Defining Grace.

twin1954 said:

I will respond to this long post when I have more time.

In the meantime the word law as it is used in the Scriptures, and as you quoted David using it, does not always mean the commandments given on Sinai. In the context it can mean just the first five books of the Bible, the Sinaiatic commandments or the whole of the Old Testament Scriptures.

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I agree, but all the five books of Moses and the whole OT are both inclusive of the Law given at Sinai. In any case, there exists a set of laws are in accordance with God's grace.

Soyeong said:

I agree, but all the five books of Moses and the whole OT are both inclusive of the Law given at Sinai. In any case, there exists a set of laws are in accordance with God's grace.

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Not according to the inspired writings of Paul. He clearly tells us in Gal. that the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. The purpose of the law was never to teach us how to live but to reveal that we could't live up to its standards. That is why we must have Christ. The law drives us to Christ because we cannot meet its high and holy standard. I suspect that I have even a higher view of the law than you do. I grasp that the law is far too high for me and I can in no way live up to it. That is why I must have Christ who could and did in my place.

What the Lord was teaching, especially in the Sermon on the Mount, was the true nature of the law and our inability to meet its high standard.

Grace = Undeserved mercy. Does that help? God bless.

twin1954 said:

Yes Paul clearly taught us how to walk. He taught us to walk in and by faith not by sight. Walking by faith is not keeping a set of rules it is simply looking to the complete and finished work of Christ.

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Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

This is the finished work of Christ. It involves Christ giving himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness, but also to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, and God's Law is His instructions for how to do good works (2 Timothy 3:16-17). Faith in God is straightforwardly about trusting God to guide us in how to rightly live through living in obedience to His commands, for the righteous shall live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4). Every example of saving faith listed in Hebrews 11 is also an example of obedience to God's commands, so living by faith has never referred to living in some other manner than does not seek to obey God's commands. In Deuteronomy 6:24 and Deuteronomy 10:13, God said that what He commanded was for His people's own good, so those who believe what God said live by faith by living in obedience to His commands, and it is through doing this that we are putting faith in the finished work of Christ.

No one is promoting sin because we are justified. That would be ridiculous. What I am saying is that we must recognize that everything we do is mixed with sin and that we can no more act righteously in ourselves than we can save ourselves I am simply pointing out that faith looks to Christ not to self in any sense. Faith rests in what He has done in every moment not what we think we ought to be doing. Faith is to be free from both the penalty of sin and the fear of God's wrath because of it. God does chastize His own to be sure but He can never again punish them for their sin.

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You don't think that we should have faith in Christ to guide us in what we ought to be doing? There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Romans 8:1), but though who are in Christ out to walk in the same way that he walked, which was in obedience to the Mosaic Law (1 John 2:6).

twin1954 said:

Not according to the inspired writings of Paul. He clearly tells us in Gal. that the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ.

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Having no more need for a schoolmaster is not at all the same thing as having no more need for what the schoolmaster taught us. Now that Christ as come, we have a superior teacher, but the subject matter is still about instructing us how to act according to God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness. We can now rely on his teachings and his example of obedience to God's Law to guide us in how to serve God and walk in His ways. We also now have the Spirit, who has the role of leading us in obedience to God's Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

The purpose of the law was never to teach us how to live but to reveal that we could't live up to its standards. That is why we must have Christ. The law drives us to Christ because we cannot meet its high and holy standard. I suspect that I have even a higher view of the law than you do. I grasp that the law is far too high for me and I can in no way live up to it. That is why I must have Christ who could and did in my place.

What the Lord was teaching, especially in the Sermon on the Mount, was the true nature of the law and our inability to meet its high standard.

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The Law is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) because it instructs us how to live according to God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness. For example, we are told in 1 Peter 1:13-16 to have a holy conduct for God is holy, so following God's instructions for how to do that is about teaching us by grace to act according to God's holiness, and the same goes for God's righteousness, goodness, and other fruits of the Spirit (Exodus 34:6-7). In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that justice, mercy, and faith are the weightier matters of the Law, so again the Law is about teaching us by grace how to reflect these attributes of God to the world.

While it is true that our failure to follow God's good instructions highlights that we can't live up to God's standard, the problem is with us, not with God's righteous standard, so the solution is not to do away with God's righteous standard, but to free us from the law of sin so that we can be free to obey God's Law that we might meet its righteous requirement (Romans 8:3-4). Our sanctification is about being made to be like Christ, who always did what was holy, righteous, and good in accordance to God's Law. Jesus summarized the Law as being about how to love God and our neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40), so saying that he met the requirement of obeying the law in our place is like saying that he loved God and our neighbor so that we don't have to, but rather he did so in part so that we would have an example to follow, which we are told to follow (1 Peter 2:21-22).

Soyeong said:

While it is true that our failure to follow God's good instructions highlights that we can't live up to God's standard

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In ACTS men lived very well up to God's Standard, "perfectly", and very visibly.

Likewise in other assemblies of ekklesia born of GOD, chosen by GOD, set apart by GOD, and dwelling with GOD, IMMANUEL - GOD WITH MEN. Echad with JESUS and the Father.

GRACE?! Grace and Power and TRUTH with JESUS !

Any failure to follow God's good instructions might be due to willful disobedience, willful lack of trust, as many people admit when questioned saying "we cannot" or "I don't want to" or "we do it different now, not like they used to" -- ADMITTING the failure and accepting it instead of crying in repentance and turning to God for wisdom and strength to DO what God says to DO.

Derpytia, I don't know that i have a definition of grace, but from scripture it does seem that grace is not only favour but power, as well. It is power to be changed from glory to glory into the likeness of Christ, power to walk by faith, power with God that He hears our prayers...etc. Grace might be hard to nail down in a single definition, because it has many aspects. Wish I could be more helpful on that.....it's a good question, and got me thinking.

To those here who are arguing against a doctrine of "go and sin no more".........not sure I understand the problem with that. Isn't this what Jesus said to those He healed or forgave, and He wasn't putting them under the Law........instead of obeying the Law per se, now we obey Jesus, by the power/grace/spirit He gives. Sin is what He came to save us from, is it not? Turning away from sin and walking after the Spirit....is this not the evidence of our salvation? If we're still thieves, fornicators, liars, wife-beaters, swindlers or whatever we were before receiving Christ, how can we say we are saved and belong to the Lord. Now should we sin, we have an Advocate, thankfully......but we ought to flee sin like the plague, if we are sincere with the Lord and following Jesus, sin should be a rare-to-none kind of thing in the life of the believer. And God forbid, but if we keep on wilfully sinning there is no more sacrifice for that. Should the church preach to go and sin, or should we preach to go and sin no more. If you ask me there is far too little preaching about going and sinning no more than is needed........seems like the lack of it is the reason, or at least one reason, that both church and society are plunging into perdition, having succumbed to political correctness and fear of "offending". It's another way of saying the church has lost its salt, I'm afraid.

derpytia said:

So it was recently brought to my attention (by my own wandering thoughts, thanks brain) that if I was asked to clearly define what exactly God's grace is and how it works and where one can find it and how it shows up in life for the believer to a nonbeliever, I wouldn't know how exactly to define it for them (and I'm a little fuzzy on a correct definition for myself). I'd be interested if you guys could help me find a good answer not just for me but if it comes up in a conversation with someone who has questions...

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Grace: Getting something that you do not deserve. In the context of the sinner, which is every human being, it's getting eternal life, which we do not deserve and can never earn in any possible human way.

Mercy: NOT getting something you DO deserve. In the context of the sinner, we are NOT getting punishment for our sins. Christ has mercy on us and gives us His Grace, if we accept His gift of pardon from our rightful punishment. -

I heard a definition of Grace recently that I liked, it was 'a change of attitude in the soul towards God the soul could could not have brought about by itself'. By Grace, I have been awakened and want to co-operate with God. This is one form of Grace. I could not have brought it about by myself. Something was planted in me, I could not have planted it by myself. That is Grace.

By Grace, my sins are forgiven. By Grace, that which was planted in me desires to walk in repentence.

1 John 1:5-10
1 John 2:1-12

I am tending something precious. Works are not for achieving salvation, they are for the perfecting of what was already saved. And also for the good pleasure of the Father, and that which is in us. "Thy Kingdom come, thy Will be done..."

Luke 17:20-21

So the Kingdom is handed over, the keys are no longer mine. By Grace, the rebel is not executed. By Grace he is called to be a servant and a Son.

Ephesians 2:8-10

I shall never be a perfect servant, nor a perfect Son. But I am called to head in one direction, and not the other, there is no mistaking this. And that calling too, is Grace.

derpytia said:

So it was recently brought to my attention (by my own wandering thoughts, thanks brain) that if I was asked to clearly define what exactly God's grace is and how it works and where one can find it and how it shows up in life for the believer to a nonbeliever, I wouldn't know how exactly to define it for them (and I'm a little fuzzy on a correct definition for myself). I'd be interested if you guys could help me find a good answer not just for me but if it comes up in a conversation with someone who has questions...

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God's Grace is something that we have/receive that we don't deserve.

This is Jesus Christ Himself. John 3:16, Ephesians 2:8
The other thing...is time. Matthew 6:27

The Throne of Grace is...Jesus Christ. Hebrews 4:16
For the unbeliever? Time...is what is given to them to make the best decision they could ever make.
To choose Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

twin1954 said:

First remove the beam in your own eye before you try to take the splinter out of mine. You cannot show me from the Scriptures, which I have extensively read and studied for many years, that we are ever to examine each other. No if we see a brother fall we are to pick him up and remember the Gospel is about forgiveness. We are told to let the tares grow with the wheat because we can't tell the difference. Much harm has come from the unbiblical way that discipline has been used in the so-called church. My sin is between my and Christ not between me and you. I am to encourage you in faith and walk beside you in love but never to judge what you do or do not do.

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The problem is, IMHO is that most people do not know another person well enough to even have a valid rebuke or know the person's life enough to have the knowledge to rebuke.

To most people it is a 'hit and run' type of thing. They think they know the other person and so they 'rebuke and run' but if anyone is not willing to stand with the other person long enough to edify and lift them up in the rebuke and help them come back from whatever the rebuke is, then that person is not truly loving.

The person many times does not know the facts, but what they have either heard or perceive. If anything most true rebuke should come from situations we have had with the person so our facts our reliable..

derpytia said:

So it was recently brought to my attention (by my own wandering thoughts, thanks brain) that if I was asked to clearly define what exactly God's grace is and how it works and where one can find it and how it shows up in life for the believer to a nonbeliever, I wouldn't know how exactly to define it for them (and I'm a little fuzzy on a correct definition for myself). I'd be interested if you guys could help me find a good answer not just for me but if it comes up in a conversation with someone who has questions...

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Grace is basically "God's favor freely extended towards man." You could lengthen the definition and still fit with the sense of the Greek to "God's favor freely extended towards man, because he is disposed to bless and be near us."

Many use the shorter "unmerited favor," which is decent, but the emphasis in the Greek is on God's inclination towards us to freely share benefits and not specifically on the recipient's lack of merit. Favor "regardless of merit" might be slightly closer.

Here are just a few of the many ways that Grace is given to man:


Grace is Christ; the gift of God; God revealed. (Heb 1:3, I Cor 1:4-5, John 4:10)
Grace is salvation offered to all people in Christ: (Titus 2:11, John 12:3-33, Matt 4:12-17, Psalm 67:1-3)
Grace is salvation granted through faith (Eph 2:8-10, Rom 5:1-2, Joel 2:32), not by works of law.
Grace is Christ delivered to death that we might live: (Rom 4:25, Gal 2:20-21, Rom 5:6-8)
Grace is the gift of justification; being declared righteous; through Christ: (Rom 5:12-19)
Grace is pardon from God's wrath, and reconciliation with God: (Rom 5:6-11)
Grace is eternal life granted to those who believe: (John 3:16-17, Rom 6:23, John 1:1-3)
Grace is the Holy Spirit dwelling with us: (Acts 19:2, Eph 4:30, I Cor 6:19)
Grace is our transformation as a New Creation, growing up into the headship of Christ: (Gal 6:16, II Cor 5:17, Col 3:5-11)
Grace is our adoption as sons: (Gal 4:4-6, Rom 8:15))

derpytia said:

So it was recently brought to my attention (by my own wandering thoughts, thanks brain) that if I was asked to clearly define what exactly God's grace is and how it works and where one can find it and how it shows up in life for the believer to a nonbeliever, I wouldn't know how exactly to define it for them (and I'm a little fuzzy on a correct definition for myself). I'd be interested if you guys could help me find a good answer not just for me but if it comes up in a conversation with someone who has questions...

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The grace talked about is unmerited and you cannot obtain it by works Ephesians 2:8-9; John 3:16.

However, it is conditional. See John 3:16 closely at this part:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

The "should not" means that it is conditional. You must OBEY the gospel in order to be in God's good graces. See 2 Thessalonians 1:8; John 14:15, 21; and James 2:14-26.

So you can't "earn" the unmerited grace through work, but you must do work to obey the gospel as a condition for the unmerited grace. Let me give an example:

If a friend calls you and says "I have a gift for you. A free gift. All you need do is come here to get it."

Did you earn that gift? No. It was given to you for free.

Is there conditions to receive that "free" gift? Yes. You need to go get it or you will not receive it.

Is that gift just going to appear suddenly if you wish it too? No. You have to get off your butt and drive to your friends house and receive it.

That is what the "unmerited grace" is. It is a free gift we didn't "earn" but under condition you need to obey to receive that free gift (James 2:14-26).

Belief is a work John 6:29. Faith/belief is an action on our part. Also, spreading the gospel is a work commanded to us by Jesus Matthew 28:18-20.

So, grace (Ephesians 2:8-9) is conditional (John 3:16 ["should not"]; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 ["Those who do not know;Those who do not obey"])

JacksBratt said:

Grace: Getting something that you do not deserve. In the context of the sinner, which is every human being, it's getting eternal life, which we do not deserve and can never earn in any possible human way.

Mercy: NOT getting something you DO deserve. In the context of the sinner, we are NOT getting punishment for our sins. Christ has mercy on us and gives us His Grace, if we accept His gift of pardon from our rightful punishment. -

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While mercy is not getting something that you do deserve, that is not all it is because it comes with the expectation that we will turn from our sins. For example, in Matthew 18:21-35, the servant who received mercy was expect to reflect that attribute of their master, and when he did not, the master reinstated his debt. In other words, mercy is withholding judgement in order to give us time to repent, to turn from our ways and back to His ways.

Likewise, everyone who found grace or unmerited favor in the Bible was someone that God was teaching to walk in His ways who was responding in faith. God favors us by teaching us how to rightly live in a way that will prosper us, so again the expectation is that we will then practice obedience by faith.

God's grace is a participation in - a human sharing in - God's divine life. This gift to us of a share in His life is the spiritual power that enables us to hear Him, to trust and believe in Him, to begin to know and love Him, to begin to come into a saving relationship with Him.

Soyeong said:

While mercy is not getting something that you do deserve, that is not all it is because it comes with the expectation that we will turn from our sins. For example, in Matthew 18:21-35, the servant who received mercy was expect to reflect that attribute of their master, and when he did not, the master reinstated his debt. In other words, mercy is withholding judgement in order to give us time to repent, to turn from our ways and back to His ways.

Likewise, everyone who found grace or unmerited favor in the Bible was someone that God was teaching to walk in His ways who was responding in faith. God favors us by teaching us how to rightly live in a way that will prosper us, so again the expectation is that we will then practice obedience by faith.

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I understand what you are saying, however, mercy doesn't always come with a condition.

I agree, with Christ, we are taught that we will be judged by the same set of rules, regulations, meter, expectations and conditions that we judged others by...

Mercy in this case, Christ's way, does come with the expectation that once you receive mercy from Him, you must show it to others. We are to apply Christ's methods and metrics when we are dealing with others. Simple forgiveness without conditions. With the expectation to show this same to those who wrong us.

Pretty sweet really, Christ using your own method that you applied to others in this life, to judge you.

derpytia said:

So it was recently brought to my attention (by my own wandering thoughts, thanks brain) that if I was asked to clearly define what exactly God's grace is and how it works and where one can find it and how it shows up in life for the believer to a nonbeliever, I wouldn't know how exactly to define it for them (and I'm a little fuzzy on a correct definition for myself). I'd be interested if you guys could help me find a good answer not just for me but if it comes up in a conversation with someone who has questions...

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Grace is unmerited favor. It is receiving from God that which you do not deserve and cannot earn. It is solely based in God and His love, it is based on nothing in the creature (human). Grace, as shown in the Bible is being given the righteousness of Jesus Christ, without which, no one will stand before God. God's grace is also completely sufficient, lacking in nothing. There is nothing we can add to it. Moreover, when a believer in Jesus Christ is given God's grace, it is fully and completely given to the believer. A believer cannot gain extra grace throughout life, because He grace is sufficient and complete. No more grace will be given to the believer, because there is no need to get more grace.

Those who would claim you merit additional grace through a sacramental system are teaching a false gospel. Those who teach grace is meted out through some sacerdotal priesthood are also teaching a false gospel, because grace comes from God and God alone.

We get our english word "charity" from the Greek "charis." Another word that comes to mind is benevolence. God' grace is his unmerited favor torwards mankind.

JoeP222w said:

Those who would claim you merit additional grace through a sacramental system are teaching a false gospel. Those who teach grace is meted out through some sacerdotal priesthood are also teaching a false gospel, because grace comes from God and God alone.

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Agreed that grace comes from God and God alone. Just out of curiosity, which sacrament do you feel is the most ill-advisable for a believer over the course of their spiritual life and growth? If the answer is "none" then I would say, I know a good place to do those things where they are given their proper place and reverence. But to each their own

John 3:8

Petros2015 said:

Agreed that grace comes from God and God alone. Just out of curiosity, which sacrament do you feel is the most ill-advisable for a believer over the course of their spiritual life and growth? If the answer is "none" then I would say, I know a good place to do those things where they are given their proper place and reverence. But to each their own

John 3:8

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God enacted the 2 ordinances of the church, Baptism and the Lord's Supper. These are not sacramental, in the sense that they bestow extra (or additional) grace on the believer. These are ordinances, or practices that they church is to follow to remember key moments in the life of Christ, that all believers in Jesus Christ are to partake in, out of remembrance and obedience, but not because that give additional grace to the believer.

If don't find anywhere in the Bible where God commands sacramental practices that bestow additional grace to the believer, to do so is to say that God's grace (of the cross) is insufficient, and following such false practices can place a tremendous burden on people, since they will never know if they have enough grace to gain entrance to Heaven under such a system.

derpytia said:

So it was recently brought to my attention (by my own wandering thoughts, thanks brain) that if I was asked to clearly define what exactly God's grace is and how it works and where one can find it and how it shows up in life for the believer to a nonbeliever, I wouldn't know how exactly to define it for them (and I'm a little fuzzy on a correct definition for myself). I'd be interested if you guys could help me find a good answer not just for me but if it comes up in a conversation with someone who has questions...

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Here's an example of grace, but if you don't give grace you won't get it.
Like it says in James chapter 4 there is only one law giver and judge the one who is able to save or destroy.
So who am I to judge anyone, I should only love.
Jonah chapter 4
11 And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left—and also many animals?”
Galatians chapter 5 verse 6
The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love.