they do so, are doomed to disappointment.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[smithed64]

I'm very confused. I reject the claim God exists due to lack of evidence! Existence has quite a lot to do with whether or not something can love you. Things that don't exist can not love. Mind blown!

God's existence certainly has no bearing on my human capacity to love. You still have that pesky problem of evil and the choice to do good. If people love simply because God exists, which I think you just claimed.

Nope, that is not what I just claimed.
I claimed that God, is love, and therefore loves His creation.
He is also just, so he will justly judge His creation.

if there was a evidence that God existed, would the you be open to accept it, given that your presuppositions are in opposition to the existence of God?

 

[MehGuy]

Would explain in your own words what you mean by sadist? To each their own. I'm not judgey. Masochists need love too. I just want to understand your perception of it.

I think this video describes my sentiments well about how sadomasochism can be love. It's 15 minutes long, although if you start at 7 minutes you should get the gist of it.

Like I said, a very informative talk. If you have the time I'd watch the whole video.

Does that mean you view love as necessary to procreate? Survive?

I am not sure. For me personally, I'd wager love has more to do with child caring than anything. Many people have sex without the notion of romantic love (although the very act triggers such feelings for many itself, even sociopaths). I think love encourages somewhat of a family unit, that will tend to last at least until the child comes to term and maybe a few years after that.

Personally I think the idea of long term monogamy for humans is against our nature, some say the same for monogamy itself. Although I think most people are more content with short term monogamy.

Although my post has more to do with romantic kind of love. As for other kinds, I'm not sure. I'm not even sure I'd call personally call them love.

 

[MehGuy]

Love, for humans, among other animals, may indeed be an evolutionary adaptation. But is it 'nothing but' an evolutionary adaptation, or did God so contrive the universe that it would inevitably develop the capacity for love of it's own accord?

Best wishes, Strivax.

I'm an atheist, so no I do not believe that at all.

Personally I've never taken much stock in love myself. Other than sadist love, I almost feel like a sociopath, lol. Never really understood religious people who hold such feelings to such a high ideal. Nothing wrong with it, I just can't relate to it at all.

As far as love goes, I think it will be greatly enhanced and maybe indistinguishable once things like trans humanism really gets going.

 

[junebug72]

Yes, true. Except, to be picky, I'm not sure what "meant to be" means to you.

In context "meant to be" means ordained by God. Like the concept soulmate. I don't believe in either one. I think love is hard work.

 

[junebug72]

I think this video describes my sentiments well about how sadomasochism can be love. It's 15 minutes long, although if you start at 7 minutes you should get the gist of it.

Like I said, a very informative talk. If you have the time I'd watch the whole video.



I am not sure. For me personally, I'd wager love has more to do with child caring than anything. Many people have sex without the notion of romantic love (although the very act triggers such feelings for many itself, even sociopaths). I think love encourages somewhat of a family unit, that will tend to last at least until the child comes to term and maybe a few years after that.

Personally I think the idea of long term monogamy for humans is against our nature, some say the same for monogamy itself. Although I think most people are more content with short term monogamy.

Although my post has more to do with romantic kind of love. As for other kinds, I'm not sure. I'm not even sure I'd call personally call them love.

Thanks for sharing MehGuy.

I agree that child caring would be hard to do if you didn't love the little ones. Most adults will look out for children that are not even their own to an extent. Children are so vulnerable. That seems to back up the claim in the video that vulnerability spawns love.

Is it an inability to be vulnerable that causes one to be a sadist? Is it too much vulnerability that causes one to be a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]? Are you ''born this way'' or made this way by childhood environment?

If Yahweh exists he shows no vulnerability. Even Jesus was all under His power, he was Jesus. It was a part of his plan. Jesus was never vulnerable.

 

[dhh712]

Hello. My name is JB for short. I am extremely interested in how you as an individual define; LOVE.

I define love as do no harm, want the best for you always, laughter and security. If you need food and I have some I will share it with you; the same for water.

Forgiveness, empathy, nurture, sharing are some other examples of how we can show love, IMO.

Things I don't consider love: anger, wrath, betrayal, cruelty, chaos, violence, lies...

I define love as self-sacrifice which may include anger or some type of temporary punishment if appropriate (such as in disciplining children for example).

Basically I see it as caring more about the other person than yourself, even if that means jeopardizing that sense of not wanting to be seen as the "bad" person, if you know that what you are doing that is probably seen as negative is actually best for the person (we of course are very limited in knowing what is best for another person and that judgment of ours will often be flawed).

 

[junebug72]

Nope, that is not what I just claimed.
I claimed that God, is love, and therefore loves His creation.
He is also just, so he will justly judge His creation.

if there was a evidence that God existed, would the you be open to accept it, given that your presuppositions are in opposition to the existence of God?

I gave up on presuppositions when I became atheist. I am a former theist, raised baptist journeyed on to SBNR (spiritual but not religious) to atheism. Every step of the way trying to be a kind and generous human being. Doing as much good as I can.

I don't understand where the "nope I did not claim that" came from. What did I say you claimed that you did not say?

Can you back up your claim that God exists and is love? If I am wrong I want to KNOW it.

 

[junebug72]

I think love, in terms of romantic love, is finding the person who is the other part of you, it is a recognition. It is finding the one you were born for, your split apart. The other half of your soul.

If people who love each other are angry, I think many times it is a manifestation of fear. Fear that the beloved does not love, fear of disappointing the beloved, fear of having caused hurt, fear of losing the beloved, fear of not being good enough, fear of betrayal, etc.

I think you are not taking into effect that the people who can hurt us or who we can hurt are only the people we love. If a random person told me "I hate you." I might be annoyed, but not hurt because I do not know the random stranger and do not love them (except as a fellow human being). The only people who can really hurt me are the ones I love, because I am close to the fire, and sometimes sparks fly out and strike me.

People are imperfect beings, and we get angry, hurt, confused, etc. Ultimately, love is forgiveness and restoration. I remember the first time I told my mother I hated her (first and only time, thank goodness). I was a teenager, it struck my mother like a knife to the heart. The minute I said it, I was sorry. She forgave me, and the relationship was restored. This is love, it's not perfect, but it is unfailing. I often think of the parable of the prodigal son. He basically put his father through Hell, by leaving and degrading himself. The Bible doesn't mention it, but I can imagine how many tears were shed, how angry and wrathful the father might have been, how many sleepless nights he must have suffered, wondering where his boy was and if he was alright or even still alive.

The son came back and the father did not just welcome him back, but held a feast in his honor and restored the son to his former position. The son had planned to ask to be a servant. This to me means love- in all human relationships, not that there won't be all these terrible things, there will be because we are fallen creatures. But forgiveness and restoration are there if love is there.

I think confusion and chaos can come into love if there is a problem with communication. These things happen due to misunderstandings. When communication is restored, confusion and chaos cease. I know you are an atheist, but love to me in all relationships is akin to God's love. No matter what we might do, He always loves us, and we can always come back to Him and be restored in fellowship. So, even if there is a rift, if love is there it can be repaired.

I think it is simplistic not to think there is no suffering in love. There always is, if the love is true. It's not always perfect. Parents suffer when their children are disobedient, children suffer when their parents fail them, people suffer when they are hurt by each other. I realize you are not a Christian, but to us, the supreme example of love is also the extreme example of suffering. Christ is love, but also the Man of constant sorrow. If He did not love, He would not have suffered. I am not a Catholic, but I always liked the image of Christ with the bleeding heart. It reminds us that He loves and suffers even still.

The tolerance, respect, and kindness is just civility, not deep down love. Someone wrote, "The course of true love never did run smooth." I think this might be the reason why so many of our books, films, songs, etc. incorporate love and pain. Cruelty and wrath, chaos and confusion may happen. The question I would ask is, what were the causes of such feelings? If they are borne of hate, it is not love. But if they are borne of miscommunication and misunderstanding, these things could coexist with love.

I can feel the influence of a fallen species in your words. If you can not feel how that blocks motivation to improve our social interactions with one another I have to use the metaphor you are blind as a bat.

You have given up on the human race I have not. To me this comes from very distinctively different worldviews. You are all gloom and doom and and I'm happy. See the difference.

To be empathetic because I should I know that environment is a big influence on you and because I hope, environment can also change your mind.

I'm not a whooping block. If someone claims they love me and act in a way that is not, well actions speak louder than words. I would bring to task their claim of loving me. If found to be untrue I would exit stage ''left'', pun intended. I'm liberal. I'll do some forgiving don't get me wrong. A beaten wife has every right to say that's not love and divorce. That is not immoral. A mother has a right to tell her child she has boundaries and teach them to respect that and they have the same right.

"If it don't come easy, you need to let it go''. Not sure where that originated but I agree with it. When and if I try romantic love again it will be a requirement.

I don't think teaching the younger generation that love is chained to a roller coaster ride is providing them with something better than we found but instead stunting their growth. I take setting the example, walking the talk very seriously.

 

[junebug72]

@ Galatea Just so you know I also found some of your words compelling. I don't won't to leave you with the impression that I did not.

It was a very thoughtful post.

 

[junebug72]

It is very preachy to say things like 'maybe if you used empathy to understand your wife' as you are assuming you understand the mechanics of another's relationship. The post before this you insinuated that I don't love my wife. Both are not very equitable or empathic things to say to someone in a discussion. I can assure you, no one understands another person's relationships, often not even that person.

When you love someone, you think so highly of them that you think they would transcend a petty 'bad day' mentality. When they fail you, you are disappointed. If you don't, then that means you have likely lowered your expectation of them, which is of course not very loving. This is a catch-22 if we consider what you propose 'love', in my opinion.

I have never met these 'successful' couples that never fight and quite frankly do not believe they exist. Neither for that matter does Psychology or Psychiatry and what you describe sounds like avoidant or dependant personality disorder.
On both a practical and a theoretical level, I cannot see how they can exist.

As to anger being a childish emotion: your point? All emotions are childish things. Love itself is a very childish thing. The first emotion a child experiences is the rush of bonding oxytocin with its mother, the same chemical that facilitates all love.
Lovers even act childishly at first. Writing notes, giggling, going off on their own etc. Very puerile behaviour indeed.
However, all emotions have their place and purpose. No emotion is 'bad', although if given free reign can result in evil. This is classical Golden Mean territory. Anger is necessary to push through when you are at your limit, to establish Justice, to have righteous indignation push you to do something against all odds. It can make us do what is necessary and right even when we do not want to.

Watch Pixar's Inside Out with your grandchild when you have time. You need a more nuanced appreciation for the need of all emotions instead of putting 'empathy' on some pedestal like a god.

I deserved that. It just seems to me when I think of Christianity and Jesus this is exactly what Jesus taught. Your basically arguing that Jesus was wrong in saying forgive your enemies. Do unto others because that requires empathy. Turn the other cheek. You don't apply this philosophy at home how then do you apply it to strangers?

 

[smithed64]

I gave up on presuppositions when I became atheist. I am a former theist, raised baptist journeyed on to SBNR (spiritual but not religious) to atheism. Every step of the way trying to be a kind and generous human being. Doing as much good as I can.

I don't understand where the "nope I did not claim that" came from. What did I say you claimed that you did not say?

Can you back up your claim that God exists and is love? If I am wrong I want to KNOW it.

the "nope I did not claim that" statement is my mistake, sorry. You didn't say anything.

Don't have to back up that God exists.

You already know He does.

 

[Galatea]

I can feel the influence of a fallen species in your words. If you can not feel how that blocks motivation to improve our social interactions with one another I have to use the metaphor you are blind as a bat.

You have given up on the human race I have not. To me this comes from very distinctively different worldviews. You are all gloom and doom and and I'm happy. See the difference.

To be empathetic because I should I know that environment is a big influence on you and because I hope, environment can also change your mind.

I'm not a whooping block. If someone claims they love me and act in a way that is not, well actions speak louder than words. I would bring to task their claim of loving me. If found to be untrue I would exit stage ''left'', pun intended. I'm liberal. I'll do some forgiving don't get me wrong. A beaten wife has every right to say that's not love and divorce. That is not immoral. A mother has a right to tell her child she has boundaries and teach them to respect that and they have the same right.

"If it don't come easy, you need to let it go''. Not sure where that originated but I agree with it. When and if I try romantic love again it will be a requirement.

I don't think teaching the younger generation that love is chained to a roller coaster ride is providing them with something better than we found but instead stunting their growth. I take setting the example, walking the talk very seriously.

Quite the opposite, I have not given up on the human race. It is fallen, but not irredeemable. My worldview is not gloom and doom, but one of hope and joy, love and peace. I believe no matter how degraded a person is, there is hope for redemption. I am not blind, but optimistic. I believe if a person hurts another, forgiveness is possible and restoration to fellowship can be made. Forgive me from this observation, but from your posts in this thread, you appear to be very unhappy.

"If it don't come easy, let it go" - that's very sad. Human relationships are not easy, because we are ALL imperfect. I prefer "Anything worth having is worth working for." If it comes easy, it's probably not worth having and only surface companionship. Every pastor or psychologist I've ever heard speak or write say that marriage is work, it's not easy.

You write as though you have never transgressed against love. Have you never hurt the one you love and feel sorry and want to be restored to the lover once more?

 

[junebug72]

Quite the opposite, I have not given up on the human race. It is fallen, but not irredeemable. My worldview is not gloom and doom, but one of hope and joy, love and peace. I believe no matter how degraded a person is, there is hope for redemption. I am not blind, but optimistic. I believe if a person hurts another, forgiveness is possible and restoration to fellowship can be made. Forgive me from this observation, but from your posts in this thread, you appear to be very unhappy.

"If it don't come easy, let it go" - that's very sad. Human relationships are not easy, because we are ALL imperfect. I prefer "Anything worth having is worth working for." If it comes easy, it's probably not worth having and only surface companionship. Every pastor or psychologist I've ever heard speak or write say that marriage is work, it's not easy.

You write as though you have never transgressed against love. Have you never hurt the one you love and feel sorry and want to be restored to the lover once more?

Please quote the words that make me seem unhappy. I'm very happy. That's what I said isn't it, I'm happy?

You completely ignored my statement about empathy. Is it the Golden rule or not? If you follow this rule all the time especially with your loved ones why would it not be easy? I find it very easy not to hurt the people I love.

I did break up with a lover for cheating on me. I don't think it hurt though. I'm capable of conducting myself in society without hurting others.

BTW I have seen Inside Out 20 X's. Joy ran the show. She kept the other emotions from causing Riley to be irrational. Just think of what happened when anger took the reins. She ran away from home. Sadness is unavoidable in this life but you let it run it's course and joy will return. Fear and disgust are useful. For example Genesis disgusts me. There is a reason for that. Thoughts of brothers and sisters mating is repulsive. There are irrational fears and I don't think any Psychologist you speak to would encourage anyone to entertain irrational fears. Fear of God is an irrational fear if the God loves you or does not exist.

There were times when my son was a teenager that I allowed anger to take over. It was because of this that I learned patience was a virtue.

I could explain the biology of it to you if you like. Anger is not good for your health. Your brain releases cortisol and too much cortisol affects heart, lungs, brain and digestion.

In Psychology there is STOP. http://www.mindful.org/stressing-out-stop/

 

[junebug72]

the "nope I did not claim that" statement is my mistake, sorry. You didn't say anything.

Don't have to back up that God exists.

You already know He does.

I do not accept the claim that Yahweh exists. You saying that to me would be the equivalent of me saying to you; you know God does not exist. I even capitalized the "G" out of respect for your belief. I don't have a belief in the non existence of God I reject the posited claim that It does due to lack of evidence.

I find your comment very disrespectful and a violation of The Golden Rule. Which BTW has been around longer than Christianity; also capitalized.

 

[junebug72]

"if it don't come easy" is a lesson I have learned from staying in a bad relationship just for the sake of not being alone. Everything felt forced. I was with the wrong person. Since this happens in Christian marriages as well I don't think it had anything to do with being atheist. I was not an atheist at the time anyway.

I think the most important person to have empathy for is yourself. Understand yourself first only then can you understand others, IMO.

 

[Galatea]

Please quote the words that make me seem unhappy. I'm very happy. That's what I said isn't it, I'm happy?

You completely ignored my statement about empathy. Is it the Golden rule or not? If you follow this rule all the time especially with your loved ones why would it not be easy? I find it very easy not to hurt the people I love.

I did break up with a lover for cheating on me. I don't think it hurt though. I'm capable of conducting myself in society without hurting others.

BTW I have seen Inside Out 20 X's. Joy ran the show. She kept the other emotions from causing Riley to be irrational. Just think of what happened when anger took the reins. She ran away from home. Sadness is unavoidable in this life but you let it run it's course and joy will return. Fear and disgust are useful. For example Genesis disgusts me. There is a reason for that. Thoughts of brothers and sisters mating is repulsive. There are irrational fears and I don't think any Psychologist you speak to would encourage anyone to entertain irrational fears. Fear of God is an irrational fear if the God loves you or does not exist.

There were times when my son was a teenager that I allowed anger to take over. It was because of this that I learned patience was a virtue.

I could explain the biology of it to you if you like. Anger is not good for your health. Your brain releases cortisol and too much cortisol affects heart, lungs, brain and digestion.

In Psychology there is STOP. http://www.mindful.org/stressing-out-stop/

You say you would give your life to be loved to the moon and back. Since you think no one loves you like that, you sound unhappy.

No one can follow the Golden Rule all the time except Jesus. Are you always kind, compassionate, tolerant, never angry, always a perfectly lovely woman to every person all the time? Love is not being perfect, it is forgiving the loved one when they transgress. It is saying "You hurt me, but I love you and forgive you." This is peace, this is security, this is compassion, ultimate tolerance. It is Jesus forgiving those who crucified Him. It is Jesus who forgave the apostle Paul who held the coats of the people who martyred Steven. This is love.

I am sure you have hurt people you love, even if unknowingly. A chance word, not intended to hurt, can cause pain. We've all done this.

I've not seen Inside Out, so I can't speak to that. I am not saying people should be angry all the time. Of course that's not good for your health- mental, spiritual, physical, etc. But people get angry once in a while. It is something that happens. It's not a permanent state. The girl in the movie got angry, right? But it didn't last forever. It's a blip- an abnormality on the chart, if you will. It sounds to me like you expect people to be perfect and never hurt each other. This means you won't be happy, because people hurt each other. Happiness, peace, love, joy comes from forgiving and restoration. I thank God that my loved ones forgive me when I hurt them, and I am not thrown away for transgressing against love.

 

[Galatea]

"if it don't come easy" is a lesson I have learned from staying in a bad relationship just for the sake of not being alone. Everything felt forced. I was with the wrong person. Since this happens in Christian marriages as well I don't think it had anything to do with being atheist. I was not an atheist at the time anyway.

I think the most important person to have empathy for is yourself. Understand yourself first only then can you understand others, IMO.

With respect, I don't think you understand yourself if you think you always practice the Golden Rule to everyone. I am sure you have hurt people in your life.