Define Reasonable Suspicion

[ZephyrWiccan]

Started this because of some of the phrasing I've seen on forums and heard in debates on TV involving this new Arizona law:

Other than seeing illegal immigrants crossing the border, what is "reasonable suspicion" that someone is an illegal immigrant?

 

[allhart]

Started this because of some of the phrasing I've seen on forums and heard in debates on TV involving this new Arizona law:

Other than seeing illegal immigrants crossing the border, what is "reasonable suspicion" that someone is an illegal immigrant?

What is insanity is progressives are assuming racial profiling before the fact and immigration policy has nothing to do with protecting our border. MEANING immigration doesn't have anything to do with illegals breaking our laws. I think multiple immigrants in a loaded down truck that doesn't speak English is reasonable suspicion!

 

[tulc]

Started this because of some of the phrasing I've seen on forums and heard in debates on TV involving this new Arizona law:

Other than seeing illegal immigrants crossing the border, what is "reasonable suspicion" that someone is an illegal immigrant?

uhmmm...walking while being un-American?
tulc(thinks suspiciously non-American clothing is another give away)

 

[Willtor]

uhmmm...walking while being un-American?
tulc(thinks suspiciously non-American clothing is another give away)

I'm not clear on how this sort of law could be used in any way that is _not_ profiling...

 

[ZephyrWiccan]

What is insanity is progressives are assuming racial profiling before the fact and immigration policy has nothing to do with protecting our border.

I see. No racial profiling is being done then? Interesting.

Then what about your example of something you think is "reasonable suspicion" which blatantly racially profiles people in a truck ("immigrants" and "don't speak English")?

I don't know about that. Sounds a LOT like racial profiling, but perhaps I'm wrong....

MEANING immigration doesn't have anything to do with illegals breaking our laws.

I'm not aware that I said it did..... So I'm confused as to why you posted this sentence....

I think multiple immigrants in a loaded down truck that doesn't speak English is reasonable suspicion!

I wasn't aware of any truck that could speak English......

But, okay, you say a truck with immigrants (who don't speak english I'm assuming you say).

1st, how do you know they are immigrants?

2nd, do you simply stop any truck with these "immigrant-looking" people that is "loaded down" for any particular reason, or is it fine to just do it because it is "loaded down" with these people?

IOW, would you support stopping a truck that looks like that without it committing any traffic violations?


3rd, when did speaking english become a requirement to be a citizen or criteria for being stopped?

 

[ZephyrWiccan]

uhmmm...walking while being un-American?

LOL. Anyone that doesn't moonwalk!

tulc(thinks suspiciously non-American clothing is another give away)

Ah, well then, they should just wear American flag shirts then and they won't be suspected...

 

[ZephyrWiccan]

I'm not clear on how this sort of law could be used in any way that is _not_ profiling...

I would tend to agree. I can't think of a way either....

 

[Macx]

I'm not clear on how this sort of law could be used in any way that is _not_ profiling...

You pull some one over for expired tags, broken tail light, illegal left turn. . . whatever. When you ask them for their DL, they don't speak English so you ask them for their DL in Spanish and they can't/won't produce one (Driving without a valid DL itself is illegal) That meets the standard for conducting a warrant check, generally anyone else in the vehicle will be checked at the same time. While not having a DL as a passenger is not a crime . . . it makes checking for warrants difficult.

(the above is how the law stood before the change in AZ law)

The Arizona Law is here: http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,​

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WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON.​

You were going to check everybody for outstanding warrants anyhow, now the law suggests that you check for warrants and citizenship.

B. IN THE ENFORCEMENT OF THIS SECTION, THE FINAL DETERMINATION OF AN​

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ALIEN'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE DETERMINED BY EITHER:​

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1. A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER WHO IS AUTHORIZED BY THE FEDERAL​

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GOVERNMENT TO VERIFY OR ASCERTAIN AN ALIEN'S IMMIGRATION STATUS.​

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2. A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OR AGENCY COMMUNICATING WITH THE UNITED STATES IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT OR THE UNITED STATES BORDER PROTECTION PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).​

It really is not some bill designed to harass people for walking on the sidewalk while Mexican-looking. . . They already had the Terry Search for that.

 

[allhart]

I see. No racial profiling is being done then? Interesting.

Then what about your example of something you think is "reasonable suspicion" which blatantly racially profiles people in a truck ("immigrants" and "don't speak English")?

I don't know about that. Sounds a LOT like racial profiling, but perhaps I'm wrong....

I'm not aware that I said it did..... So I'm confused as to why you posted this sentence....

I wasn't aware of any truck that could speak English......

But, okay, you say a truck with immigrants (who don't speak english I'm assuming you say).

1st, how do you know they are immigrants?

2nd, do you simply stop any truck with these "immigrant-looking" people that is "loaded down" for any particular reason, or is it fine to just do it because it is "loaded down" with these people?

IOW, would you support stopping a truck that looks like that without it committing any traffic violations?


3rd, when did speaking english become a requirement to be a citizen or criteria for being stopped?

Common sense will tell you, but oh maybe you want to be so PC that you will over look common sense, your safety, more like others safety. For it was in your face you would have a different attitude! I will call profiling ethnic back ground perception! I call spades a spade, not a joker! Just like they didn't do in Fort Hood.......Most of the problems are stemming from Mexican nationals......NO? You think anyone that gets asked for their paper that isn't an Illegal would be thankful we are being protected from harm as long as law enforcement is respectful and approach is tactful, but if not i would rather have hurt pride than a dead body!

 

[ZephyrWiccan]

Common sense will tell you, but oh maybe you want to be so PC that you will over look common sense! I call it perception! I call spades a spade, not a joker! Just like they didn't do in Fort Hood.......

So you cannot answer these simple questions? Fair enough, that's too bad though.

As to your attempt to use a tragedy like Fort Hood to win points in some strange way (no idea what way either - Fort Hood has nothing to do with the discussion at hand), that's simply beyond the pale, and you should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[allhart]

So you cannot answer these simple questions? Fair enough, that's too bad though.

As to your attempt to use a tragedy like Fort Hood to win points in some strange way (no idea what way either - Fort Hood has nothing to do with the discussion at hand), that's simply beyond the pale, and you should be ashamed of yourself.

I call it as I see it. PC will be the death of us! Ya'll know Mexico doesn't put up with the Spaniards......We can't even ask if your illegal or not on the bases of securing our safety and I should be concerned about my pride or my fellow countrymen or even soon to be legal countrymen! Why do you even lock your house up or car up at night or even have police in the first place if their not to enforce our Federal or state laws?

 

[ZephyrWiccan]

I call it as I see it. PC will be the death of us! Ya'll know Mexico doesn't put up with the Spaniards......We can't even ask if your illegal or not on the bases of securing our safety and I should be concerned about my pride or my fellow countrymen or even soon to be legal countrymen! Why do you even lock your house up or car up at night or even have police in the first place if their not to enforce our Federal or state laws?

What are you ranting about now? Can you still not answer my questions to you in my first response to you?

And what does Fort Hood have to do with anything? Why would you bring that incident up?

 

[ZephyrWiccan]

What are you ranting about now? Can you still not answer my questions to you in my first response to you?

And what does Fort Hood have to do with anything? Why would you bring that incident up?

Here are teh questions again if you missed them:
But, okay, you say a truck with immigrants (who don't speak english I'm assuming you say).

1st, how do you know they are immigrants?

2nd, do you simply stop any truck with these "immigrant-looking" people that is "loaded down" for any particular reason, or is it fine to just do it because it is "loaded down" with these people?

IOW, would you support stopping a truck that looks like that without it committing any traffic violations?


3rd, when did speaking english become a requirement to be a citizen or criteria for being stopped?

 

[allhart]

Here are teh questions again if you missed them:
But, okay, you say a truck with immigrants (who don't speak english I'm assuming you say).

1st, how do you know they are immigrants?

2nd, do you simply stop any truck with these "immigrant-looking" people that is "loaded down" for any particular reason, or is it fine to just do it because it is "loaded down" with these people?

IOW, would you support stopping a truck that looks like that without it committing any traffic violations?


3rd, when did speaking english become a requirement to be a citizen or criteria for being stopped?

If by saying that 100% on the Mexican border are Mexicans coming over the border and by chance asking some legal resident to be uncomfortable, by asking for papers, for the safety sake of the whole,so be it! Quit acting like it ain't a reasonable perception! Just like Jihad ain't a Syrian perception. Be realistic...I'm a realist! The only reason i can see that someone might be upset if their in the wrong or doing wrong!

 

[ZephyrWiccan]

If by saying that 100% on the Mexican border are Mexicans coming over the border and by chance asking some legal resident to be uncomfortable, by asking for papers, for the safety sake of the whole,so be it! Quit acting like it ain't a reasonable perception! Just like Jihad ain't a Syrian perception. Be realistic...I'm a realist!

If you were a realist, you wouldn't be dodging my questions. Is it that you can't answer them?

And again, why did you bring up Fort Hood? Or can't you answer that either?

 

[allhart]

If you were a realist, you wouldn't be dodging my questions. Is it that you can't answer them?

And again, why did you bring up Fort Hood? Or can't you answer that either?

The only reason i can see that someone might be upset if their in the wrong or doing wrong!

 

[ZephyrWiccan]

The only reason i can see that someone might be upset if their in the wrong or doing wrong!

Upset about what? Why can you not answer the questions?

Why did you bring up Fort Hood which has nothing to do with illegal immigration?

 

[allhart]

If you were a realist, you wouldn't be dodging my questions. Is it that you can't answer them?

And again, why did you bring up Fort Hood? Or can't you answer that either?

I brought up Fort Hood on the effect of PC. Profiling isn't a bad thing on the Border or as the FBI does it for Serial killers or any other bad doing!! The norms or consistence's in putting a puzzle of crime away!

 

[ZephyrWiccan]

I brought up Fort Hood on the effect of PC. Profiling isn't a bad thing on the Border or as the FBI does it for Serial killers or any other bad doing!!

Okay, so you brought it up for something we aren't discussing. I see.

Last I checked, my thread was about reasonable suspicion, and what qualifies. If you want to talk about PC and Fort Hood, take it to another thread.

Now, can you answer my other questions?

 

[allhart]

Okay, so you brought it up for something we aren't discussing. I see.

Last I checked, my thread was about reasonable suspicion, and what qualifies. If you want to talk about PC and Fort Hood, take it to another thread.

Now, can you answer my other questions?

Safety then Quality! I think if your not a known resident and are Mexican. It is reasonable to ask them for residency! If they don't like it move from the border to a less profound, effected or precocious area.High profile area is the words I'm look for lol!