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Declaration of the Separation of the States of America

clirus

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You still haven't answered the question I have posed (and this will be the fourth time) about what sin the medieval Europeans committed to be smitten by God with the Black Death:

There are those that would say that God punishes people for sin but I believe in the concept that the "wages of sin is death". I believe God was active in the Old Testament age, but is passive in the New Testament age.

I believe with Jesus's death on the cross, and the New Testament added to the Old Testament (complete Bible) the active intervention of God on earth was halted. We are now in a period of grace (withholding judgement) where people choose to accept Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior and commit to following the commandments/doctrines of the Bible and will be in heaven with God, or reject Jesus Christ and spend eternity in hell. At the end of the period of grace, judgement will come.

I believe the day of judgement will come when America totally rejects God.

On the bases of the wages of sin being disease, death and destruction, I offer the following discussion which basically says overpopulation is the cause of most poverty and the probably the black death plague.

I believe overpopulation is cause by Atheists and not by Christians because Christians should be following the following verse not only for providing for, but producing children.

I Timothy 5:8 states, "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."

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A Malthusian crisis

Black Death - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In addition, various historians have adopted yet another theory for the cause of the Black Plague, one that points to social, agricultural, and sometimes economic causes. Often known as the Malthusian limit, scholars use this term to express, and/or explain, certain tragedies throughout history. In his 1798 Essay on the Principle of Population, Thomas Malthus asserted that eventually humans would reproduce so greatly that they would go beyond the limits of food supplies; once they reached this point, some sort of "reckoning" was inevitable. While the Black Death may appear to be a "reckoning" of this sort, it was in fact an external, unpredictable factor and does not therefore fit into the Malthusian theory. In his book, The Black Death and the Transformation of the West, David Herlihy explores this idea of plague as an inevitable crisis wrought on humanity in order to control the population and human resources. In the book The Black Death; A Turning Point in History? (ed. William M. Bowsky) he writes "implies that the Black Death's pivotal role in late medieval society... was now being challenged. Arguing on the basis of a neo-Malthusian economics, revisionist historians recast the Black Death as a necessary and long overdue corrective to an overpopulated Europe."

Herlihy examines the arguments against the Malthusian crisis, stating "if the Black Death was a response to excessive human numbers it should have arrived several decades earlier" due to the population growth of years before the outbreak of the Black Death. Herlihy also brings up other, biological factors that argue against the plague as a "reckoning" by arguing "the role of famines in affecting population movements is also problematic. The many famines preceding the Black Death, even the 'great hunger' of 1314 to 1317, did not result in any appreciable reduction in population levels". Herlihy concludes the matter stating, "the medieval experience shows us not a Malthusian crisis but a stalemate, in the sense that the community was maintaining at stable levels very large numbers over a lengthy period" and states that the phenomenon should be referred to as more of a deadlock, rather than a crisis, to describe Europe before the epidemics.
 
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clirus

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Chajara quote

Tell that to a pregnant woman who just got notice that her husband died in a car accident on the way to work.

Response

Within Christian concepts, the woman would be a widow and the child would be an orphan so the Church would have responsibility to care for the widow and orphan.

There are over 200 million people in American and certainly there have been situations where a pregnant woman who just got notice that her husband died in a car accident on the way to work, however I believe this occurs so infrequently that the Church could and would take care of the situation.

Chajara quote

Don't you get it, dude? If you're a good little Christian you'll always have good health and plenty of money. You only get sick or end up in the poorhouse due to sin!

Right, Clirus?

Response

Christians have problems, but they look to God for solutions and not to the government. I believe that Christians who look to God will have there needs provided.

I believe most disease and poverty is a direct result of willful disobedience of the commandments/doctrines of the Bible.
 
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clirus

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Fornication is what brought you into this world! Fornication is the bringer of life! Face it and get a life Clirus! Your scaremongering posts are of no value to neither Atheists nor Christians!

:doh:

Atheists would consider fornication the same as sexual relations within marriage, but God defines sexual relation within a marriage as good and fornication as evil.

Sexual relation within a marriage means the child will be taken care of by the family, but fornication means the child will most likely be taken care of by the government.

Satan wants to blur the distinction of good and evil so that people really don't know what they are doing. That is why the Bible is so very important in a persons life and a the life of a nation so that both individuals and nations know the difference between good and evil and avoid evil.

Satan wants to the separation of good and evil to be defined as hate, but I believe it is God's Love to want people to avoid the disease, death and destruction of evil.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Within Christian concepts, the woman would be a widow and the child would be an orphan so the Church would have responsibility to care for the widow and orphan.

There are over 200 million people in American and certainly there have been situations where a pregnant woman who just got notice that her husband died in a car accident on the way to work, however I believe this occurs so infrequently that the Church could and would take care of the situation.

When you say "within Christian concepts" you imply that you actually have evidence - Scriptural or otherwise - for your claim that Christians should only extend charity to the 'widows and orphans of fellow Christians'. However, the contrary is true: you have NO Scripture passage on which to base that claim.

Christians have problems, but they look to God for solutions and not to the government. I believe that Christians who look to God will have there needs provided.

Countless persons have converted to Christianity and obeyed the commandments/doctrines of the Bible only to have their basic subsistence unfulfilled. You are excluding the human factor from the equation. If someone is lacking their basic means of subsistence and are in a dire situation, then no conversion or sermon will suddenly and miraculously fulfill their need for water, food or shelter. A human hand, however, can provide such a thing in these dire circumstances, and thereby, save a life.

I believe most disease and poverty is a direct result of willful disobedience of the commandments/doctrines of the Bible.

Do you have anything empirical to support that claim?
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Sexual relation within a marriage means the child will be taken care of by the family,

Not necessarily.

but fornication means the child will most likely be taken care of by the government.

Again, not necessarily.

Satan wants to blur the distinction of good and evil so that people really don't know what they are doing. That is why the Bible is so very important in a persons life and a the life of a nation so that both individuals and nations know the difference between good and evil and avoid evil.

But according to your previous claim, evil may become necessary in doing 'whatever it takes' to win in a war. This contradiction your ideology cannot escape, and it will always re-appear, no matter your vain attempts to ignore it.
 
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jgarden

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The Parable of the Lost Lamb - Matthew 18:12-14

12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
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"Clirus" JUST DOESN'T GET IT!

In The Parable of the Lost Lamb, the Good Shepherd doesn't write the "stray lamb" off as the product of "sin" or "disobedience" or "atheists" or .....

The Good Shepherd doesn't pass judgement on this one "stray lamb," or quote obscure Bible verses as to why GOD would want to turn it over to the tender mercies of the wolves or robbers.

The Good Shepherd takes all action necessary, because he/she knows that no lamb is expendable in GOD's eyes.

As for "Clirus'" seemily neverending preoccupation with "GOD's JUDGMENT" - we actually spend our lives on earth passing judgement on ourselves.

How we treat/judge the "stray lambs" that we encounter as we pass through this world is no different than how we should expect to be TREATED/JUDGED by GOD.

 
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clirus

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**********************************************************
"Clirus" JUST DOESN'T GET IT!

In The Parable of the Lost Lamb, the Good Shepherd doesn't write the "stray lamb" off as the product of "sin" or "disobedience" or "atheists" or .....

The Good Shepherd doesn't pass judgement on this one "stray lamb," or quote obscure Bible verses as to why GOD would want to turn it over to the tender mercies of the wolves or robbers.

The Good Shepherd takes all action necessary, because he/she knows that no lamb is expendable in GOD's eyes.

As for "Clirus'" seemily neverending preoccupation with "GOD's JUDGMENT" - we actually spend our lives on earth passing judgement on ourselves.

How we treat/judge the "stray lambs" that we encounter as we pass through this world is no different than how we should expect to be TREATED/JUDGED by GOD.


You may consider the Stray Lamb as to be either an Atheist or a Christian, but I believe the Stray Lamb to be a Christian.

For the Atheist the following is applicable.

Revelation 3:20 states, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him and sup with him and he with me."
 
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jgarden

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You may consider the Stray Lamb as to be either an Atheist or a Christian, but I believe the Stray Lamb to be a Christian.

For the Atheist the following is applicable.

Revelation 3:20 states, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him and sup with him and he with me."
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THE GOOD SHEPHERD - John 10:11-18 (King James Version)

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
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Just as The Good Shepherd symbolizes Jesus in The Parable of the Lost Sheep, being "lost/astray" is synominous with "sin" - not only in this selection but throughout the Bible.

The "sheep in the fold" are Christians/Christ's Church, while the "other sheep I have, which are not of this fold" represents those who are living in sin outside Christ's flock.

The Greatest Commandment is even more explicit - in addition to loving God, we are commanded to love our neighbor - "And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

The Greatest Commandment like The Parable of the Lost Lamb, The Parable of the Lost Coin, etc. doesn't restrict our love to just our Christian neighbors - as demonstrated in The Parable of the Good Samaritan, the whole world is our neighbor.

You may consider the Stray Lamb as to be either an Atheist or a Christian, but I believe the Stray Lamb to be a Christian.(clitus)
This is all CHRISTIANITY 101, where does "clirus" get these ideas?
 
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clirus

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jgarden quote

John 10:16, And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Response

What does "not of this fold" mean.

Could it mean Atheists that must repent and accept Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior and commit to following the commandments/doctrines of the Bible?

You and I disagree on the meaning of much scripture, but it is interesting to discuss the differences.
 
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T

tanzanos

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jgarden quote

John 10:16, And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Response

What does "not of this fold" mean.

Could it mean Atheists that must repent and accept Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior and commit to following the commandments/doctrines of the Bible?

You and I disagree on the meaning of much scripture, but it is interesting to discuss the differences.
Unless you consider yourself a ruminating quadruped; he is referring to SHEEP!
 
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LightHorseman

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tanzanos quote

Mighty is the sword that draws blood! Mightier is the pen that draws ink! Mightiest is the tongue that draws ears!

Response

I use my pen/keyboard to rebuke Atheistic thinking.

Atheistic thinking has become popular in America because good men/Christians are doing nothing.
Rebuking thought is easy. Actually proving it incorrect with logic and evidence, thats something else.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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tanzanos quote

Mighty is the sword that draws blood! Mightier is the pen that draws ink! Mightiest is the tongue that draws ears!

Response

I use my pen/keyboard to rebuke Atheistic thinking.

Atheistic thinking has become popular in America because good men/Christians are doing nothing.

I use my keyboard to refute your claims that have no Biblical basis.

Unlike 'Atheistic thinking' though, your ideology is not popular; indeed, it's fallen into the abyss.
 
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tanzanos

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tanzanos quote

Mighty is the sword that draws blood! Mightier is the pen that draws ink! Mightiest is the tongue that draws ears!

Response

I use my pen/keyboard to rebuke Atheistic thinking.

Atheistic thinking has become popular in America because good men/Christians are doing nothing.
Wow! you failed to understand the meaning of my saying????????

So before you go spitting your vile poison at atheists perhaps you should consider that the two main and oldest Christian Churches consider you and your church as being heretic, and that you are doomed to fire and brimstone? In simple terms " No pearly gates for you "!:wave:
 
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clirus

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Wow! you failed to understand the meaning of my saying????????

So before you go spitting your vile poison at atheists perhaps you should consider that the two main and oldest Christian Churches consider you and your church as being heretic, and that you are doomed to fire and brimstone? In simple terms " No pearly gates for you "!:wave:

Who are these two main and oldest Christian Churches?
 
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TheNewWorldMan

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Catholic and Greek Orthodox. Now before you say anything about our church; consider in what language the bible was written in!

Doesn't matter. You don't hate gay people and atheists, so off to Hell you and your kind go. Achtung! Diese Weise zu den Duschen und zu entlausen!

;)
 
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TheNewWorldMan

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Another reason to keep church and state separate is human nature.

Having a person crowned as Pontiff of the Church and Chief Defender of the Faith, or Head of State and Maximum Leader, is corrosive enough to a person's morals. To allow any person to wear both of those hats...well, we all know what absolute power does now, don't we...
 
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clirus

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Seperation of church and state meant the state won't get involved in church affairs. Church could get involved ins state affairs, and it happens all the time.

This was to keep the Gov't of America from changing the Bible, something the European governments couldn't resist.

I believe the concept of Separation of Church and State was to prevent the Church from executing people for immorality as had been done in Europe and is now being done by the Muslims, and to prevent the State from establishing morals as was done by the courts legalizing pornography, abortion and homosexuality.

Both the Church and State are in the business of providing guidelines for people to live, so they will always be in agreement or in conflict.

The best way to deal with Separation of Church and State was stated by Blackstone.

William Blackstone: Of the Nature of Laws in General

William Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England states, "This law of nature, being coeval with mankind and dictated by God himself, is of course superior in obligation to any other-It is binding over all the globe in all countries, and at all times; no human laws are of any validity, if contrary to this: and such of them as are valid derive all their force, and all their authority, mediately or immediately, from this original."

The key point stated by Blackstone is that law was dictated by God himself, it is superior to all other law, and that no laws contrary to the laws dictated by God are valid.

This means that not everything stated in the Bible should be made into law, but that the Bible should be bases for all Laws.

This concept of Law is hated by Atheists because there evil cannot be made legal, and they have been very successful in legalizing pornography, abortion and homosexuality.

The Church and State can work together for the good of good people.

The Church should oppose sin/evil in obedience to God, and the State should oppose evil/sin because of health and economic reasons.

Evil is anything the Bible calls sin and physical reality shows lead to disease, death and destruction. The Bible is God's instructions on living a healthy lifestyle.

Adultery and homosexuality are examples of things that are evil/sin.

Christians need to control the government, but not use the government. When Atheists get control of the government, they use the government to spread Atheism.
 
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