Defining Christianity

Jane_Doe said:

Ok. Sorry for that Ran (I get so distracted sometimes, my apologies).

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No problem.

AV1611VET said:

Why?

Paul addresses us saints in his writings.

Do they apply to me as well?

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The topic isn't what Paul called people. The topic is what and who is a Christian as defined by the Bible and which doctrines are essential to salvation. Unless you have a scriptural source that directly equates the terms Christian and Saint you will need to start a different thread to discuss the matter.

Looking at the Nicene Creed again, here are the next two points.

the Father (Matthew 6:9)

9. After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

The manner of prayer is important, but nothing here is mentioned about it being necessary for salvation. The only other point that is made with this verse is to place God in heaven - the knowing of which is also not necessary for salvation.


Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)

3. And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.

This verse gives the names of God Almighty and Jehova to the entity that appeared unto Abrahan, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses. Important information, but one again nothing is mentioned about having to know this in order to be saved.

Sojourner1 said:

The Nicene Creed (with scriptural references)

We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
. . .

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Here is how the Nicene Creed has scored with essential doctrines (doctrines necessary for salvation).

Romans 10: 8-10 (Yes)
1 John 4: 15 (No)
Deuteronomy 6: 4 (No)
Ephesians 4: 6 (No)
Matthew 6: 9 (No)
Exodus 6: 3 (No)

I admit that these verses present important principles and applaud the churches who use them for identifying what it is they believe.

Sojourner1 said:

You're examining the Nicene Creed incorrectly. The Creed is summarizing the essential beliefs about God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, it is a summary of Christian doctrine. The beliefs within the Creed must be accepted (believed fully) in order to be labeled a Christian. If person says they are a Christian, and yet they don't believe that Jesus is God, that He has always existed (deity of Christ) and that God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are One (Trinity), then they don't "believe" the gospel of Christ. They may follow everything that Jesus taught about loving one another, and call themselves a disciple, but if they don't believe that Jesus is who He says He is, then they aren't saved.

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To begin with, the OP is what decides if I am examining the Nicene Creed correctly or not. The OP states " . . .which define what is necessary for salvation as opposed to simply ancillary beliefs which are left open for the individual and various denominations to interpret?" I have examined the Nicene Creed based on the criteria that I listed in the OP. So your claim is incorrect.

Secondly, the verses that have been posted to support the Nicene Creed don't, for the most part, make any statement about what must be accepted or fully believed in order to be labeled a Christian. That's the whole point of this thread. Your claim that it the Nicene Creed defines what a person must believe in order to be a Christian is a man-made construct. It is not supported by the Bible. Christians, both individually and as denominations, keep claiming that these essential beliefs define what and who is a Christian, but so far in this thread no direct evidence has been given to support those claims. Which is because it doesn't exist. I keep waiting to see the verses which state you must believe this to be a Christian. When are you going to present something substantial to support your claim? Let's start with your claims in this post.

1. Post a scripture which states the beliefs within the Nicene Creed must be accepted in order to be a Christian.

2. Post a scripture which states that a person must believe that Jesus is God in order to believe the gospel of Christ.

3. Post a scripture which states that a person must believe that Jesus always existed in order to believe the gospel of Christ.

4. Post a scripture which states that a person must believe the Trinity in order to believe the gospel of Christ.

5. Post a scripture which states that a person must believe Jesus is who He says He is in order to be saved.


If you want I can go over the scriptures which actually list what must be believed and done in order to be saved and compare it to the list above.

fatboys said:

We believe that Jesus is God. We believe that he has always existed. We beleive that God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are one God. That you can refer to God and mean all three unless specifically stated other wise.

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This is not a thread about LDS beliefs. In fact, this is not a forum where LDS doctrines are allowed to be discussed. I realize that this is pertinent to the discussion, but please move these sorts of comments to another thread. I don't want my thread shut down because of forum violations.

Thank you.

Ran77 said:

1. Post a scripture which states the beliefs within the Nicene Creed must be accepted in order to be a Christian.

2. Post a scripture which states that a person must believe that Jesus is God in order to believe the gospel of Christ.

3. Post a scripture which states that a person must believe that Jesus always existed in order to believe the gospel of Christ.

4. Post a scripture which states that a person must believe the Trinity in order to believe the gospel of Christ.

5. Post a scripture which states that a person must believe Jesus is who He says He is (which is incredibly vague) in order to be saved.


If you want I can go over the scriptures which actually list what must be believed and done in order to be saved and compare it to the list above.

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Here are the verses we have discussed so far that actually list doctrines essential for salvation.

1) Only those who are reborn of water and spirit can enter the kingdom of God. (John 3: 3)

2) Those who confess Jesus and believe in their hearts that God raised him from the dead will be saved. (Romans 10: 9)

3) Only those who do the will of Heavenly Father shall enter the kingdom of God. (Matthew 7: 21)


Only one of these items lists believing a specific item in order to be saved, unlike your list. Those who believe that Jesus was raised from the dead will be saved. I know that more scriptures exist which give items that are necessary for salvation, but what we have uncovered so far does not support your claims. I doubt that most of your claims can be supported from the Bible. That's the whole point of this thread.

If you have Biblical support for your claims I'd like to see it.

Sojourner1 said:

You're examining the Nicene Creed incorrectly. The Creed is summarizing the essential beliefs about God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, it is a summary of Christian doctrine. The beliefs within the Creed must be accepted (believed fully) in order to be labeled a Christian. If person says they are a Christian, and yet they don't believe that Jesus is God, that He has always existed (deity of Christ) and that God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are One (Trinity), then they don't "believe" the gospel of Christ. They may follow everything that Jesus taught about loving one another, and call themselves a disciple, but if they don't believe that Jesus is who He says He is, then they aren't saved.

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I'd also like to point out that you keep comparing being a Christian to being saved as if they are the same thing. They are not. Let's see some scripture verses that support your view.

Winken said:

You're drowning in semantics, Ran. Don't expect us to dive in with you.

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I'm dealing in facts rather than man-made opinions. If you don't want to participate - don't. No need to tell me you're not going to dive in.

Sojourner1 said:

The Nicene Creed (with scriptural references)

Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)

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Time for the next batch of Nicene Creeds.

Genesis 1:1

1. 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

The verse supports the belief that God created the heaven and earth, but there is no mention in the entire chapter that a person must believe this in order to be saved.


Colossians 1: 15-16

15. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

More scriptural support that God created the heaven and earth and all things therein. It also mentions that Jesus is the firstborn of every creature (a separate topic). No mention that a person must believe this in order to be saved.


Acts 11: 17

14. Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15. And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

When read in context these verses it discusses the matter of gentiles joining the church and if the gift was given to them (the gentiles) by God who were they to oppose the matter. I'm not sure how that supposedly demonstrates "And in One Lord Jesus Christ." However, there is again no mention of anything that is required for salvation.


Mathew 14: 33

33. Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Jesus is the son of God. No mention of having to believe this in order to be saved--at least, not in this chapter.


Mathew 16: 16

15. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

More scriptures which support the belief that Jesus is the Son of God. Some other good stuff in there, but nothing about what has to be believed or done in order to be saved.


John 1: 18

17. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

18. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Jesus in the only begotten Son of God. Jesus declares God. No one has seen God. (Why can we see Jesus if He is God? How this works against the belief of One God is a topic for another thread.) Nothing in the chapter states that a person has to believe or do anything in order to be saved.


John 3: 16

14. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15. That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Ah-ha. Salvation is mentioned here. Those who believe in Jesus should have everlasting life. I notice it doesn't say "believe in a certain version of Jesus" as is often mentioned by the various Christians. Just simply to believe in Him.

The Nicene Creed obviously is meant to outline the belief system of those who use it as part of their worship. It doesn't define who is Christian. It doesn't define which of the doctrines are essential to salvation. It is simply a we-believe-this list.

Are there any other creeds that we can examine?

Sojourner1 said:

James 2:18-19
But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

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What is it you think this supports? It certainly doesn't contradict my comments.