Dedication to Mary

[Stormy]

Originally posted by s0uljah
The Church is the bride of Jesus.

Cool

AND WE ARE THE CHURCH!!!!!!!!!

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Indeed.

 

[ZiSunka]

Originally posted by Stormy
Cool

AND WE ARE THE CHURCH!!!!!!!!!

Catholics see the institution of the Catholic Church to be the bride of Christ, and not the individual believers.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by lambslove
Catholics see the institution of the Catholic Church to be the bride of Christ, and not the individual believers.

Um...no we don't. The individuals are all part of the organic body of the Church.

 

[Stormy]

Originally posted by lambslove
Catholics see the institution of the Catholic Church to be the bride of Christ, and not the individual believers.

Lamb that is not true. Maybe at one time but not any more. The Church has opened her arms with LOVE to all Christians.

There is no way that you are not coming to the Party!!

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by Stormy
Lamb that is not true. Maybe at one time but not any more. The Church has opened her arms with LOVE to all Christians.

There is no way that you are not coming to the Party!!

Unless she commit a mortal sin like lying or something like that.

PS

Stormy, you know the Catholic view on salvation and not OSAS, right? Also, works do matter, not just faith alone.

 

[Stormy]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Unless she commit a mortal sin like lying or something like that.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by Stormy

Do know the Catholic view of salvation and being judged, etc? Losing salvation and grace through mortal sin?

 

[kern]

Originally posted by Stormy

Lying is not necessarily a "mortal sin".

And soujah, I don't believe that Protestants are excluded from heaven if they commit "mortal sins" because the concept of "mortal sin" only has meaning if you are Catholic.

The whole system of "mortal sin" seems to say to me that the only way to commit a "mortal sin" is basically to turn away from God. You don't accidentally commit a mortal sin, you don't commit a mortal sin if you believe that what you're doing is not a sin, and I think that even things like extreme emotional situations can prevent something from being a mortal sin. It's not like if you lie or miss mass then you are automatically out of heaven until you repent. At least that's what I get from the Catechism.

-Chris

 

[Stormy]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Stormy, you know the Catholic view on salvation and not OSAS, right? Also, works do matter, not just faith alone.

Do I ever! I think it is a great stimulus to those that need it.

We will put my next statement in the dedication category. LOL

You can take it or leave it.

I am forever in the arms of my Saviour!!

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

And soujah, I don't believe that Protestants are excluded from heaven if they commit "mortal sins" because the concept of "mortal sin" only has meaning if you are Catholic

So if a protestant commits a sin like murder, etc, they are ok, since they believe in OSAS?

 

[Stormy]

Originally posted by s0uljah
So if a protestant commits a sin like murder, etc, they are ok, since they believe in OSAS?

Come on brother.

The Protestant does not think that is OK.

But maybe I am getting the hang of this. Are you saying that a Catholic can commit a sin such as murder and if they repent they will not be forgiven. You have no second chances?

I can not see a true Christian killing unless they are ill but whatever...

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Stormy-

That is what OSAS teaches. Of course, they say a real Christian wont do that, but anyway, if a Catholic repents then they are "saved" again.

 

[Theresa]

I wanted to say a few things but I forget, mostly. This one's been on my mind alot, though, that Mary is "Queen of Heaven." From everything I understand, she holds the highest rank in heaven under God. Humans can rank higher than the angels. That is what is great about being human! Even though we are from a fallen race, we have recived the highest gift possible, which is Christ who became one of us for our salvation! He didn't become and angel, or a seraphim, or a cherubim, or an archangel, he became human. We are the worst but through paricipation in his will and receipt of his grace, we can be taken to the highest hights of heaven!

Isn't that awesome. And the thing is, if we love Jesus and follow him enough, we probably wouldn't even think of aspiring to such a position.

Cosider: 1Cor 4:9, 1 Cor 6:2-4, 1 Peter 1:12, Hebrews 1:14, and my favorite one that I can't find.

This verse is hard to understand:
1 Cor 10,12: "For as a woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God....For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman out to have a sign of authority on her head." (????)

Consider as well, Adam and Eve had no physical mother or father. Jesus didn't need to either, but he choose to for a reason.

Sorry, just some random thoughts!

Peace and Love,
Theresa

 

[nyj]

Originally posted by kern
And soujah, I don't believe that Protestants are excluded from heaven if they commit "mortal sins" because the concept of "mortal sin" only has meaning if you are Catholic.

Since when?

Make no bones about it, Catholicism contains the fullness of the Christian faith. Just because other denominations have rejected pieces of that fullness, that does not render those pieces insignificant. They are just as important as the rest of the Christian faith in it's entirety.

It is a noble trait to not want to hurt others feelings, but the truth of the matter is, when we water down the Catholic faith by saying such things as "mortal sin" only have meaning if you are Catholic, well it renders the Catholic faith impotent. People need to know that the Catholic Church is the fullness of the Christian faith, and that while they can "get by" on non-Catholic Christianity, it is a bare-bones approach. The meat, the deep substance of Christianity is found only in it's entirety in Catholicism. This is a message that the Catholic Church has preached since Pentecost and which others have, throughout the ages, rebeled against. It is also a thing that the Catholic Church continues to speak openly about in the decree's about ecumenism.

 

[kern]

Originally posted by nyj

It is a noble trait to not want to hurt others feelings, but the truth of the matter is, when we water down the Catholic faith by saying such things as "mortal sin" only have meaning if you are Catholic, well it renders the Catholic faith impotent.

How would a Protestant who had commited a mortal sin gain absolution without the Sacrament of Penance? Or does any Protestant who commits a mortal sin automatically go to hell unless they become Catholic (or make an act of perfect contrition)?

I wasn't trying to "water down the Catholic faith", I was trying to apply what I read in other threads. According to what I have read in the past, Protestants can be saved without ever believing in the Catholic doctrine or going to a Mass. Most (perhaps all) Protestants do not believe in a difference between "mortal" and "venial" sin, and thus will not treat a "mortal sin" any different from a "venial sin" -- they certainly will not go to Confession for their mortal sins. Now, if we are willing to grant that a Protestant can remain a Protestant and be saved, it seems to me that we must also admit, then, that if you are not a Catholic, the concept of a "mortal sin" has no meaning. A lot of Protestants probably don't know what the term means, don't know what constitutes a mortal sin, don't know how they differ from venial sins, etc. So what meaning does a "mortal sin" have to a non-Catholic?

I find this "Protestants can still be saved" thing very confusing. In many posts, the Catholics on this board declare that Protestans can be saved. But then sometimes you get threads were people almost seem to be saying that they cannot. I recall one thread on the Real Presence where a Protestant asked "So are you saying that without the Eucharist you cannot be saved?" And some of the responses basically said "Yes, that's why you should be Catholic".

-Chris

 

[nyj]

Originally posted by kern
How would a Protestant who had commited a mortal sin gain absolution without the Sacrament of Penance? Or does any Protestant who commits a mortal sin automatically go to hell unless they become Catholic (or make an act of perfect contrition)?

The Catechism, as it pertains to mortal sin, states the following:
1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

Note that the Catechism says it's a possibility of human freedom, not just Catholic freedom. This ugly stain can be removed from the soul by repentance and God's forgiveness. The Church states that the most complete and self-assured way of receiving this forgiveness is through the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

If a non-Catholic commits a mortal sin, which means that 1)they gave full consent to their actions, 2)they had full knowledge of their wrongdoing and 3)it was grave matter, you don't think this is a mortal sin? If that is your argument then you're saying that all non-Catholics go right to heaven since only Catholics can commit mortal sins. I don't need to point out to you that that logic is flawed.

Originally posted by kern
I wasn't trying to "water down the Catholic faith", I was trying to apply what I read in other threads.

Apply what you know not from other threads but from the teachings of the Catholic Church... that includes encyclicals, the Catechism and the teachings of the Councils.

Originally posted by kern
According to what I have read in the past, Protestants can be saved without ever believing in the Catholic doctrine or going to a Mass.

Yes, but this is still to their detriment. The Sacraments bestow grace and it is by God's grace that we obtain salvation.

Originally posted by kern
Most (perhaps all) Protestants do not believe in a difference between "mortal" and "venial" sin, and thus will not treat a "mortal sin" any different from a "venial sin" -- they certainly will not go to Confession for their mortal sins. Now, if we are willing to grant that a Protestant can remain a Protestant and be saved, it seems to me that we must also admit, then, that if you are not a Catholic, the concept of a "mortal sin" has no meaning. A lot of Protestants probably don't know what the term means, don't know what constitutes a mortal sin, don't know how they differ from venial sins, etc. So what meaning does a "mortal sin" have to a non-Catholic?

So if non-Catholics cannot commit mortal sins, and it is only mortal sins which d-amn us to hell, non-Catholics cannot go to hell. That is basically where your argument leads... you wish to reconsider?

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

The truth is that Protestants can be saved. Also, you have a better chance of being saved if you are in full communion with the Church. I, for one, am not willing to take any chances.

 

[kern]

Originally posted by nyj

If a non-Catholic commits a mortal sin, which means that 1)they gave full consent to their actions, 2)they had full knowledge of their wrongdoing and 3)it was grave matter, you don't think this is a mortal sin?

I don't know, that's what I'm trying to figure out.

What does "full knowledge of their wrongdoing" mean? Does it include knowing that what they are doing is a grave sin?

This ugly stain can be removed from the soul by repentance and God's forgiveness. The Church states that the most complete and self-assured way of receiving this forgiveness is through the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

So what about all the Protestants who commit grave sins (or mortal sins, even) , but do not go to confession. They might be saved, they might not be, regardless of what they believe about their salvation?

If that is your argument then you're saying that all non-Catholics go right to heaven since only Catholics can commit mortal sins. I don't need to point out to you that that logic is flawed.

No, they could turn away from God.

What you seem to be saying is that a Protestant could unknowingly commit a mortal sin (he would know it was a sin, but not that it was a "mortal sin"), and then believe that he was going to heaven under an OSAS system when in fact he will be going to hell because of that mortal sin.

-Chris

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

What you seem to be saying is that a Protestant could unknowingly commit a mortal sin (he would know it was a sin, but not that it was a "mortal sin"), and then believe that he was going to heaven under an OSAS system when in fact he will be going to hell because of that mortal sin.

We have to look at what the Bible says...

Peter says that ignorant and unstable people distort the scriptures to their own DESTRUCTION.

(Not that anyone here is ignorant or unstable, but the point is the word DESTRUCTION)

Scary, no?