Deconversion?

[Liashen]

In this thread, I want to discuss deconversion. I understand that Christians believe that when somebody converts to Christianity, they have "embraced God's love.", but what about when somebody deconverts from Christianity? I'm not talking about somebody who was a Christian for, like, a month then decides that it isn't for him, I'm thinking somebody who was a Christian for YEARS, but eventually deconverts.

I'll give you an example.

Let's say we have a Christian, let's call him Evan. Evan has been a Christian for about 6 years, believes in Hell, believes in Yahweh, everything that an everyday Christian believes. To most others, he seems to be the epitome of God's love. However, he starts having doubts about his faith. He goes to his pastor looking for answers, but the answers he receives don't please him, they seem like cop-outs and bad logic. He then looks at Christian sites online, and even then he doesn't like the answers he receives. Eventually, he turns to other solutions. He looks at Deism, and decides that it's for him.

What do you think about the deconversion of this Christian? Was he a "true christian"? Merely the fact that people can believe in your god and eventually deconvert seems slightly disturbing. You'd think that Yahweh would look over his children a little better.

 

[Adstar]

In this thread, I want to discuss deconversion. I understand that Christians believe that when somebody converts to Christianity, they have "embraced God's love.", but what about when somebody deconverts from Christianity? I'm not talking about somebody who was a Christian for, like, a month then decides that it isn't for him, I'm thinking somebody who was a Christian for YEARS, but eventually deconverts.

I'll give you an example.

Let's say we have a Christian, let's call him Evan. Evan has been a Christian for about 6 years, believes in Hell, believes in Yahweh, everything that an everyday Christian believes. To most others, he seems to be the epitome of God's love. However, he starts having doubts about his faith. He goes to his pastor looking for answers, but the answers he receives don't please him, they seem like cop-outs and bad logic. He then looks at Christian sites online, and even then he doesn't like the answers he receives. Eventually, he turns to other solutions. He looks at Deism, and decides that it's for him.

What do you think about the deconversion of this Christian? Was he a "true christian"? Merely the fact that people can believe in your god and eventually deconvert seems slightly disturbing. You'd think that Yahweh would look over his children a little better.

God knows if he was a true Christian. People can embrace the love of the truth but then turn around an abandon their salvation. People are free to accept or reject the Love of God. The God of Abraham has given his Word and The Word has given us all that we need to make a positive or negative response to the Love of the truth.

Read the following, It declares that people who once believed in Jesus had ended up rejecting Him.

2 Peter 2
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

God can help those who seek His will to keep their faith but to others who hate His will no such help will come. People can and do reject the love of God and it is not the fault of God but the responsibility of the one who has rejected His love.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Liashen]

God knows if he was a true Christian.

So basically, we can't be sure he was, can't be sure he wasn't in your eyes?

People can embrace the love of the truth but then turn around an abandon their salvation.

Hmm... right. So, you believe that even if they are "close to god", they can deconvert?

People are free to accept or reject the Love of God. The God of Abraham has given his Word and The Word has given us all that we need to make a positive or negative response to the Love of the truth.

Fair enough, but was the abandonment in God's Plan, is something I'm curious about.

Read the following, It declares that people who once believed in Jesus had ended up rejecting Him.

2 Peter 2
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

I'm afraid that that was too deep for me, or something. Could you please summarize what it tells you? I kind of understood it, kind of didn't.

God can help those who seek His will to keep their faith but to others who hate His will no such help will come.

So, people literally hate God's will?

People can and do reject the love of God and it is not the fault of God but the responsibility of the one who has rejected His love.

You believe that people consciously reject God?

Have a nice day.

 

[Rafael]

Love is not forced on anyone, nor can it exist between two beings without a choice, IMO . It is accepted and grows because He loved us first, but He does not force us to love Him back or be thankful for the gift of life. The parable of the sower gives adequate example of how the word of God finds fallow ground and grows or is displaced and lost by various ways.
Evil exists, for the time being, so that a choice can be made between the light and the dark. The Bible says that some prefer the darkness so that they do not have to bring their deeds into the light, so Yes, people make conscious choice to either walk or not walk in the light as He is the light, submitting themselves to the commitments and sacrifices that love requires, or not.
As far as proving there is no God goes, I don't believe people really find any such proof; but convince themselves over time to go against their own conscience, as the scriptures tell us that all men know there is God at some time, if not always in their lives, but they exchange the truth for lies because they want their own ways and not God's; failing to seek Him for answers but going to any other source that supports their rebellion. In time, the conscience is seared to the truth and readily believes lies as truth, denying creation while standing in the middle of it and waking to life each day to experience God's gift.

 

[desert_island_1]

The answer for this is complicated. It varies from denomination to denomination and is commonly refered to as 'Once Saved, Always Saved' (herein referred to as 'OSAS')
Some churches argue that if one turns away from the Lord, they were never a 'true Christian' in the first place. If one becomes saved, they will go to heaven no matter what they do in life. This is the concept of OSAS.
Others believe that one can be a true Christian and turn your back on the Lord and lose your salvation. I count myself among those people. I personally believe that one can be a true Christian, love and serve God and turn away and not be a Christian any longer.
God gives us the choice to choose. We must choose Him. Evan simply did not choose the way God wants him to choose. Personally, I do not believe he is saved but may have been a true Christian at one point.

Kristy

 

[Adstar]

So basically, we can't be sure he was, can't be sure he wasn't in your eyes?

Well i cannot read minds and i cannot know the intents and attitudes of people when they express acceptance of the Word of God/Jesus. What their true motivations are clear to God.

Hmm... right. So, you believe that even if they are "close to god", they can deconvert?

They can turn away from God and reject the Message of God that in the end leads to disbelief.

Fair enough, but was the abandonment in God's Plan, is something I'm curious about.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

So God does not will that anyone should perish but that all people should come to repentance and have salvation. But God cannot force anyone to accept the gift of salvation that Jesus has provided. So therefore people will perish not because it is the will of God that they reject His gift but because it is their will to reject His gift.

I'm afraid that that was too deep for me, or something. Could you please summarize what it tells you? I kind of understood it, kind of didn't.

Ok it tells me that some who have come to accept the Messiah Jesus as their Lord and Redeemer have later rejected and renounced Jesus as their Lord and Redeemer. Jesus expressed this in a parable maybe you might understand it better if i post it:

Matthew 13

The Parable of the Sower

1 On the same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the sea. 2 And great multitudes were gathered together to Him, so that He got into a boat and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3 Then He spoke many things to them in parables, saying: “Behold, a sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds came and devoured them. 5 Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. 6 But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them. 8 But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

The explanation Jesus gave of The Parable of the Sower

Matthew 13
18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

So, people literally hate God's will?

Oh yes indeed. People are constantly coming in here and venting their hatred for the God of Abraham. They level many accusations against Him.

Also people are offended by the Message that they need to be forgiven by God to enter into eternity with God. Many people desire to be and believe that they are self justified, pride does not allow then to admit they are not worthy to spend eternity with God.

People also mock the concept of the Messiah Jesus willingly dieing to provide atonement for their sins. They consider such a concept as stupid.

1 Corinthians 1
20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Have you not heard many atheists talk of Christians as if we are brain dead sheep? gullible? stupid?

You believe that people consciously reject God?

Yes i do.

Have a nice day.

And may you have an even better one.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Liashen]

Love is not forced on anyone, nor can it exist between two beings without a choice, IMO.

Hmm... OK then. What about during Adam and Eve times? Since they didn't know the difference between good & evil, they would most likely be like an early model of a robot. How exactly would love work in a system like that?

It is accepted and grows because He loved us first, but He does not force us to love Him back or be thankful for the gift of life.

No disrespect, but I believe that non-Christians are just as thankful for life as Christians are.

The parable of the sower gives adequate example of how the word of God finds fallow ground and grows or is displaced and lost by various ways.

Ok then.

Evil exists, for the time being,

Wait, when evil stops existing, will there still be a choice between loving Yahweh and not loving him?

so that a choice can be made between the light and the dark. The Bible says that some prefer the darkness so that they do not have to bring their deeds into the light, so Yes, people make conscious choice to either walk or not walk in the light as He is the light, submitting themselves to the commitments and sacrifices that love requires, or not.

Hmm... interesting. However, I'm not sure that deconverts really play a role in this. People choose to go from being in the light, into the darkness because they are so selfish that they reject God, after witnessing his love?

As far as proving there is no God goes, I don't believe people really find any such proof; but convince themselves over time to go against their own conscience,

So wait, for some reason a Christian who has been one for multiple years, decides to leave the faith for some reason? Decides to stop listening to their conscience... why would they do that?

as the scriptures tell us that all men know there is God at some time, if not always in their lives,

This is just curiosity, so you believe that people believe that there is a god, right after they are born?

but they exchange the truth for lies because they want their own ways and not God's; failing to seek Him for answers but going to any other source that supports their rebellion.

Wow, I didn't know us deconverts were so selfish!

In time, the conscience is seared to the truth and readily believes lies as truth, denying creation while standing in the middle of it and waking to life each day to experience God's gift.

Wait, what if the person worships a deist god, or Allah, or Krishna? Are they denying creation?

 

[tapero]

In this thread, I want to discuss deconversion. I understand that Christians believe that when somebody converts to Christianity, they have "embraced God's love.", but what about when somebody deconverts from Christianity? I'm not talking about somebody who was a Christian for, like, a month then decides that it isn't for him, I'm thinking somebody who was a Christian for YEARS, but eventually deconverts.

I'll give you an example.

Let's say we have a Christian, let's call him Evan. Evan has been a Christian for about 6 years, believes in Hell, believes in Yahweh, everything that an everyday Christian believes. To most others, he seems to be the epitome of God's love. However, he starts having doubts about his faith. He goes to his pastor looking for answers, but the answers he receives don't please him, they seem like cop-outs and bad logic. He then looks at Christian sites online, and even then he doesn't like the answers he receives. Eventually, he turns to other solutions. He looks at Deism, and decides that it's for him.

What do you think about the deconversion of this Christian? Was he a "true christian"? Merely the fact that people can believe in your god and eventually deconvert seems slightly disturbing. You'd think that Yahweh would look over his children a little better.

Hi,

I am one of those that believe if you are saved that even should you walk away from God, you will not lose your salvation.

Here's one verse:

13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

This states that when we believed we were marked with a seal, the Holy Spirit who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance.

So then the question is but did they truly believe in the first place?

We don't know such things, only God knows a person's heart.

But one who did believe and walked away from God will be sooner or later called back to God, and even if it doesn't happen while the person is alive, he/she does not lose their salvation.

They were sealed when they believed.

Some Christians struggle greatly in their walk with Christ, and it varies on their personality, issues, mental health, hurt from the past, etc.

God understands us, understands why someone who might be burnt at church would walk away and say they rejected God. God never let's us go.

Thanks for the question.
tapero

 

[TexasGirl06]

In this thread, I want to discuss deconversion. I understand that Christians believe that when somebody converts to Christianity, they have "embraced God's love.", but what about when somebody deconverts from Christianity? I'm not talking about somebody who was a Christian for, like, a month then decides that it isn't for him, I'm thinking somebody who was a Christian for YEARS, but eventually deconverts.

I'll give you an example.

Let's say we have a Christian, let's call him Evan. Evan has been a Christian for about 6 years, believes in Hell, believes in Yahweh, everything that an everyday Christian believes. To most others, he seems to be the epitome of God's love. However, he starts having doubts about his faith. He goes to his pastor looking for answers, but the answers he receives don't please him, they seem like cop-outs and bad logic. He then looks at Christian sites online, and even then he doesn't like the answers he receives. Eventually, he turns to other solutions. He looks at Deism, and decides that it's for him.

What do you think about the deconversion of this Christian? Was he a "true christian"? Merely the fact that people can believe in your god and eventually deconvert seems slightly disturbing. You'd think that Yahweh would look over his children a little better.

Satan believes in Jesus.
Satan believes in God.
Satan believes in salvation.
Satan believes in Hell.
Satan believes in Heaven.

Satan is not a Christian.

After Jesus' death, burial and resurrection, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in a genuine Christian. He does not leave. There is no evidence in the New Testamant that shows a person was saved...and then unsaved.

A Christian is sealed with the Holy Spirit.
Forever.

 

[TexasGirl06]

Hmm... OK then. What about during Adam and Eve times? Since they didn't know the difference between good & evil, they would most likely be like an early model of a robot. How exactly would love work in a system like that?

Adam and Eve were created perfectly.
Because God wanted the Love to be real love,
He gave Adam and Eve free will.

They were free to obey God...
or disobey God.

Free to love God....
or not.

they chose to disobey....
and sin entered the world.

So, actually..... robot love would have been present if God had not given them free will.

 

[TexasGirl06]

This is just curiosity, so you believe that people believe that there is a god, right after they are born?

God has revealed Himself to everyone....through nature.
No, this does not happen when a child is born.

It certainly can occur when a person is a child.

God began revealing Himself to me.... through nature...when I was but a child.
But, I was 26 years old before I accepted Christ as my Savior.

I was lost without Him.
He saved my sorry soul.

 

[MerCYsMIraCLe]

The answer for this is complicated. It varies from denomination to denomination and is commonly refered to as 'Once Saved, Always Saved' (herein referred to as 'OSAS')
Some churches argue that if one turns away from the Lord, they were never a 'true Christian' in the first place. If one becomes saved, they will go to heaven no matter what they do in life. This is the concept of OSAS.
Others believe that one can be a true Christian and turn your back on the Lord and lose your salvation. I count myself among those people. I personally believe that one can be a true Christian, love and serve God and turn away and not be a Christian any longer.
God gives us the choice to choose. We must choose Him. Evan simply did not choose the way God wants him to choose. Personally, I do not believe he is saved but may have been a true Christian at one point.

Kristy

This is not a true understanding of OSAS, maybe for the heretic, but not the true definition of OSAS.
I believe in OSAS (or perseverance of the Saints). I do not believe one can fully embrace the power of God, have His Holy Spirit living within them, and then go forward to deny Him altogether. It is not possible...biblically speaking that is. Having said this, we are only forgiven sinners and will continue to sin until made perfect on that day of Glory. that does NOT give anyone permission to live the way they want in the belief that they are saved for life regardless of their actions - IMO that would proof that they have not the Holy Spirit living wihin them...

 

[Key]

In this thread, I want to discuss deconversion. I understand that Christians believe that when somebody converts to Christianity, they have "embraced God's love.", but what about when somebody deconverts from Christianity? I'm not talking about somebody who was a Christian for, like, a month then decides that it isn't for him, I'm thinking somebody who was a Christian for YEARS, but eventually deconverts.

I'll give you an example.

Let's say we have a Christian, let's call him Evan. Evan has been a Christian for about 6 years, believes in Hell, believes in Yahweh, everything that an everyday Christian believes. To most others, he seems to be the epitome of God's love.

Why am I already worried about this Evan guy...

However, he starts having doubts about his faith. He goes to his pastor looking for answers, but the answers he receives don't please him, they seem like cop-outs and bad logic. He then looks at Christian sites online, and even then he doesn't like the answers he receives.

Well then Evan has a problem.. but is the problem with the answers.. or with Evan himself..

After all.. it is Evan that has made the judgment that it is bad logic.. however.. what in the end of things.. does Evan know... how logical is life itself.. when you think about it..

Eventually, he turns to other solutions. He looks at Deism, and decides that it's for him.

Then that is what he decides.. life goes on..

What do you think about the deconversion of this Christian?

It is sad.. but.. also.. after having read many deconversion stories.. I have many doubts they ever grasped the Christian faith to start with.

Was he a "true christian"?

I would say... I have no idea...

But.. the fact that Evan has chosen to believe that his own logic and abilities are superior to.. or better than... Gods.. would leave much doubt in my mind.. if Evan ever truly embraced God, and put God first in his life.

Merely the fact that people can believe in your god and eventually deconvert seems slightly disturbing.

Not really bothersom at all when you think about it.. people choose all kinds of directions.. but.. we are free to make that choice.. we can either embrace God.. or we can refuse him..

Children Leave home.. people get divorced.. friends abandon each other.. things happen..

The problem is on the Human side.. not the God side...

You'd think that Yahweh would look over his children a little better.

He gives us our freedom.. could we ask for anything more?

God Bless

Key.

 

[Bondman]

In this thread, I want to discuss deconversion. I understand that Christians believe that when somebody converts to Christianity, they have "embraced God's love.", but what about when somebody deconverts from Christianity? I'm not talking about somebody who was a Christian for, like, a month then decides that it isn't for him, I'm thinking somebody who was a Christian for YEARS, but eventually deconverts.

I'll give you an example.

Let's say we have a Christian, let's call him Evan. Evan has been a Christian for about 6 years, believes in Hell, believes in Yahweh, everything that an everyday Christian believes. To most others, he seems to be the epitome of God's love. However, he starts having doubts about his faith. He goes to his pastor looking for answers, but the answers he receives don't please him, they seem like cop-outs and bad logic. He then looks at Christian sites online, and even then he doesn't like the answers he receives. Eventually, he turns to other solutions. He looks at Deism, and decides that it's for him.

What do you think about the deconversion of this Christian? Was he a "true christian"? Merely the fact that people can believe in your god and eventually deconvert seems slightly disturbing. You'd think that Yahweh would look over his children a little better.

Hi Liashen,

I'm intrigued about why you started this thread. Are you concerned about a real 'Evan'? Or just wanting to see what Christians think about this? And if the latter, do you have a reason for asking?

Yeah, I know, 'curiosity killed the cat' as the saying goes...! lol

Best to you!

- Bondman (ministering the Good News of the Gospel)

 

[desert_island_1]

This is not a true understanding of OSAS, maybe for the heretic, but not the true definition of OSAS.
I believe in OSAS (or perseverance of the Saints). I do not believe one can fully embrace the power of God, have His Holy Spirit living within them, and then go forward to deny Him altogether. It is not possible...biblically speaking that is. Having said this, we are only forgiven sinners and will continue to sin until made perfect on that day of Glory. that does NOT give anyone permission to live the way they want in the belief that they are saved for life regardless of their actions - IMO that would proof that they have not the Holy Spirit living wihin them...

Sorry. I am not familiar as much with the concept of OSAS being raised in the same church my whole life. Thank you for the clarification.

Kristy

 

[cassc]

On of God's greatest gifts to man is the gift of free will, and I am of the belief that is grieves him terrible to see his children turn away. Like any father he gives his children as much love and direction as possible but then it is up to the child to stay on the right path.

 

[MerCYsMIraCLe]

Sorry. I am not familiar as much with the concept of OSAS being raised in the same church my whole life. Thank you for the clarification.

Kristy

No Problem. Just Clarifying.

 

[Silent Enigma]

Interesting subject. Jesus is quoted as saying "I will never leave you or forsake you." Or something like that.

What exactly that entails, I have no idea. Like a lot of obscure passages in the bible, you can make it say whatever you need to, to have it fit the rest of your doctrines.

 

[Silent Enigma]

Also, it seems like there are more conversions out of Christianity than into it on this message board. Am I right or just imagining things?

 

[seebs]

What do you think about the deconversion of this Christian?

I would have to talk to him more to understand it.

Was he a "true christian"?

So far as I can tell, probably. I mean, I didn't know him well enough to say.

Merely the fact that people can believe in your god and eventually deconvert seems slightly disturbing. You'd think that Yahweh would look over his children a little better.

I don't see a problem. I have had friends who were Christian, but whose faith was brittle and problematic; when they became atheists, it was an affirmation of the Gospel message, and they had been set free. I don't really care whether people hold the same opinions I do; I care whether they actually experience the transformation of learning to love.

Who is healthier? A hypochondriac or someone who is dying of cancer but has a sticker on him saying "I am very healthy?" Reality matters; labels don't.