Deconversion

Im_A · Dec 30, 2005

i wanted to start a thread about deconversion.

we read people on here who have given us their reason of leaveing the faith. then we hear of people outside of these forums for the reason why they leave the faith.

we see a lot (i'm not going to say all) of people who leave the religion because of the followers of Christianity.

now, personally, i don't agree that, leaveing because of human beings is the most best reason to deconvert from a religion.

but i think many of us have heard story after story after story that people say they leave a religion because of the followers.

so i just wanted to discuss about this.

i think many of us can on and on about why that is not a valid reason to leave.

but is it really an invalid reason to leave a religion of any sort? we Christians like to defend ourselves (i've done it plenty of times) by saying, that God is different than us human beings, so stay focused on Him.

but, now i'm not meaning to get off topic, but the scriptures seem to be pretty clear about Christ-being the human form of God. i think it is easily assumed/shown that humanity need a human form to see God through. and even though Christ has died and risen now, we have the Holy Spirit in our lives, but we also need people, that human form that is somewhat like God/Jesus. and if people are constantly seeing one person after one person who is not showing a good example of the love of God, then people leave, sometimes at the drop of a hat.

i'm starting to think that maybe it is a valid reason to leave a faith. maybe that's why the Bible really stresses about being a good witness. maybe it's not for our own sake to be a good witness, but to be a good witness for others ONLY. because humanity needs to see God in the human form. we need to see people showing the love of God so much that when we don't see it, we dont' see God in the religion. i mean if God was gracious enough to give us His son as the physical manifestation of God, that shows a need that God knew was there and was becoming an escalating need, at least in my opinion. and nevertheless, the world hasn't been the same since Christ, at least in my opinion. and then when we fail the calling of grace to be that Christ like person with showing our love for God, no wonder people deconvert.

any other thoughts?

NothingButTheBlood · Dec 30, 2005

So basically your saying if someone doesn't like the way I carry out my Christian faith it's ok for them to tell God and Christ fu I have better things to do? Sorry, it's a cop out. You may leave church, you may hide your faith so not to be associated with the "bad" Christians but you don't turn your back on God and your faith.

Multi-Elis · Dec 30, 2005

These are my thoughts: faith and the decision to believe something seems to be like deciding to look at the full half of the cup, and while disbelief is like looking at the empty half of the cup. So who is right? To those used to looking at the empty half of the cup, the others look like naive, innocent, shallow thinking, emotional optimists who are afraid to look at reality in the face. To me, those who only look at the empty half seem like hopeless cynical pessimists who are so obsessed with the half cup that is empty that they don't even see the half that is full!
Which is valid? Some say that there is just too much suffering in the world for there to be a God. I say that there is too much grace despite the suffering for there not to be a God. Who is right?

Anyway, my point is this: Christ, and God, (and the Holy Spirit) are supposed to be changing us, making us better more loving people. Christianity is the religion that is supposed to give you the freedom to succeed in doing good. If we repent of sin, it is in order to sin no more. Our two laws are that of Love. It is with God's help that we can overcome our human difficulties and become truely loving, and thus be doers of the word. I haven't bothered to give all the convincing proof for this, because I think we all are sufficiantly versed to recognise these statements.
But what happens if these claims are false? If human beings will always have a thorn in the flesh? Will never be perfect? Then Christ isn't capable of changing people. Then he doesn't succeed. Then that might be reason enough to deconvert. This is the empty half of the glass.

I struggle with this. The only real radical fundumentalist I ever met became one, because he saw that christianity around him wasn't living up to what it should be. He concluded that the christians around him weren't applying the right formula, so he went "back to the bible" in order to re-find the right formula. I struggle too, which is why I wanted to hear his story. For me, my biggest source of embarassement is unlovely things my own character. If God can't change that, what is the point? If he can't make me a loving person, then there is no use in trying to obey His laws because it's impossible.

Faith says this: All things are possible to him who believes. The bible shows countless instances of people who didn't believe something because it was impossible, but were proven wrong (luckly). Christ had a real respect for people who had faith. Even faith like a child. Miracles do happen. Stuborn faith is rewarded. This is the full half of the glass.

In my case, I hold on tight to the memory of the few christians I met who were not perfect, but through whom I saw God's grace, and I saw a character bearing the fruits of the spirit to a deapth that doesn't come from them. That is because I insist on seeing the half that is full. That is my only hope, and I don't always succeed.

So if somebody leaves because God isn't capable of doing the change He talks about, who can blame him? The empty half exists as surely as the filled half

Skydancing · Dec 30, 2005

My husband was a very devout born again Christian in his youth, now he is a convinced atheist and happy to be so. He is a very educated man and his studies have convinced him that God is not a reality.

LiberatedChick · Dec 30, 2005

I really don't blame people who've been pushed away from Christianity because of the behaviour of it's believers. I've considered the same thing at times...wondered why I ever bother calling myself Christian since I don't want to be lumped in with some people I see...something which has already happened to me. I lost a friend because of Christianity...all I did was tell him I'd become Christian and *bam* he stopped talking to me. I eventually found out from him that he'd had bad experiences before...I guess the word "Christian" and other related words bring up quite a lot of negativity in some people because of the behaviour of some of it's believers. Some people just don't want to be associated with that and drop the label of Christian. Now me, if I'd dropped the label I don't think I'd have given up on God...but whether that's just me or whether other's would do the same (or give up on Him for a while before realising they don't have to) I don't know.

Im_A · Dec 30, 2005

NothingButTheBlood said:
So basically your saying if someone doesn't like the way I carry out my Christian faith it's ok for them to tell God and Christ fu I have better things to do? Sorry, it's a cop out. You may leave church, you may hide your faith so not to be associated with the "bad" Christians but you don't turn your back on God and your faith.

why are you takin this as a personal attacking against you. there is no cop out, to someone having pain being given to them by so called holy believers. and this is no attack against you. not everything is meant to be taken personally here on these forums nothingbuttheblood.

Im_A · Dec 30, 2005

Multi-Elis said:
These are my thoughts: faith and the decision to believe something seems to be like deciding to look at the full half of the cup, and while disbelief is like looking at the empty half of the cup. So who is right? To those used to looking at the empty half of the cup, the others look like naive, innocent, shallow thinking, emotional optimists who are afraid to look at reality in the face. To me, those who only look at the empty half seem like hopeless cynical pessimists who are so obsessed with the half cup that is empty that they don't even see the half that is full!
Which is valid? Some say that there is just too much suffering in the world for there to be a God. I say that there is too much grace despite the suffering for there not to be a God. Who is right?

Anyway, my point is this: Christ, and God, (and the Holy Spirit) are supposed to be changing us, making us better more loving people. Christianity is the religion that is supposed to give you the freedom to succeed in doing good. If we repent of sin, it is in order to sin no more. Our two laws are that of Love. It is with God's help that we can overcome our human difficulties and become truely loving, and thus be doers of the word. I haven't bothered to give all the convincing proof for this, because I think we all are sufficiantly versed to recognise these statements.
But what happens if these claims are false? If human beings will always have a thorn in the flesh? Will never be perfect? Then Christ isn't capable of changing people. Then he doesn't succeed. Then that might be reason enough to deconvert. This is the empty half of the glass.

I struggle with this. The only real radical fundumentalist I ever met became one, because he saw that christianity around him wasn't living up to what it should be. He concluded that the christians around him weren't applying the right formula, so he went "back to the bible" in order to re-find the right formula. I struggle too, which is why I wanted to hear his story. For me, my biggest source of embarassement is unlovely things my own character. If God can't change that, what is the point? If he can't make me a loving person, then there is no use in trying to obey His laws because it's impossible.

Faith says this: All things are possible to him who believes. The bible shows countless instances of people who didn't believe something because it was impossible, but were proven wrong (luckly). Christ had a real respect for people who had faith. Even faith like a child. Miracles do happen. Stuborn faith is rewarded. This is the full half of the glass.

In my case, I hold on tight to the memory of the few christians I met who were not perfect, but through whom I saw God's grace, and I saw a character bearing the fruits of the spirit to a deapth that doesn't come from them. That is because I insist on seeing the half that is full. That is my only hope, and I don't always succeed.

So if somebody leaves because God isn't capable of doing the change He talks about, who can blame him? The empty half exists as surely as the filled half

i understand what your saying here. if someone makes a claim of this and that and it doesn't happen, it's logical that they would deconvert.

i think you speak on a problem of the church today. we are telling things that just don't happen the same way for every single person.

i wish sermons of the Christian life would resemble this of Sartre:
"Man is condemned to be free; because once thrown into the world, he is responsible for everything he does. It is up to you to give [life] a meaning. "
(this quote has been stuck on my head, since i practically by accident came across it and this is the 2nd post i've quoted it in already, and one other because of one of those online quiz fun stuff..)

i think it is a God given responsibility for us mankind to be responsible, and to change ourselves, and make ourselves better. why else would God kick us out of the Garden of Eden, and what kind of expectancy could be from that? God made us. we should think high, not being boastful, but think good that we can do this.

i happen to be along the line of thinking that the gospel is the most powerful message, as long as one choose to go with it, instead of relying on God to do the change, which i guess inevitably, God does the changing cause it's His powerful message. but i guess i'm getting into maybe a can of words, that i should just put the lid back on before opening up.

thank you for your response. this definetely for me at least, gives more to think about with this topic

Im_A · Dec 30, 2005

Skydancing said:
My husband was a very devout born again Christian in his youth, now he is a convinced atheist and happy to be so. He is a very educated man and his studies have convinced him that God is not a reality.

i hope i'm not getting too personal with you here skydancing, and if i am just tell me

so did your husband deconvert for those specific reasons, or did the actions of the believers push him away as well?

Im_A · Dec 30, 2005

LiberatedChick said:
I really don't blame people who've been pushed away from Christianity because of the behaviour of it's believers. I've considered the same thing at times...wondered why I ever bother calling myself Christian since I don't want to be lumped in with some people I see...something which has already happened to me. I lost a friend because of Christianity...all I did was tell him I'd become Christian and *bam* he stopped talking to me. I eventually found out from him that he'd had bad experiences before...I guess the word "Christian" and other related words bring up quite a lot of negativity in some people because of the behaviour of some of it's believers. Some people just don't want to be associated with that and drop the label of Christian. Now me, if I'd dropped the label I don't think I'd have given up on God...but whether that's just me or whether other's would do the same (or give up on Him for a while before realising they don't have to) I don't know.

yea i see what your saying. i've wondered too if this name "Christian", now adays, is a hinderance for the Gospel.

but then again, this is who i am. this is who i choose to be, this is what i choose to believe. and i dont' want to hide it because of the failures of other christians. i'm not saying i'm perfect by any means tho, but i don't want to hide this because of the faults of others as well. plus the whole label thing does get annoying. not because i'm scared of what others will think if i say, i'm a Christian. trust me, with my tattoos, it's actually something that comes up the very first time people meet me and we get along. they want to know what my tattoos mean. i tell them, then they ask me if i'm a Christian, and i say yes.

so i guess for me it's like finding a middleground. a middleground to not push people away or be a hinderance, but also being honest and not tiptoeing/beating around the bush with something.

and if anything, if someone has a bad thought of the word Christian, i would imagine instead of running away from who we are, we need to give the best example that we can of being a Christian.

the only times i've ever thought of deconverting, was just through stupid actions, or infuriated moments with questions or doubts. someone along the way always mentions something that helps, be it, my mom, my fiancee, friends, here on the forums, and here lately, (KNOCK ON WOOD, HAHA) things have been going extremely well in that.

Skydancing · Dec 30, 2005

His parents were devout fundamentalist Christians and they were enough to put anyone off Christianity for life. My husband's scientific studies have lead him to a lack of belief in God. He finds total freedom in the idea of oblivion when he dies, especially as he wont have to meet his parents ever again!

Im_A · Dec 30, 2005

Skydancing said:
His parents were devout fundamentalist Christians and they were enough to put anyone off Christianity for life. My husband's scientific studies have lead him to a lack of belief in God. He finds total freedom in the idea of oblivion when he dies, especially as he wont have to meet his parents ever again!

i'm sorry to hear that his parents have done that. at least he has found happiness

and hey btw, it's pretty cool that a devout atheist is married to a Christian

Skydancing · Dec 30, 2005

Well he was a Christian when I married him 36 years ago!

Im_A · Dec 30, 2005

Skydancing said:
Well he was a Christian when I married him 36 years ago!

still to see a dramatic change in his own faith, to this now, and the marriage still lasting, is great to me (mind you, i've seen 6 divorces total in my short life.)

shows good things about him being a husband and shows good things about you being a wife

or i'm just overly dramatic about seeing marriages last out no matter what cause i haven't seen it at all.

Skydancing · Dec 30, 2005

I respect his views, sometimes I am drawn to them myself! I am an out of sight liberal Christian, so I don't really mind what people believe as long as others are not hurt in the process!

Deconversion

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