Deconversion

Nabobalis · Nov 10, 2012

Mr Bungle said:
Terrible arguments such as? (this is a genuine request purely out of curiosity.... i'd be interested to look at whatever it is from both sides of the argument...)

One of the worst is:

1. If God does not exist, objective moral values do not exist.

2. Objective moral values do exist.

3. Therefore, God exists.

No line of reason or evidence to support this argument.

The other is the defence of genocide.

SithDoughnut · Nov 10, 2012

Mr Bungle said:
Just wondered how many people on this forum have deconverted/ recanted from the Christian faith?

How or why did this happen?

Seeing as the whole "you were never really a Christian" thing has blown over far more quickly that I thought it would (at least for now), and actual discussion appears to be happening, I might as well join in.

I basically grew out of Christianity, I suppose. I became very attached to it when I was in school, and I'm still quite attached to my old church in various ways. Once I left compulsory education, things started to change. Not having to study subjects, and being able to choose them, made learning in general far more interesting, and I actually learned more of science and the world through my own interest than anything I was taught in a classroom. With that, suddenly I was confronted with actual explanations for things that previously I had merely assigned to God. Faith is different to simple belief (say, that a chair will hold my weight when I sit on it), but it still has to be based upon something. As every reason for God's existence slowly began to be replaced with actual explanations, I realised that I was merely filling in the gaps of my knowledge with God. I see other religious people doing the same thing all the time; "I don't know" is never really considered as an actual answer. Once I'd realised that, I very quickly decided that it was no longer worth pretending to be something I evidently was not (edit: here I refer to that specific moment in my life, not the entirety of my life as a Christian). Not long after, I started posting in forums like this one, to work out exactly where I stood. Seeing the various arguments put forward for God only strengthened my position, as I quickly realised that there are no arguments for God (at least none that I know of), only vague approximations of a "higher power" or "first/greatest being".

That was pretty long-winded, but it's quicker to put all the details in one post, especially as I'm not sure how long it will be before certain posters start trying to define other people's lives for them.

EDIT: On the WLC discussion, it's worth remembering that verbal debates are rarely there to prove an argument. All they show is which debater has the better rhetoric - if I were good enough, and picked my opponents carefully enough, I could "prove" the moon was made of cheese through such debates. When you strip away the rhetoric, and simply look at the points put forward and the arguments for them, you quickly find that WLC's arguments rarely reach the conclusion he is claiming, let alone the fact that they're not even very good at that. The problem for the people he challenges is that by accepting a challenge, you legitimise your opponent. Philosophy simply does not have the "proving power" it once did, and for a scientist to accept means that WLC's thought experiments and conjectures are put on the same pedestal as empirical science. For WLC, these debates are primarily a way of making his position seem strong without actually showing much evidence.

EDIT THE SECOND: I should also point out, for the sake of balance, that many promoters of atheism use the same strategy. The people who really prove a point are the people who sit down and actually work things out, instead of immediately trying to show everyone else to be wrong. They are the scientists and thinkers that you've probably never heard of (the scientific community is a rather closed-off one, because if you're interested enough, you're probably already in it), yet who define the way that we progress as a people.

savedbygrace05 · Nov 10, 2012

SithDoughnut said:
...I very quickly decided that it was no longer worth pretending to be something I evidently was not.

Nice. Honesty. But why spend your time trying to diminish, destroy and generally bad mouth what other people hold dear. The simple, basic reality is that you have never had a living encounter with the living God of trinity, and therefore you are not in a position to tell me (and others) what is, and what is not real. Thank you for your honest and candid approach to the matter of faith, but please respect my position (along with others) on these threads who do know what they are talking about.

Thank you

SithDoughnut · Nov 10, 2012

savedbygrace05 said:
Nice. Honesty. But why spend your time trying to diminish, destroy and generally bad mouth what other people hold dear. The simple, basic reality is that you have never had a living encounter with the living God of trinity, and therefore you are not in a position to tell me (and others) what is, and what is not real. Thank you for your honest and candid approach to the matter of faith, but please respect my position (along with others) on these threads who do know what they are talking about.

Thank you

OK, I was wrong. Those who want to define other people's lives for them never left. I know what I was, you do not. To pretend otherwise is arrogance. As far as I am concerned, I was a Christian, complete with the relationship that comes with it. Obviously I now view that differently, but I view all other Christians in the same manner. You know full well that I did not mean what you are implying I did with that phrase.

If you want me to respect your position, do me the courtesy of respecting mine. Neither of us have the right nor the knowledge to tell the other what we do and do not believe, in the past, now, or in the future. You can't expect respect while patronising others and insinuating that somehow I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to this subject.

savedbygrace05 · Nov 10, 2012

SithDoughnut said:
OK, I was wrong. Those who want to define other people's lives for them never left. I know what I was, you do not. To pretend otherwise is arrogance.

Other than that point, there's no point continuing this line of discussion.

Originally Posted by SithDoughnut

"...I very quickly decided that it was no longer worth pretending to be something I evidently was not."

Really? Oh dear! But it is in print, you admit you were never a true Christian. I am, and so are others on here. So, maybe with this latest revelation you may want to adjust your attitude and approach to real Christians here.

Thanks

SithDoughnut · Nov 10, 2012

savedbygrace05 said:
Really? Oh dear! But it is in print, you admit you were never a true Christian. I am, and so are others on here. So, maybe with this latest revelation you may want to adjust your attitude and approach to real Christians here.

I did not mean that I was never a Christian, I was referring to that specific moment in my life. I'll edit the post to avoid future misunderstanding.

Other than that, I have no intention of rising to the bait. Your attempts to patronise and troll others will have more success elsewhere, I'm sure.

savedbygrace05 · Nov 10, 2012

SithDoughnut said:
I did not mean that I was never a Christian, I was referring to that specific moment in my life. I'll edit the post to avoid future misunderstanding.
[/quote)

Thank you for further clarity (and honesty).

ebia · Nov 10, 2012

savedbygrace05 said:
Originally Posted by SithDoughnut http://www.christianforums.com/t7700384-5/#post61740757
"...I very quickly decided that it was no longer worth pretending to be something I evidently was not."

Really? Oh dear! But it is in print, you admit you were never a true Christian. I am, and so are others on here. So, maybe with this latest revelation you may want to adjust your attitude and approach to real Christians here.

Thanks

That's a pretty sever manipulation of what he's trying to say.

savedbygrace05 · Nov 10, 2012

SithDoughnut said:
As far as I am concerned, I was a Christian, complete with the relationship that comes with it. Obviously I now view that differently, but I view all other Christians in the same manner. You know full well that I did not mean what you are implying I did with that phrase.

The problem for me (and others no doubt) is that not once in your original post did you reveal any basis for authentic Christianity, which are;

1. Accepting Jesus Christ as your own Lord and Saviour.

2. Being 'born again' of God's Spirit (Jn 3: 3, 7).

3. Evidence of new life, which is progressive and evidence of items 1 & 2.

Prior to becoming a true Christian 15 years ago, I would have described myself as a Christian, but I didn't go to church, didn't read the bible or pray, and in truth was not, because I had not yet repented of my sin and rebellion, accepting Jesus as the only way to get right with my Creator. (Authentic, biblical Christianity).

So, what was/is your basis and understanding for claiming to be a Christian? And why are you so antagonistic towards true Christians on CF?

savedbygrace05 · Nov 10, 2012

ebia said:
That's a pretty sever manipulation of what he's trying to say.

Thanks for dropping by. What is the basis for your accusation?

ebia · Nov 10, 2012

savedbygrace05 said:
Thanks for dropping by. What is the basis for your accusation?

Try thinking about his post and his experience from his perspective and hopefully it will become clear.

savedbygrace05 · Nov 10, 2012

ebia said:
Try thinking about his post and his experience from his perspective and hopefully it will become clear.

But you are the one who has made a very specific accusation against me, so why not follow through with why you have made that accusation?

ebia · Nov 10, 2012

savedbygrace05 said:
But you are the one who has made a very specific accusation against me, so why not follow through with why you have made that accusation?

Why try to describe something that a person can look at themselves if they choose to look.

savedbygrace05 · Nov 10, 2012

ebia said:
Why try to describe something that a person can look at themselves if they choose to look.

Why the avoidance on your part?

ebia · Nov 10, 2012

savedbygrace05 said:
Why the avoidance on your part?

I'm not trying to win an argument, I want you to see the different perspective. If you won't look you can't see.

Mr Bungle · Nov 10, 2012

Nabobalis said:
One of the worst is:

1. If God does not exist, objective moral values do not exist.

2. Objective moral values do exist.

3. Therefore, God exists.

No line of reason or evidence to support this argument.

Ok, this seems like a poor version of the moral law argument that CS Lewis describes in 'Mere Christianity' (in the first book about the right & wrong of human nature):

http://usminc.org/images/MereChristianitybyCSLewis.pdf

1. Moral law implies a moral law giver

2. There is an objective moral

3. Therefore, there is an objective moral law giver

Moral law is prescriptive (as opposed to laws of nature which is descriptive) in that it describes what ought to be. It is not a description of how people do behave, but how people should behave.

I guess this argument rests on premise #2 i.e. the existence of an objective moral law. So is there any evidence that there is a universal, objective prescription that is binding on all human beings?

TemperateSeaIsland · Nov 10, 2012

savedbygrace05 said:
So, what was/is your basis and understanding for claiming to be a Christian? And why are you so antagonistic towards true Christians on CF?

Why are you so antagonistic to the idea of people falling away from their faith? Does it threaten your own faith?

SithDoughnut · Nov 10, 2012

savedbygrace05 said:
So, what was/is your basis and understanding for claiming to be a Christian?

My post was not my entire life. I consider myself to have fit all those requirements, and that's all that matters. No one here is required to prove themselves to you.

And why are you so antagonistic towards true Christians on CF?

I'm not. I've disagreed with Christians here but I've never been purposefully antagonistic, and I apologise if you have found my posts to be that way. Is that why you have chosen to be so antagonistic yourself (manipulating what I've said in this thread, patronising me, and proceeding to demand respect while giving me none and acting like I have no idea about my beliefs)?

You get what you give, and what you've given leaves little room for surprise if you've found people to be antagonistic to you.

ebia · Nov 10, 2012

Mr Bungle said:
Ok, this seems like a poor version of the moral law argument that CS Lewis describes in 'Mere Christianity' (in the first book about the right & wrong of human nature):

http://usminc.org/images/MereChristianitybyCSLewis.pdf

1. Moral law implies a moral law giver

2. There is an objective moral

3. Therefore, there is an objective moral law giver

Moral law is prescriptive (as opposed to laws of nature which is descriptive) in that it describes what ought to be. It is not a description of how people do behave, but how people should behave.

I guess this argument rests on premise #2 i.e. the existence of an objective moral law. So is there any evidence that there is a universal, objective prescription that is binding on all human beings?

Stepping back one stage, doesn't the whole thing assume a deontological view of ethics?

savedbygrace05 · Nov 10, 2012

TemperateSeaIsland said:
Why are you so antagonistic to the idea of people falling away from their faith? Does it threaten your own faith?

No threat, just the desire to see authentic, historical biblical truth honoured.

Deconversion

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