Decision VS Free-Will

cygnusx1.

amazing how some fing it hard it is to accept ....or is it understand God's decree is in eternity , Divine intervention is in time , prayer is not pointless , God responds to prayer , the decree of God is not a problem because it contains all things , even answers to prayers
the Divine intervention does NOT change God's decree , it merely changes the natural course of events should God not "act" in time ..... yes , He knew all along what He would do , but the eternal unchanging perspective is outworked in history in our lives and are necessary means God uses to fulfill His decree .
there is an example in scripture which bears witess to this truth , in ACTS

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I don't see any evidence you give of scripture where God changes a decree.
I may be wrong, but you have stated before that all acts of man are preordained, or decreed. Am I incorrect?
Can I assume that if a person was predestined to believe, that God can actually intervene and change it to reprobation?
Where in Acts is there an example of God changing a decree?

You did not answer the question. Does God have a will? Do you believe man is created in God's Image?

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins. (Eph 2:1)

And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, (Col 2:13)

Dead in trespasses and sins. Not sick, not crippled - dead.

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned (1 Cor 2:14)

For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor 1:18)

The Gospel and the things of the Spirit are foolishness and nonsense to the natural man. The fleshly mind is actually hostile to anything having to do with God. God is his enemy.

For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. (Rom 8:7)

None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one. (Rom 3:10-12)

Before we are regenerated by God it is impossible for us to choose to be saved.

After God saves us, however, we are able to choose to believe in his work for our salvation and to choose to return to him again and again in repenance.

Rightglory said:

cygnusx1.

I don't see any evidence you give of scripture where God changes a decree.

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why would I ?

I have already stated several times no chANGE in decree , God's decree is fixed .

Cygnusx1,

why would I ?

I have already stated several times no chANGE in decree , God's decree is fixed .

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So it was a misstatment on your part that God can intervene in a decree? Prayer is just words with no effect or meaning? It has already been set in stone by a decree before the foundations of the earth.

Since man is not a responsible agent, cannot make decisions, his acts are the result of decrees, do you believe man is not responsible for his actions.

CantateDomino,

Before we are regenerated by God it is impossible for us to choose to be saved.
After God saves us, however, we are able to choose to believe in his work for our salvation and to choose to return to him again and again in repenance.

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What does it mean to you to be "saved" or regenerated?

So it seems to me your understanding, regeneration means "saved" and that once saved, then we can choose or not choose to serve Christ, or fall away, lose faith?

Rightglory said:

So it was a misstatment on your part that God can intervene in a decree? Prayer is just words with no effect or meaning? It has already been set in stone by a decree before the foundations of the earth.

Since man is not a responsible agent, cannot make decisions, his acts are the result of decrees, do you believe man is not responsible for his actions.

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I see where you are coming from , It took a while now I see , the penny begins to drop ..........

cygnusx1,

I see where you are coming from , It took a while now I see , the penny begins to drop

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But you are either unwilling or unable to answer the questions. Which is it, or some other reason?

yes , unwilling ......... as I said I see now .
I would answer , you will continue to put words in my mouth , I will be on the defensive and you will continue to misconstrue everything I say .......... the cycle has been broken , because I see .

Cygnusx1,

yes , unwilling ......... as I said I see now .
I would answer , you will continue to put words in my mouth , I will be on the defensive and you will continue to misconstrue everything I say .......... the cycle has been broken , because I see

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All I see is that you are unwilling, probably because you cannot .
Don't you know your position well enough to explain it? You have had this cop out before.

What words have I put into your mouth. I just repeated what you stated. I asked questions but not a single one was answered. I got mostly, nonsubstantive replies. One-liners with no connection or explanation. It leaves one wondering.

If God didn't want evil in the world and it still persists; then He ether not powerful enough to stop it or he wants it to continue in order to serve a greater purpose. I subscribe to the latter

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Just because evil exists that does not mean that either God wants it or not.. I think God is irrelevant to the evil. He did not create it either as it is the negation of goodness.

If God created evil he is then not the God of love as he would do this to send the evildoers there... Thus if God is no author of evil why would he had predestined there anyone?

Why would God want to predestine everyone to heaven? why would he want to have no sin in the universe? why would he want to have a universe that is perfect and resembles Jesus ? He already has Jesus, why would he want another one?

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I say he has not "predestined" for either heaven or hell...
I do not know; we know only that in John God loved mankind and he sent his own beloved Son for our salvation.

Also God in genesis creates ex nihilo and it all "good" He created. All creation was good.

Rightglory said:

Cygnusx1,

[/b] All I see is that you are unwilling, probably because you cannot .[/size][/font]
Don't you know your position well enough to explain it? You have had this cop out before.

What words have I put into your mouth. I just repeated what you stated. I asked questions but not a single one was answered. I got mostly, nonsubstantive replies. One-liners with no connection or explanation. It leaves one wondering.

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wonder is good .

Prayer ......

Prayer has great value , I pray this day about my work (to move to another shift) , I know what I want , I don't have the full picture so I pray that if it's right for me that I will have it , and if it's bad for me then Lord prevent me from having it ! see I take that God controls all , even the descision my boss has yet to make

what is more I pray with assurance that God is good and that

God controls all events in our lives ;

[13] Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
[14] Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
[15] For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
[16] But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.
[17] Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

who here hasn't prayed for something that involves asking GOD to CHANGE or overule some human , either a boss , a friend , a President etc etc

we need to be much more honest about this subject ..

do we or do we not pray daily that God would do things that involve changing and overuling human wills , just think about all your prayers and what you expect God is able to do......... write some of your prayers out and see .

His intervention (in time) takes place according to His decree (in eternity ) it's not even a difficult concept.

IF He has decreed (in eternity) He will intervene at a given point in time then He will , the decree of God is not replacing or denying or contradicting the outworking of that decree , that would be to confuse Divine Providence with the Divine Decree . Divine Providence is the unfolding of the Decree ........ your reply is a contradiction , it completely ignores or overlooks the outworking of God's decree (assuming what will happen will happen anyway ) and takes no account for just how God will impliment His will , using secondary means .

The one example that springs easily to mind is Judas .....

How would Christ be handed over to His enemies and crucified ?

was it left to chance ? fortune or fate ? God forbid !

Acts 2

[22] Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
[23] Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Acts 4

[25] Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
[26] The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
[27] For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
[28] For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

God intervenes , yes acts , in accordance with His decree

Prayer implies , ney demands a belief in Divine intervention .

amazing how some fing it hard it is to accept ....or is it understand God's decree is in eternity , Divine intervention is in time , prayer is not pointless , God responds to prayer , the decree of God is not a problem because it contains all things , even answers to prayers

the Divine intervention does NOT change God's decree , it merely changes the natural course of events should God not "act" in time ..... yes , He knew all along what He would do , but the eternal unchanging perspective is outworked in history in our lives and are necessary means God uses to fulfill His decree .

there is an example in scripture which bears witess to this truth , in ACTS

cygnusx1,

Divine Providence is the unfolding of the Decree ........ your reply is a contradiction , it completely ignores or overlooks the outworking of God's decree (assuming what will happen will happen anyway ) and takes no account for just how God will impliment His will , using secondary means

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The Bible never says that man is controlled by decrees in the first place. Most of what man does is not by decrees. You are confusing Providence, the active working of God in his universe which He does by His uncreated energies. By His providence He DOES NOT change your will. It is you that changes your will because of what God puts in your path. Civil goverments do this to us all the time. Traffic control is a form of civil providence but it does not change your will. You are just as easily able to disobey that traffic signal as to obey. Your theology says that God so directs by decree that the fact that you went through a light is God's action by decree.

Your theology gets you into trouble in dealing with sin. You of necessity must place sin in the hands of God. God created evil, is the agent of evil and directs evil in each and every man. It completely eliminates satan as an agent himself within this creation.
You place man's action upon his nature of necessity. Your theology states that man's nature is in opposition to God which is why man cannot do any good.

As to humans being nothing more than their nature, this leads to modalism in God, because if God is nothing but his nature, this cannot logically entail a Trinitarian enhypostatization of the Persons. The fact is we are persons not just natures because we are in His Image. Which also rejects the humanity of Christ because Christ's human nature would be in opposition with His Divine, when in reality it was in cooperation. Which is why man has a will and must work to keep his will in alignment with God's will for us.

Your example of Judas is not remotely by decree. Christ dying for man was a decree. It was placed in time when God foresaw the evil of men. God did not cause those men to crucify Christ. Judas was not decreed to betray Christ. God knew that he would do so, thus chose him for that reason to fulfill a prophecy. That act of Judas is solely through the action of Judas not God. Judas was as free to do otherwise.
If it is as you say, then God cannot judge Judas for what He did, He cannot hold the men who crucified Him accountable for their sin because it was God's act, not theirs. Christ prayed to forgive them, for they know not what they do. Why pray for forgiveness when it was God who did the sin of these man apart from themselves. Your theology places all blame on God, not man.

God's council is that man operates through his free will. That is how it was set up with Adam in the beginning. God did not decree Adam to sin. Adam was given a choice. God knew the choice and worked with the choice. Adam is responsible for his sin, not God.

There is no necessity or inherency that God must decree something in order to know some event will occur.

This also goes to the theory of Reformed predestination. Within scripture it is an impossibility unless God is the sole moveable agent in this universe. Man becomes a tool, a receptacle to move the agency of God. If man is predestined to believe by decree, then sin is irrelevant. The soul of man is saved by some selective method unknown to man, and is limited to those God has selected. There is no text, nothing in scripture, and nothing in historical Christianity that ever held such a view of God. Christ becomes irrelevant because sin is irrelevant to God. What purpose does Christ serve to atone for sin when God is the creator and agent of sin. It does not effect man in any way.

Prayer is relevant and real because God does not operate with man by decree. This concept comes from the view that grace is a created element in this world, rather than an uncreated energy of God. You need to keep God completely transcendent otherwise there would be a mixture of His Essence in creation which is Pantheism. This is why it is so akin to Dieism.

Give me an example from scripture where God accepts the sin or act of a person, rather than lay the sin at man's doorstep?

first there arn't decrees , there is just God's decree , theologians only divide it up to try and see an order .

Is God's decree fully comprehensive ?does God rule over all events in human history?

yes .

how many things does God work together for good for those who love Him? all things .


Romans8
[28] And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.


does scripture anywhere else testify to this truth? yes .

Ephesians 1:11

[11] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

does scripture teach that mens wills are independent of God's will? no.

Proverbs 16

Prov.16

[1] The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
[2] All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.
[3] Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established.
[4] The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
[5] Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.
[6] By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.
[7] When a man's ways please the LORD, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.
[8] Better is a little with righteousness than great revenues without right.
[9] A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.


is man responsible for his sin? yes.

does God hold man accountable for what God has ordained to come to pass ? yes

How so ?

God meant it for good but man meant it for evil , what if God desiring to show ;

Romans 9
[19] Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
[20] Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
[21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
[22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
[23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Rightglory said:

CantateDomino,


What does it mean to you to be "saved" or regenerated?

So it seems to me your understanding, regeneration means "saved" and that once saved, then we can choose or not choose to serve Christ, or fall away, lose faith?

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Yes, pretty much. "Saved" is a problematic term. We are saved, we are being saved, we will be saved.

The moment we are regenerated we are just as saved as a person who has endured and persevered and been sanctified for 90 years, yet those who will ultimately be saved have endured and persevered and been sanctified all through their Christian life - but not in order to earn or deserve their salvation but as a result of their salvation.

cygnusx1,

Is God's decree fully comprehensive ?does God rule over all events in human history?

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This is a false dilemna within your theology. Saying this does not preclude that God works with man in those events. That man is free within the sovereign will of God and all men are the same.

how many things does God work together for good for those who love Him? all things .

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But man must choose to love God first. God does not do the choosing. Man is free to love or to reject. And every man has this choice. God does not preclude this choice from any of his creatures created in His Image.

[11] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

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An inheritance available for every soul that liveth, IF the believe. That when we believe and become an elect, then God has ordained (predestined) that He would work with us to ensure that inheritance. His will includes the working with man's will, that any man can love, and any man can also change his mind regarding that love. Love is not prescribed by God. There is no text in all of scripture to support a view that man is not free to choose. It is the essence of the God/Man relationship. Without it nothing has meaning.

does scripture teach that mens wills are independent of God's will? no.

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Incorrect. We see this in the Incarnation as the best example. Man's will is not the same as God's will. They are completely separated and independent. Otherwise you have God doing God's will through man instead of by man. It is our obligation to align our will with God's will. That is the essence of our relationship with God. It cannot be otherwise and still be a relationship.
Prov.16
[1] The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
[2] All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.
[3] Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established.
[4] The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
[5] Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.
[6] By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.
[7] When a man's ways please the LORD, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.
[8] Better is a little with righteousness than great revenues without right.
[9] A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.[/quote] These verses do not even address your theological point. This is a continual litney of man doing, thinking in juxaposition of God doing. Nothing here indicates that God is doing what it says man does. It does not say that men depart from evil because God caused them to depart. Man's ways please the Lord, not the Lord's ways please the Lords.

is man responsible for his sin? yes.

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that is because the Bible says this. But your theological view has not yet aligned this great contradiction. You have placed sin squarely into God's hand and man is left bereft of choice.

does God hold man accountable for what God has ordained to come to pass ? yes

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I suppose you are speaking here of either Judas or Christ's crucifixion. If so, it is incorrect. Man is not held responsible for what God ordained, namely that Christ voluntarily delievered Himself up to be crucified. God did not ordain or decree that certain men would crucify him. God knew, by His foreknowledge that men in time would choose to kill Christ. That is why man is held accountable because it was man's choice, not God's. This is God using the acts of sinful men. He punished Isreal twice with captivity because Isreal disobedied. God did not disobey for Isreal so that God could then send them into captivity by using a wicked King.

Romans 9
[19] Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
[20] Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
[21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
[22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
[23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.

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This text is out of context for the scope of our discussion. We are not speaking about the salvation of man by a Messiah. The fact that God choose a man to create a nation from which the Messiah would come, then abolish that nation when the function was completed. It has nothing to do with the God/man relationship dealing with the salvation of ones soul.
What you can apply here is that God created man with a will. We cannot do anything about that aspect of our existance. All we can do is work with what we are given. God requires that man use that gift of will, and to use it the way He desires. that is why He created man in the first place. That is why there will be a judgement, a day of accountablility because of what man did, not God decreeing what he did.

cygnusx1 said:

first there arn't decrees , there is just God's decree , theologians only divide it up to try and see an order .

Is God's decree fully comprehensive ?does God rule over all events in human history?

yes .

how many things does God work together for good for those who love Him? all things .


Romans8
[28] And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.


does scripture anywhere else testify to this truth? yes .

Ephesians 1:11

[11] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

does scripture teach that mens wills are independent of God's will? no.

Proverbs 16

Prov.16

[1] The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
[2] All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.
[3] Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established.
[4] The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
[5] Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.
[6] By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.
[7] When a man's ways please the LORD, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.
[8] Better is a little with righteousness than great revenues without right.
[9] A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.


is man responsible for his sin? yes.

does God hold man accountable for what God has ordained to come to pass ? yes

How so ?

God meant it for good but man meant it for evil , what if God desiring to show ;

Romans 9
[19] Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
[20] Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
[21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
[22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
[23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Click to expand...

My problem with all of this is God still knows everything we do before we do it. We can all have free will and "choose" a [constructive or destructive] path, but the path was already laid out for us at least in the knowledge of God. He knows every decision we will do and what we will make of each situation.

It seems highly paradoxical and almost unfair to put humans for whom it is written they WILL fail in a world that is continually evil. But, then again like you say I am but a lowly potter compared to Him. So I don't know anything from anything...

I see no dilema , and no ships .... only hardships

God Is sovereign . Free will is nothing but a philosophical concept that almost never gets defined .

simply put there is NO limit to God's rule , there is a limit to man's freedom.

Basis_Vectors said:

My problem with all of this is God still knows everything we do before we do it. We can all have free will and "choose" a [constructive or destructive] path, but the path was already laid out for us at least in the knowledge of God. He knows every decision we will do and what we will make of each situation.

It seems highly paradoxical and almost unfair to put humans for whom it is written they WILL fail in a world that is continually evil. But, then again like you say I am but a lowly potter compared to Him. So I don't know anything from anything...

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yes , the way some hide from God's predestination over evil events such as the crucifixion , and attempt to reduce it to mere foreknowledge (ignoring the explicit reference in scripture) makes little further than push the argument back one more step ...... Foreknowledge implies far more questions than foreordination ever did .