Defending devotion to the Saints

[Ave Maria]

I am posting this thread to defend the practice of devotion to and veneration of the Saints. Devotion to and veneration of the Saints are one and the same thing. Many people pray novenas to the Saints which is a series of 9 days of prayers. There is also a 54 day Rosary Novena to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

We do not pray to the saints but instead we ask them to pray for us. We do not pray to them like we would to God but instead we talk to them and ask them to pray for us. It is the same thing as asking someone here on earth to pray for you. The saints are confirmed by the Catholic Church to be very holy people who once lived on earth and who are now in Heaven. Since they are so holy and are now in Heaven, their prayers for us are very effective.

Often people think that kneeling before statues of saints is idolatry. This is not true. By kneeling before the statues of them we are venerating an image of the saint. We are not worshiping them. It is different than kneeling before the Eucharist Who is Jesus Christ, God. It lies in the motive behind kneeling. When a person kneels before a statue of a saint they have the motive or intention of venerating the saint, not of worshiping the saint. However, if one kneels before the Eucharist then they are kneeling to worship God. Their motive or intention is to worship God. It all lies in the state of mind with which you are kneeling. No one kneels before a statue of a saint with the intention of worshiping the saint or the statue. They have the intention of venerating the saint.

Veneration is basically honoring the saint. You know how people honor the founding fathers of the United States? It is very similar to that. We honor the saints because they were very holy people. We do not worship them. Honoring someone is not the same as worshiping them. Again, it lies in the state of mind. One has a different state of mind when venerating a saint than what they do when they worship God.

The Christian Church, the Catholic Church, which has existed since the time of Jesus has always practiced veneration of the saints. You can confirm this by reading the writings of the early Church fathers.

I will not discuss Marian devotion in this thread because it is a somewhat different topic. However, if someone brings up a question about devotion to Mary I will try to answer it as best I can. If I can't answer the question then hopefully another Catholic will.

Does anyone have any questions about devotion to the Saints? If you do, feel free to ask and I will do my best to answer.

 

[Ave Maria]

I also wanted to include a couple of links for people to learn more but I forgot to include them. Here they are:

Immaculate Conception and Assumption | Catholic Answers

Mary: Ever Virgin | Catholic Answers

Mary: "Full of Grace" | Catholic Answers

The Rosary | Catholic Answers

The Intercession of the Saints | Catholic Answers

Praying to the Saints | Catholic Answers

Saint Worship? | Catholic Answers

Do Catholics Worship Statues? | Catholic Answers

Relics | Catholic Answers

Private Revelation | Catholic Answers

Frequently Asked Questions about Saints - Saints & Angels - Catholic Online

 

[Zeek]

Does anyone have any questions about devotion to the Saints? If you do, feel free to ask and I will do my best to answer.

Hi AM,

A couple of things;

When you have to repeat that devotion to the Saints is not worship of the Saints, I think it says something about how this veneration is almost universally perceived by non-Catholics.

How can you guarantee people are not crossing the line from devotion to worship in vaious countries?...I have lived all over the world, and have seen what looks like worship going on.

How do you account for the words in so many prayers and hymn devoted to Mary that categorically fall into what is without doubt worship?

Have you ever thought that the word 'veneration' is just a religious word that hides what is really going on with some people?

Can you define and give examples of what is worship and what is veneration?

That should be enough to be getting on with, thank you for posting and please be assured that any disagreement is nothing personal.

In Jesus. Zazal

 

[Kristos]

I have witness what I perceived as abuse, but I know that I cannot see the heart, so I try not to judge - I think that often people who have not experienced liturgical worship might be more inclined to see worship in veneration. From the context of liturgical worship, many praise services that are held up as worship look more like veneration to me. Is God really only worthy of veneration I might say...

Within a secular context, we venerate all the wrong people - sports heros, TV personalities, actors, musicians, politicians - I say the wrong people, but really it's for the wrong reasons because they might actually be worthy of veneration but that would have nothing to do with their popularity or worldly success. There is always a tendency, perhaps even a need to hold up those who have achieved to a greater degree than us as an example. Scripture commands that same for us - to respect and imitate our leaders, those who are most spiritual among us. Of course this should not be an individual matter, rather the Body should be recognizing those among us who are worthy of veneration. Can this be abused - of course it can - just like all of creation has been abused, but God still created it. In my mind there really is not an option because scripture tells us to do it. Yes, we must maintain a proper understanding and the church should be responsible for this. Perceived abuses should be questioned according to the scriptural process and in the end the church has the last say. If the church says this is veneration and not worship, then who am I to contradict. I only know my own heart.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I think veneration is a very slippery slope which can easily lead some into worship. I have known some agnostics who venerated Jesus Christ as a good person but certainly not God Incarnate. Over time their veneration led them into outright worship and they became Christians.

 

[narnia59]

I think veneration is a very slippery slope which can easily lead some into worship. I have known some agnostics who venerated Jesus Christ as a good person but certainly not God Incarnate. Over time their veneration led them into outright worship and they became Christians.

What you've described of their experience is only a 'slippery slope' if their worship of Jesus Christ is yet rooted in their view that Jesus is a good person but not God Incarnate. If they were convicted that Christ is indeed God Incarnate they did not experience a 'slippery slope' because they honored him as a person as you seem to imply; rather they experienced a conversion due to conviction by the Holy Spirit.

For those that know Jesus is God and the saints are not -- there is no need to be concerned about a 'slippery slope'. So we can adhere to St. Paul's admonition to honor people like Epaphroditus without fear. If one cannot discern the difference within their own mind however I can understand why they need to refrain. Simply can't understand why they think everyone else lacks the same ability to discern.

 

[narnia59]

I have witness what I perceived as abuse, but I know that I cannot see the heart, so I try not to judge - I think that often people who have not experienced liturgical worship might be more inclined to see worship in veneration. From the context of liturgical worship, many praise services that are held up as worship look more like veneration to me. Is God really only worthy of veneration I might say...

Within a secular context, we venerate all the wrong people - sports heros, TV personalities, actors, musicians, politicians - I say the wrong people, but really it's for the wrong reasons because they might actually be worthy of veneration but that would have nothing to do with their popularity or worldly success. There is always a tendency, perhaps even a need to hold up those who have achieved to a greater degree than us as an example. Scripture commands that same for us - to respect and imitate our leaders, those who are most spiritual among us. Of course this should not be an individual matter, rather the Body should be recognizing those among us who are worthy of veneration. Can this be abused - of course it can - just like all of creation has been abused, but God still created it. In my mind there really is not an option because scripture tells us to do it. Yes, we must maintain a proper understanding and the church should be responsible for this. Perceived abuses should be questioned according to the scriptural process and in the end the church has the last say. If the church says this is veneration and not worship, then who am I to contradict. I only know my own heart.

It's my view that part of the 'perception' where some view others as worshipping is often based in cultural differences. Most of the roots of Protestantism are in cultures that are generally more reserved and less outwardly expressive in all aspects of their life, including religious worship.

For example, my son has experienced some terrific sport venues in the US to include the best of college and professional football and basketball. When he was 18 he went to France and was in Paris during some important soccer match. He experienced and literally got carried away in an impromptu 'pep rally' in the streets of Paris. He said he'd never experienced anything that intense (from his perspective) and found it a little frightening -- to the French it was simply normal expression.

Some evangelicals have become more expressive in religious worship over the last decades, and therefore equate that with 'worship'. Nonetheless, they still have a lot of Puritan based roots in their culture. So, when they witness the expressiveness of the Hispanic Catholic culture in relation to the saints for example, they're certain they're seeing worship. In reality, it's simply a much more expressive culture in general, especially in family relationships, which in their view, is what the saints are.

The real question is -- does the person recognize that God is the 'source' of all that the saints have become, and they are sharing in His glory that he has extended by grace? If so, the line is clearly drawn for them. For others to be so certain it's been crossed is indeed quite mind boggling and more a reflection of their own cultural experience and biases and trying to normalize the rest of the world to align with their 'rules' for appropriate expression.

 

[Ave Maria]

Hi AM,

A couple of things;

When you have to repeat that devotion to the Saints is not worship of the Saints, I think it says something about how this veneration is almost universally perceived by non-Catholics.

How can you guarantee people are not crossing the line from devotion to worship in vaious countries?...I have lived all over the world, and have seen what looks like worship going on.

How do you account for the words in so many prayers and hymn devoted to Mary that categorically fall into what is without doubt worship?

Have you ever thought that the word 'veneration' is just a religious word that hides what is really going on with some people?

Can you define and give examples of what is worship and what is veneration?

That should be enough to be getting on with, thank you for posting and please be assured that any disagreement is nothing personal.

In Jesus. Zazal

Hello Zazal. Unfortunately I think you are misinterpreting the words in the prayers and the things that people are doing when they venerate teh saints. It may look like worship on the outside but believe me, it is definitely not worship. Now, if any Catholic does worship the saints then they are unorthodox and are not in good standing with the Church. A faithful and orthodox Catholic would never worship the saints. May I ask what prayers in particular you have trouble with?

 

[Ave Maria]

I think veneration is a very slippery slope which can easily lead some into worship. I have known some agnostics who venerated Jesus Christ as a good person but certainly not God Incarnate. Over time their veneration led them into outright worship and they became Christians.

I don't agree with this. As long as person has the state of mind and the intention to venerate then they are not going to slip into worship. In order to worship one must have the intention to worship. If one has the intention to venerate then that is what they are doing and not worshiping. There is a very clear difference between veneration and worship. I don't know of a single Catholic that would slip into worship when they are intending to venerate.

 

[Ave Maria]

I just thought of an example to describe what I am trying to say. Let's say a wife has a husband who is overseas fighting in Afghanistan in the military. She takes a picture of her husband and kisses the picture. She is definitely not worshiping her husband but is rather thinking of him and missing him. Her kissing the picture is an act that demonstrates she is thinking of him and missing him but that does not make it worship just because she kissed the picture.

It is similar with the saints. One might kiss a statue of Saint Joseph as an example. However, that simply means that the person is thinking of Saint Joseph and honoring him. They are not worshiping Saint Joseph by kissing the saint unless that is their intention. However, Catholics who kiss a statue of a saint is simply honoring or venerating the saint. That is quite different from worshiping them. Any Catholic who worships a saint is doing something that is condemned by the Church.

Catholics are forbidden to worship Mary or any of the other saints. However, we should honor them and venerate them. Catholics are only allowed to worship God. It is the same with the Orthodox who also believe in the Communion of Saints.

I hope this helps someone understand the issue better.

 

[Standing Up]

I just thought of an example to describe what I am trying to say. Let's say a wife has a husband who is overseas fighting in Afghanistan in the military. She takes a picture of her husband and kisses the picture. She is definitely not worshiping her husband but is rather thinking of him and missing him. Her kissing the picture is an act that demonstrates she is thinking of him and missing him but that does not make it worship just because she kissed the picture.

It is similar with the saints. One might kiss a statue of Saint Joseph as an example. However, that simply means that the person is thinking of Saint Joseph and honoring him. They are not worshiping Saint Joseph by kissing the saint unless that is their intention. However, Catholics who kiss a statue of a saint is simply honoring or venerating the saint. That is quite different from worshiping them. Any Catholic who worships a saint is doing something that is condemned by the Church.

Catholics are forbidden to worship Mary or any of the other saints. However, we should honor them and venerate them. Catholics are only allowed to worship God. It is the same with the Orthodox who also believe in the Communion of Saints.

I hope this helps someone understand the issue better.

Couple of thoughts. Words can be tricky. Meanings unclear. Degrees shifty. Communication undone.

But have you read

Gen. 50:25 And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence.

or

2 Kings 23:16 And as Josiah turned himself, he spied the sepulchres that [were] there in the mount, and sent, and took the bones out of the sepulchres, and burned [them] upon the altar, and polluted it, according to the word of the LORD which the man of God proclaimed, who proclaimed these words.
v18 And he said, Let him alone; let no man move his bones. So they let his bones alone, with the bones of the prophet that came out of Samaria.

So, there is definitely the sense of honor to those who have died "in the faith". Is there more to it? Veneration, prayer, worship, or something?

At the same time, there's also the sense of "cleaning out" the excesses that accumulated over the years (2 Kings 23:16). Or the pole Moses raised that became worshipped; it was destroyed because of the idolatry.

Somewhere there's a peaceful dwelling together for believers.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

Ave Maria,

Personally speaking, I cannot find a sufficient and substantiated scriptural basis for petitioning saints in Heaven for their prayers. We are commanded to test everything against the Scriptures (1 Thessalonians 5:21). Therefore, if I may ask, what Scriptures do you base this belief upon? For the record, I have no qualms with a particular church belief, doctrine, ritual, teaching or tradition as long as these said things are in full agreement with what has been written in the Scriptures. If these said things pertaining to our Christian faith are contradictory to the Scriptures or if said things are not even mentioned in the Scriptures, then I know I must reject them because I believe Scripture, being God-breathed and divinely inspired by God Himself, is the final authority for the Christian faith and practice, as I said here, in one of my previous posts. I do not trust any matter pertaining to the Christian faith and practice that cannot be fully substantiated with what has been written in the Scriptures.

 

[Kristos]

Ave Maria,

Personally speaking, I cannot find a sufficient and substantiated scriptural basis for petitioning saints in Heaven for their prayers. We are commanded to test everything against the Scriptures (1 Thessalonians 5:21). Therefore, if I may ask, what Scriptures do you base this belief upon? For the record, I have no qualms with a particular church belief, doctrine, ritual, teaching or tradition as long as these said things are in full agreement with what has been written in the Scriptures. If these said things pertaining to our Christian faith are contradictory to the Scriptures or if said things are not even mentioned in the Scriptures, then I know I must reject them because I believe Scripture, being God-breathed and divinely inspired by God Himself, is the final authority for the Christian faith and practice, as I said here, in one of my previous posts. I do not trust any matter pertaining to the Christian faith and practice that cannot be fully substantiated with what has been written in the Scriptures.

This is a different subject - the OP is about veneration not supplication.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

Ave Maria,

Personally speaking, I cannot find a sufficient and substantiated scriptural basis for petitioning saints in Heaven for their prayers. We are commanded to test everything against the Scriptures (1 Thessalonians 5:21). Therefore, if I may ask, what Scriptures do you base this belief upon? For the record, I have no qualms with a particular church belief, doctrine, ritual, teaching or tradition as long as these said things are in full agreement with what has been written in the Scriptures. If these said things pertaining to our Christian faith are contradictory to the Scriptures or if said things are not even mentioned in the Scriptures, then I know I must reject them because I believe Scripture, being God-breathed and divinely inspired by God Himself, is the final authority for the Christian faith and practice, as I said here, in one of my previous posts. I do not trust any matter pertaining to the Christian faith and practice that cannot be fully substantiated with what has been written in the Scriptures.

This is a different subject - the OP is about veneration not supplication.

I'm sorry if my post was a different subject, however, I cannot find a sufficient and substantiated scriptural basis for veneration of the saints either.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

I think this video is a very good video to watch on this subject.

Do Catholics Worship Mary? - On The Box

 

[Kristos]

I'm sorry if my post was a different subject, however, I cannot find a sufficient and substantiated scriptural basis for veneration of the saints either.

It's pretty much spelled out - I don't know how you could miss it...

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

It's pretty much spelled out - I don't know how you could miss it...

Well, I have no reason or excuse to why I missed it. I just missed it. Such is life.

 

[Ave Maria]

Couple of thoughts. Words can be tricky. Meanings unclear. Degrees shifty. Communication undone.

But have you read

Gen. 50:25 And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence.

or

2 Kings 23:16 And as Josiah turned himself, he spied the sepulchres that [were] there in the mount, and sent, and took the bones out of the sepulchres, and burned [them] upon the altar, and polluted it, according to the word of the LORD which the man of God proclaimed, who proclaimed these words.
v18 And he said, Let him alone; let no man move his bones. So they let his bones alone, with the bones of the prophet that came out of Samaria.

So, there is definitely the sense of honor to those who have died "in the faith". Is there more to it? Veneration, prayer, worship, or something?

At the same time, there's also the sense of "cleaning out" the excesses that accumulated over the years (2 Kings 23:16). Or the pole Moses raised that became worshipped; it was destroyed because of the idolatry.

Somewhere there's a peaceful dwelling together for believers.

Yes, there is more to honor. Veneration is often when a person asks the saint to pray for them. They are honoring the saint in a way by asking them to pray for them.

Ave Maria,

Personally speaking, I cannot find a sufficient and substantiated scriptural basis for petitioning saints in Heaven for their prayers. We are commanded to test everything against the Scriptures (1 Thessalonians 5:21). Therefore, if I may ask, what Scriptures do you base this belief upon? For the record, I have no qualms with a particular church belief, doctrine, ritual, teaching or tradition as long as these said things are in full agreement with what has been written in the Scriptures. If these said things pertaining to our Christian faith are contradictory to the Scriptures or if said things are not even mentioned in the Scriptures, then I know I must reject them because I believe Scripture, being God-breathed and divinely inspired by God Himself, is the final authority for the Christian faith and practice, as I said here, in one of my previous posts. I do not trust any matter pertaining to the Christian faith and practice that cannot be fully substantiated with what has been written in the Scriptures.

Well, something doesn't have to explicitly be in Scripture in order for it to not be against the Scriptures. That said, here is a page for you that you might be interested in:

Scripture Catholic - SAINTS AND INTERCESSORY PRAYER

That said, the idea that something must be in Scripture for Christians to believe or practice is false. It is an error that the Protestants made called Sola Scriptura.

 

[Standing Up]

Yes, there is more to honor. Veneration is often when a person asks the saint to pray for them. They are honoring the saint in a way by asking them to pray for them.



Well, something doesn't have to explicitly be in Scripture in order for it to not be against the Scriptures. That said, here is a page for you that you might be interested in:

Scripture Catholic - SAINTS AND INTERCESSORY PRAYER

That said, the idea that something must be in Scripture for Christians to believe or practice is false. It is an error that the Protestants made called Sola Scriptura.

Like I said, there's scriptural support for honoring certain of the deceased, but there's not a sense of attempting to communicate with them.

 

[dennis1777]

I am posting this thread to defend the practice of devotion to and veneration of the Saints. Devotion to and veneration of the Saints are one and the same thing. Many people pray novenas to the Saints which is a series of 9 days of prayers. There is also a 54 day Rosary Novena to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

We do not pray to the saints but instead we ask them to pray for us. We do not pray to them like we would to God but instead we talk to them and ask them to pray for us. It is the same thing as asking someone here on earth to pray for you. The saints are confirmed by the Catholic Church to be very holy people who once lived on earth and who are now in Heaven. Since they are so holy and are now in Heaven, their prayers for us are very effective.

Often people think that kneeling before statues of saints is idolatry. This is not true. By kneeling before the statues of them we are venerating an image of the saint. We are not worshiping them. It is different than kneeling before the Eucharist Who is Jesus Christ, God. It lies in the motive behind kneeling. When a person kneels before a statue of a saint they have the motive or intention of venerating the saint, not of worshiping the saint. However, if one kneels before the Eucharist then they are kneeling to worship God. Their motive or intention is to worship God. It all lies in the state of mind with which you are kneeling. No one kneels before a statue of a saint with the intention of worshiping the saint or the statue. They have the intention of venerating the saint.

Veneration is basically honoring the saint. You know how people honor the founding fathers of the United States? It is very similar to that. We honor the saints because they were very holy people. We do not worship them. Honoring someone is not the same as worshiping them. Again, it lies in the state of mind. One has a different state of mind when venerating a saint than what they do when they worship God.

The Christian Church, the Catholic Church, which has existed since the time of Jesus has always practiced veneration of the saints. You can confirm this by reading the writings of the early Church fathers.

I will not discuss Marian devotion in this thread because it is a somewhat different topic. However, if someone brings up a question about devotion to Mary I will try to answer it as best I can. If I can't answer the question then hopefully another Catholic will.

Does anyone have any questions about devotion to the Saints? If you do, feel free to ask and I will do my best to answer.

I have a habit of sometimes bowing down to people subtly as a way of greeting them. Bowing down to an image of a Saint in the context of honoring them in a greeting sent to them in heaven is uderstandable given your elaboration on intent. And more so in fact they are part of our Christian family. And we can see Christ in them or His indelible impress upon them.
They would all have us turn to the Master wherein they all found the great peace.