Decision VS Free-Will

[randall jones]

worthwhile to review...haha. I guess I should clarify my stance. I am no authority when it comes to calvinism or arminianism or whatever other ism. I am simply a seeker of the Truth, and during my seeking have come to lean towards calvinism. Which is why I ask these questions as I would like to hear the differing views. I appreciate your taking the time to respond.

You can explain God but in a way you have put Him into a place that yes... it does not make too much sense. God is ever loving, God is all knowing and God is mercyful How can you know in advance that he calls some and he does not call all?
if you cannot answer any of these questions you are asking I think it would be indeed worthwhile to review who God is as revealed by Jesus Christ and put Him in that perspective.

Christ came to reveal God? Did he not? I concur. I concur.
Christ told us God is mercyful did he not? I concur.
Christ said the greatest commandment is love did he not? I concur.
Christ gave us many commandments to follow did he not? I concur.
Christ told us how to pray....the Lord's prayer. I concur.
Christ taught us that salvation is for all. All mankind? I concur. Salvation is for every single person in the world? I do not concur since everybody is not saved.

I wonder why he would do all this and die for us if it was a call to the already predestined? Sounds pointless and meaningless to me to have gone through such length for just saving few.... While punishing many.

Who are we to question what God does? Just because we don't like it doesn't make it any less true. Romans 9 i suppose, but I have a feeling the interpretation of that passage differs. I posted this earlier. Don't know if you came across it.

I think its safe to say all beliefs of Christianity say that God does indeed have a plan for us. Where they differ, is the "IF we decide to follow Him" part.

Doesn't sound like much of a plan to me.

I'm curious, honestly, do some really believe that God has a plan for us, but that plan's success is completely determined by us?

Is God's plan for us perfect and absolute? Obviously not, if we can "freely" choose to opt out at any given time.

Does scripture even say that God gave man free will? Or is that a man created idea? Oh, but we were created in the image of God, and God has free will therefore we do too. That's awesome! If that were the case, wouldn't we be all powerful and all knowing as well since we ARE created in the image of God right? I can't wait to create my own universe! Anybody have the instruction manual?


"I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.

He who comes to Him... and he who believes... in Him . To do this implies free will... not predestination.

It doesn't necessarily imply free will. It reads more like a statement, rather than instructions.
For example: "Plants will grow if they are watered."


40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Once again, reads as a statement...a fact...a for sure thing.
For example: "Every tree that is chopped down will be used for building."

JOhn 6: 35-40
Many quote the verses above but neglect to quote also these ones...

 

[bibleblevr]

I am not trying to argue or offend anyone either, but this bothers me a great deal. I am sure it bothers a lot more people. There is an underline futility in one's life when one finds out that it is all a program.

It wouldn't matter how bad I wanted to, say intentionally crash my car, because it is either written that I will, or I wont. Every single facet of our lives are either determined or undetermined, but the fact that ONE observes our past, present, and future means that it is already determined. Think Schrodinger's cat.

If someone can see what your future is, then you future is set. that removes free-will. However, even if someone doen't see our future, then, still, there is the lingistic fact that what will happen will happen. meaning that there is a future and the future will play out and what ever way it plays out is what will happen. That is the nature of the future. How does free-will fit in? decisions do choices do, but real free-will is imposible basd on the definition of future.

The problem that not having free-will poses to people is not that it makes no sence or that it isn't bibliclly and logicly backed, it is because people simply don't like thae idea. People think it makes their life meaningless or pointless. However, that is the wrong way to look at it, think of it this way, who do you want in control of everything in your life? God? or yourself? I think that the idea that God set up everything for the beginning is a wonderful thing. I have much more faith in God's judgment then mine and I would much rather he does evrything.

 

[noshame]

We are children of wrath by nature - Eph 2:1-3
Unjust/sinful - Eccl 7:20

Carnal - Rom 8:6-8

Corrupt – Rom 1:23
Evil - Jer 13:23
Liar - Ps 58:3
Drink sin like water - Job 15:15-16

Only Christ Jesus was and is Righteous, Faithful, and True!
Eccl 3:12-14
Jer 31:8
John 4:10
John 6:44
Rom 3:26-28
Rom 5
Rom 6:23
Rom 9:11-21
Tit 3:4-7
Eph 2:8
Rev 19:11

 

[randall jones]

randall jones,

Where in the Bible does it say God condemned all of mankind to hell? Also, you seem to be saying there are two hells. One for mankind generally, then the option, of predestination of either appointing to heaven or hell?

So mankind is not condemned to hell? Is that what you're saying? I thought it was commonly understood and agreed by the Christian community that mankind is condemned to go to hell because of sin ever since Adam sinned. If not, thats news to me and probably belongs in a different thread or even forum.

And no, i'm not saying there's two hells. ONE hell. Before Adam...no hell. After Adam...yes hell. Are some of mankind destined to go to hell and some destined going to heaven? Sure seems like it.

 

[Basis_Vectors]

So mankind is not condemned to hell? Is that what you're saying? I thought it was commonly understood and agreed by the Christian community that mankind is condemned to go to hell because of sin ever since Adam sinned. If not, thats news to me and probably belongs in a different thread or even forum.

And no, i'm not saying there's two hells. ONE hell. Before Adam...no hell. After Adam...yes hell. Are some of mankind destined to go to hell and some destined going to heaven? Sure seems like it.

Maybe Rightglory meant Gehenna/Sheol/Hades (grave) and actual Lake of Fire. Either way pre-Jesus we were all spiritually dead. Post-Jesus we an be spiritually alive yet if we fail this time we go to the Lake of Fire.

However, it still seems there is definitely predestination: those that will be saved, and the rest are to burn.

 

[Rightglory]

randall jones,

So mankind is not condemned to hell? Is that what you're saying? I thought it was commonly understood and agreed by the Christian community that mankind is condemned to go to hell because of sin ever since Adam sinned. If not, thats news to me and probably belongs in a different thread or even forum.

Mankind has never been condemned to hell. We, as human beings have NEVER been responsible for Adam's sin, or guilt. Only Adam is liable for his sin, as we are for ours.
The ONE sin of Adam resulted in the condemnation of death to Adam. Adam was made mortal, he died physically to a state of death, mortality. Gen 3:19. Man would be returned to dust from whence he came. Thus if Christ had not come and redeemed mankind from the fall, namely death and its corruption, namely sin, then man would simply die and cease to exist. Neither heaven or hell would be needed as there are no humans that would occupy either place.

Christ subsituted Himself, died for us, that condemnation of death through Adam, the curse would be lifted. This is what Christ overcame at His resurrection. He is the Savior of the world. He came to give LIFE, immortality to the world. By His resurrection all men shall be able to be raised in the last day, incurruptible and immortal. He rasied our mortal natures from death to life.

It has been the most central understanding of Christianity. Now, since all men will have an eternal existance, which was the created purpose of God, there can be a heaven or hell.

That eternal place of existance depends on man's choice regarding the offer Christ gives to every human, to come, to join with Him, now and for eternity. By His Resurrection Christ created a need for a heaven or hell.

It is the meaning and definition of the Incarnation. There never has been another meaning prior to protestantism.

This is only one aspect of Christ's work on the Cross. the other was atoning for the sin of the world.

 

[cygnusx1]

Maybe Rightglory meant Gehenna/Sheol/Hades (grave) and actual Lake of Fire. Either way pre-Jesus we were all spiritually dead. Post-Jesus we an be spiritually alive yet if we fail this time we go to the Lake of Fire.

However, it still seems there is definitely predestination: those that will be saved, and the rest are to burn.

there mosrt definately is predestination , the Bible uses the term without any sense of hesitation , even if some continue to read FOREknowledge every single time they see it .

If God merely forsees men's descisions and has no control over man's will then prayer is submission as in ISLAM , petitions are going to be useless because inevitably we say prayers that directly involve the belief that God can change human wills .

"Lord save my nearest and dearest" is destitute of meaning in a world where God is permitted to merely forsee and not change hearts .

when we pray that we may live peaceably without war or tyranny in our country are we not invoking the same concept that God is in control of mankind ? If He is only a spectator , forseeing all then we might as well plead with men and not The Lord .

it isn't Divine determination of events that causes the trouble , God works all things after the council of His will for good for those who love Him , it is the crystal ball view of God that is the real entrance to fatalism.

(no I am not an Apostle nor a CF , neither is anyone here )

 

[Philothei]

If someone can see what your future is, then you future is set.

questions:

How can someone who sees the future presets the future?

And God can see the future as He is all knowing How this takes place ? That is not for me to figure out as I am not God. If indeed I as able to figure this one out I would be having the mind of God that would be then that god is not of superior mind...

makes any sense? The free will we do have does not necessary exclude God from knowing which path we will lead. He knows the past the present and the future he knows how much grain of sand there is and the number of our hair... That is how immense his knoweldege is beyond our tiny little brain.....

 

[Philothei]

who do you want in control of everything in your life? God? or yourself? I think that the idea that God set up everything for the beginning is a wonderful thing. I have much more faith in God's judgment then mine and I would much rather he does evrything.

So when you sin then it is God's will to sin? And how is this your responsibility then? God cannot sin as we know he is sinless. So if it is not God then it is your own volition, you. No one to blame it on. God did not ask you to sin obviously...

 

[cygnusx1]

questions:

How can someone who sees the future presets the future?

And God can see the future as He is all knowing How this takes place ? That is not for me to figure out as I am not God. If indeed I as able to figure this one out I would be having the mind of God that would be then that god is not of superior mind...

makes any sense? The free will we do have does not necessary exclude God from knowing which path we will lead. He knows the past the present and the future he knows how much grain of sand there is and the number of our hair... That is how immense his knoweldege is beyond our tiny little brain.....

does He know who will be lost ?

 

[Philothei]

Of course he does that does not mean He does not love! Plus the chances are given just regardless He just knows what we will decide.

 

[Philothei]

If we would understand fully how God works with our salvation and how he forsees and he predestines .... yet he allows free will... Then we would be ourselves Gods and I think no one can claim to understand how God can forsee our will and our path yet he does not predestine it for us... ONLY God knows and thus the paradox.

 

[cygnusx1]

Of course he does that does not mean He does not love! Plus the chances are given just regardless He just knows what we will decide.

so , would you say God knew before He created heaven and earth each and every single person who would be damned ? did He know for certain who they would be ?

 

[bleitzel]

so , would you say God knew before He created heaven and earth each and every single person who would be damned ? did He know for certain who they would beh?

he didn.t have to, no. I think an omnipotent God could choose what He wished to know or not know. Otherwise He wouldn't be omnipotent!

 

[bibleblevr]

So when you sin then it is God's will to sin? And how is this your responsibility then? God cannot sin as we know he is sinless. So if it is not God then it is your own volition, you. No one to blame it on. God did not ask you to sin obviously...

Yes sin is in his will! Jesus's betrayal was fortold by the prophets and was necessary for the gift of salvation. Jesus's crucification, beatings, torment and agony were all prophesied and were all necessary in order to have salvation. Salvation was the plan before time, and God used sin to bring about his goal. Then he sent those who killed and betrayed his son to hell. God took the "free-will" of all of the men who killed Jesus away, and sent them to hell anyway. even though they were acting according to a plan set up long before them. Furthermore if they didn't do what they did, we would not be saved!

Does this make God a sinner? Of course not. this is like saying that George Lucus should be brought up on charges of murder because he wrote the script that let O-B-1 get killed by Darthvader. Or thats like telling John Stienbeck that he is guilty of the death of Lennie because he wrote a book were he was shot. both these things would be obserd! why? because the author created the people in the book and can do what he likes with them. He is not bound by the time in the story or the laws in the book. He is out side of that realty completely.

 

[bibleblevr]

If we would understand fully how God works with our salvation and how he forsees and he predestines .... yet he allows free will... Then we would be ourselves Gods and I think no one can claim to understand how God can forsee our will and our path yet he does not predestine it for us... ONLY God knows and thus the paradox.

I would agree with that, if I saw biblical evidence on the side of free-will. What I have found is that the bible never says free-will, nor does it ever describe us as truly capable of it. However, It does state that we can and do make choices and decisions, but these are not to be confused with free-will because a computer can also make decisions and choices. Thus the thread, if someone can explain through scripture that Free-will, (not decision making!) is described in the Bible I will put the issue in my paradox box along with Jesus being fully god and fully man, the the trinity (or triune nature of God whatever) and others. But first we would need a definition of free-will that is different that choice in order to find it in the good book.

 

[Rightglory]

bibleblevr,

I would agree with that, if I saw biblical evidence on the side of free-will. What I have found is that the bible never says free-will, nor does it ever describe us as truly capable of it. However, It does state that we can and do make choices and decisions, but these are not to be confused with free-will because a computer can also make decisions and choices. Thus the thread, if someone can explain through scripture that Free-will, (not decision making!) is described in the Bible I will put the issue in my paradox box along with Jesus being fully god and fully man, the the trinity (or triune nature of God whatever) and others. But first we would need a definition of free-will that is different that choice in order to find it in the good book.

If we were truly animals your definition would fit. But unlike animals, we can deliberate the influences and can make decisions that are not programed. We can decide against our desires which neither a computer or animals are able to perform. It is why animals are not held responsible for their actions and neither are computers.

Man is held responsible because he does have a will that can truly decide from many options.

It is the only thing that is explained in the Bible regarding man's choice and responsiblity.

 

[bibleblevr]

bibleblevr,


But unlike animals, we can deliberate the influences and can make decisions that are not programed. We can decide against our desires which neither a computer or animals are able to perform.

We can? How can we make a decision against our desire and were do you find this in the Bible? If the desire is to murder for example, and we decide against our murderous desire to be peaceable instead, this only proves that we have a stronger reason to desire peace than murder. Internal conflict does not have to do with free-will. Computers have to sort out conflicts all the time. For example, if your computer freezes, it is sorting out a conflict and is using a system to give one or the other priority.

 

[cygnusx1]

he didn.t have to, no. I think an omnipotent God could choose what He wished to know or not know. Otherwise He wouldn't be omnipotent!

impossible , furthermore illogical.

 

[Rightglory]

bibleblevr,

We can? How can we make a decision against our desire and were do you find this in the Bible? If the desire is to murder for example, and we decide against our murderous desire to be peaceable instead, this only proves that we have a stronger reason to desire peace than murder. Internal conflict does not have to do with free-will. Computers have to sort out conflicts all the time. For example, if your computer freezes, it is sorting out a conflict and is using a system to give one or the other priority.

Everytime you decide not to do a sin, you are overcoming your proclivity of man to sin. You create false dilemna in order to establish man has no free will. Any antecedent or direct cause of manipulating man's will takes all responsibility away from man. There is no text in all of scripture that says man is not liable for his sin.

We have commandments, exhortations all through scripture to not do what we do so easily do, sin. If we have no moral responsibility, then we could just as well murder anyone we wanted to, since it would not be our responsibility. I'm not sure where you would place it, except whoever programmed the cause, or antecedent cause of that action. Murder would only be a civil law, not a moral law.

People go on hunder strikes. They need to consciously and willfully change their desire from eating which their body is demanding, to not eat. That is a willful, conscious, deliberative decision of not eating. Animals cannot do this. Neither can computers.

We are commanded to align our wills with God's will. It is why He gave us His revelation and both showed us and gave us the commandments of how to live within His Will. This would be all nonsense if man is not responsible for his own decision making and what he does. We would not need His revelation of how to live IN HIM if He was the programmer, the direct cause, and antecedent cause of all of man's actions. It is absurd to think so.

There surely would be no need for a judgement.

Your interpretation voids most of scripture as irrelevant. Why do you need scripture, why would you need to know what God wants of you?