Debunking Pre-Trib

[zeke37]

if ya wanna take a shot, give me your best reasons for believing in pretrib,
and i'll debunk it using the bible.

 

[Hog Red]

if ya wanna take a shot, give me your best reasons for believing in pretrib,
and i'll debunk it using the bible.

if the Church is not raptured prior to the tribulation then we would know exactly when Christ's return is. can you explain.

 

[zeke37]

how so?
how do you think you will know when day one of the trib is ? or the midst ?
God knows, but we do not.
plus, Jesus teaches in the gospels that the time is shortened for the elect's sake.

we certainly will know the season.
not the hour or day exactly perhaps....but the season.

and Jesus gave us the signs so we can be watchful for His Coming.

but that line of thought deserves another comment.
that teaching is more properly meant for all of us, since His crusifixion,
not to set dates for His future return.

as we have recently seen, some ministers set dates for, what i believe to be, a fictional pre trib coming for Christ.

this has undoubtedly led some of the flock away...as the practishioners see the date(s) come and go,
and realize the farce.

so, we are not supposed to set future dates for His return...whether it be pre trib or post.

but certainly when we, as I believe, are in the thick of things during the trib,
the signs shall be plentiful and the wise shall understand.

the rapture, according to 1Thes4 and 1Cor15 happens when the faithfull dead are raised and gathered together with the faithfull living.
the rising of the dead, happens on the last day, according to multiple OT and NT scriptures

 

[Hog Red]

do you really think that the tribulation will begin without anyone knowing it?

 

[zeke37]

the whole world, except a scant few elect, will be deceived and not even know they are in that time at all.
IOW most Christians will be deceived/seduced/beguiled, by Satan's false Christ role and his kingdom....and worship him thinking he is Jesus returned.


i dont count 7 years, or 3.5 years as the trib to begin with...
i think it has been shortened to the 5 months of Rev9's 5th trump.
but i also dont even have to go there because while I understand what you are saying, count 1260 days from such and such,
pre trib is still but a theory.


we have some FACTS tho. concerning when the gathering is...
and I will base my theology on fact rather than tradition or opinion only.

so i will ask you a question that we can all look up in the bible and see the answer to.

do you really think the dead are raised earlier than on the last day?

because that's the way it would have to be for pre trib to work....
and there are plently of examples in the bible of teachings about when the dead will be raised...
and it is on the last day, not 7 or 3.5 years earlier.

 

[Hog Red]

tell you what, you stick around if you want to and i'll see ya 7 years later!

 

[Biblewriter]

how so?
how do you think you will know when day one of the trib is ? or the midst ?
God knows, but we do not.
plus, Jesus teaches in the gospels that the time is shortened for the elect's sake.

we certainly will know the season.
not the hour or day exactly perhaps....but the season.

and Jesus gave us the signs so we can be watchful for His Coming.

but that line of thought deserves another comment.
that teaching is more properly meant for all of us, since His crusifixion,
not to set dates for His future return.

as we have recently seen, some ministers set dates for, what i believe to be, a fictional pre trib coming for Christ.

this has undoubtedly led some of the flock away...as the practishioners see the date(s) come and go,
and realize the farce.

so, we are not supposed to set future dates for His return...whether it be pre trib or post.

but certainly when we, as I believe, are in the thick of things during the trib,
the signs shall be plentiful and the wise shall understand.

the rapture, according to 1Thes4 and 1Cor15 happens when the faithfull dead are raised and gathered together with the faithfull living.
the rising of the dead, happens on the last day, according to multiple OT and NT scriptures

You missed the entire point of Hog Red's post.

The Lord will return exactly 1260 days after the Abomination of desolation, which will itself occur exactly 1260 days after the confirmation of a treaty guaranteeing seven years of peace for Israel. If this is the rapture, then those still here will know the exact day of the rapture seven years before it happens. This would explicitly contradict Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32.

 

[zeke37]

tell you what, you stick around if you want to and i'll see ya 7 years later!

ok thanks for the permission.
i don't know what the problem is.
seems strait forward to me.

the rapture happens after the dead are raised,
and the dead are raised on the last day.

how can you argue?

You missed the entire point of Hog Red's post.

no i did not.

The Lord will return exactly 1260 days after the Abomination of desolation, which will itself occur exactly 1260 days after the confirmation of a treaty guaranteeing seven years of peace for Israel.

that is only a theory. i know where u get it from.
but Jesus teaches that the time of tribulation was shortened for the elect's sake.

we shall know the season, but not the exact hour....until it is here.

and my point to him was made fine.
that is meant to say, don't forcast what year He's gonna come.
like folks always do with big dates...1000 AD, 1900 AD, 2000 AD,

and what they do in todays day, with regards to cults supposedly leaving in May/Sept/Oct of this year...etc.


rapture setting dates.
we see it here ALL THE TIME.

IT'S SAD BECAUSE THOSE DATES COME AND GO,
AND WITH THE PASSING OF THOSE DATES, WHEN NOTHING HAPPENS,
UNDOUBTEDLY LEAD SOME AWAY FROM THE TRUTH OF THE LORD.

SO, INSTEAD OF THEORY, LET'S STICK TO FACT.
sorry hit cap lock.

instead of guessing when He is coming, let's wait for the signs, recognize the time we are in,
and wait patiently for His return.
on the last day, which is when the dead are raised

If this is the rapture, then those still here will know the exact day of the rapture seven years before it happens. This would explicitly contradict Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32.

no we would not. many scholars disagree about whether those scriptures are meant to be at trib's end,
with Christ's arrival
or at Millennium's end with the judgement when the heavens actually pass away.

do you think heaven passes away at Christ's gathering, even if it is pre trib? no.

35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
​

so this easily could be taking about when heaven and earth pass away (earth rejuvinated).

meet the callenge that i brought, because it is not subjective....
it is not a guess.
it is simply combining 2 already stated prophesies (and these are repeated prophesies).

acc to 1Thes4/1Cor15, the rapture happens after the dead are raised.
and we know from multiple scriptures that the dead are raised on the last day.


how can u get passed that?
until you can provide an adequate answer to that, there is no need to entertain pre trib at all.



but i love Mat24 so i don't mind going over that with you again.
the chapter continues....

above it was about when heaven is destroyed.
below it is about when the Lord Comes here.

37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

so we know who "they" are representations of.
Christians who will not listen. Who love not the truth.

39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

ok, so there is a flood coming, (Satan's trib) and those that knew not will be TAKEN in it.

i firmly believe that most all the world, including most Christians,
shall not recognize when they are actualy IN the trib, when it comes.
-especially easy to understand if pre trib is not true, and one believes in pre trib.

logically, if you are expecting to be taken out before the trib,
would mean that you are never looking for the signs that announce the trib.
can't you see my concern?

40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

so, one is taken in the flood, and one is left in the field.

41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

as a Christian, you should know what the anaolgy is for grinding at the mill.
one is taken in the trib's flood, one is left grinding.

42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

in verse 36 it was the "day" that we don't know, IMO speaking of when heaven passes away.

here, in verse 42 it is about the "hour" of the Lord's Coming.

we don't know the hour, until the hour is upon us.
the hour of temptation.

we shall know the season and be able to follow all the signs in the bible given to us.
like what we would have just read through ALL the chapter of Mat24.

seems a waist to teach us all through this chapter, of the signs,
if we are not here to observe them

43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

so counting 1260 days from such and such won't cut it.
plus, earlier in the chapter Jesus says the time is shortened for the elect's sake.

45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

the ones blessed are the ones LEFT working...
not the ones taken.

47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

iow, the evil SERVANT thinks...He's not coming because of these signs...

that works both for pre trib, and for those who believe He will not return during these signs.
that is why we are given the signs to begin with

49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

if you expect to be gathered to Christ pre trib,
you certainbly won't be expecting Him when He actually does come post trib.

51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

this is speaking of His servants, not those that do not believe.

 

[Biblewriter]

no i did not.


that is only a theory. i know where u get it from.
but Jesus teaches that the time of tribulation was shortened for the elect's sake.

It is not a theory that the scriptures will be fulfilled exactly as they are written. That is simply faith. But it is only a theory, and a bad one at that, that the shortening of the days means that God will not allow the tribulation to last as long as He himself said it would last.

 

[zeke37]

It is not a theory that the scriptures will be fulfilled exactly as they are written. That is simply faith. But it is only a theory, and a bad one at that, that the shortening of the days means that God will not allow the tribulation to last as long as He himself said it would last.

actually, it's an angel that gives the days both in Daniel and in Rev.
and Christ teaches that not man nor even the angels know.
Only God.
and it might be literal days or symbolic of years. either is a theory.


but all that is not even going to be considered by me until you meet my challlenge.
vvv
vv
v

the rapture of 1Thes4 and 1Cor15 happens after the dead are raised.
and the dead are raised on the very last day.


i told u i respected you biblical scholarship in every aspect except on the timing of the rapture.
i have the feeling that you are ignoring the proof that i offered, and instead comment on something else.
i don't understand why.
aren't we all here for truth?
this is proof positive.

 

[Biblewriter]

actually, it's an angel that gives the days both in Daniel and in Rev.
and Christ teaches that not man nor even the angels know.
Only God.
and it might be literal days or symbolic of years. either is a theory.


but all that is not even going to be considered by me until you meet my challlenge.
vvv
vv
v

the rapture of 1Thes4 and 1Cor15 happens after the dead are raised.
and the dead are raised on the very last day.


i told u i respected you biblical scholarship in every aspect except on the timing of the rapture.
i have the feeling that you are ignoring the proof that i offered, and instead comment on something else.
i don't understand why.
aren't we all here for truth?
this is proof positive.

Your first statement seems to imply that you do not consider the time periods specified in the book of Daniel as reliable. It is serious bad doctrine to cast doubt on anything the word of God says.

All the prophecies about the first coming of Messiah were fulfilled literally, down to the very last detail. Therefore it is only reasonable to expect the prophecies about his future coming to be fulfilled in the same literal detail. The day, month, and year prophecies about the end time period all work out to exactly the same length of time, One period of seven years, consisting of two half periods of three and a half years, which are the same as two periods of 42 months and two periods of 1260 days (each of which is exactly 3-1/2 Jewish years.)

Please provide a scriptural basis for your claim that the dead are raised "on the very last day."

Revelation 20:4-5 very distinctly says, "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

This short section conclusively proves that there are a thousand years between the resurrection of the righteous and the resurrection of the wicked. But it is only after the wicked dead are resurrected at the end of the thousand years that they are judged in Revelation 20 11-15.

According to John 36:39, 6:40, 6:44, and 6:54, the righteous are raised "at the last day," but according to John 12:48, the wicked are judged "in the last day."

These apparently conflicting statements simply prove that the scriptural term "the last day" is generic, and not a reference to a particular twenty-four hour period.

 

[Choose Wisely]

the rapture of 1Thes4 and 1Cor15 happens after the dead are raised.
and the dead are raised on the very last day.


.

After the dead are raised???? ...........NO........AFTER THE RIGHTEOUS DEAD ARE RAISED.

If the "REST OF THE DEAD ARE RAISED AFTER THE 1000 YEARS" the other dead...the righteous dead are raised before the 1000 years.

This is simply proof positive that you are wrong. Not sure why you have trouble accepting clear Biblical facts.

 

[zeke37]

Your first statement seems to imply that you do not consider the time periods specified in the book of Daniel as reliable. It is serious bad doctrine to cast doubt on anything the word of God says.

i am remembeing that the length of the trib has been cut short, as explicitely stated in the gospels by Jesus...
for the elect's sake.
what was 1260 days, has been shortened.

All the prophecies about the first coming of Messiah were fulfilled literally, down to the very last detail.

days = years...a week (7 days)= 7 years.
it might not be as strait forward as you think.
iow, they might not be literal days.
they certainly were not in daniel.

if it were 7 years, not even the elect would be able to stand.
they too would be deceived as the rest of the world will be.

here is proof from daniel that weeks can = years.

24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
​

since rev is a counterpart to daniel, the same might be said about those 1260 days.

Therefore it is only reasonable to expect the prophecies about his future coming to be fulfilled in the same literal detail. The day, month, and year prophecies about the end time period all work out to exactly the same length of time, One period of seven years, consisting of two half periods of three and a half years, which are the same as two periods of 42 months and two periods of 1260 days (each of which is exactly 3-1/2 Jewish years.)

i understand the math fine.
Jesus taught that not even the angels in heaven know.

so, following that through, the angel in Daniel did not know...
he said what God told Him to say, for sure....but...
as Jesus also teaches, the time was cut short for the elect's sake.
and as we have just read in Daniel, time is not literal.

Please provide a scriptural basis for your claim that the dead are raised "on the very last day."

really?
why dont you type the last day, into a search engine and see what comes up.
it may be hard for you to believe me, because we differ on the timing of the rapture,
so, sometimes i find it is better if someone figures something out for themselves.

because if the righteous are raised on the last day, it throws pre trib out the window completely...especially if that day is 1000 years long.

Revelation 20:4-5 very distinctly says, "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

This short section conclusively proves that there are a thousand years between the resurrection of the righteous and the resurrection of the wicked. But it is only after the wicked dead are resurrected at the end of the thousand years that they are judged in Revelation 20 11-15.

i agree.
however, when the Lord comes a gathering, there shall be time no longer.

5And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
​

the last day is the Millennium.
some are raised at it's beginning, and some are raised at it's end for judgement.

the last day could not be before the Millennium, right?
i think u'll agree.
so if the righteous are raised on the last day, then that cancells out pre trib all together.

According to John 36:39, 6:40, 6:44, and 6:54, the righteous are raised "at the last day," but according to John 12:48, the wicked are judged "in the last day."

see above.

These apparently conflicting statements simply prove that the scriptural term "the last day" is generic, and not a reference to a particular twenty-four hour period.

i agree. not 24 hours. 1000 years.
but not 1007 years.

it can't be the last day, with 7 years to go before time is no longer.

 

[zeke37]

After the dead are raised???? ...........NO........AFTER THE RIGHTEOUS DEAD ARE RAISED.

agreed....and that only strengthens my position and weakens yours.

If the "REST OF THE DEAD ARE RAISED AFTER THE 1000 YEARS" the other dead...the righteous dead are raised before the 1000 years.

the righteous are raised on the last day, therefore as the Millennium begins...the DAY of the Lord.

This is simply proof positive that you are wrong. Not sure why you have trouble accepting clear Biblical facts.

well, scripture says the righeous dead are raised on the last day. biblical fact.
scripture says the gathering to Christ happens after the dead are raised. biblical fact.
it doesn't take a genious to figure it out.

one of us is listening to biblical fact, and one is listening to fiction.
now, i just posted the biblical facts...
you can argue it with the Holy Spirit if you don't believe the scriptures.

 

[RDoubleU]

40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

so, one is taken in the flood, and one is left in the field.

41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

as a Christian, you should know what the anaolgy is for grinding at the mill.
one is taken in the trib's flood, one is left grinding.

So you’re saying, looking at verses 40 and 41, the one taken in the ‘flood’ was not a Christian and the one left in the field is? Or is it the other way around? And one of the women left grinding is Christian and the other taken is not? Or is this the other way around? Actually is doesn’t matter because if you look at this logically I cannot fit into the post-trib view simply because if this was to occur towards the end of the tribulation how do you explain two individuals, one with the mark, working together, or even in the same area during this time? By reading revelations, at this point, lines will have been clearly drawn in the sand. Also, why would anyone be working in a field or grinding during this time period? These verses have to be placed somewhere in the timeline of the end for it was asked of Christ, by the disciples, to tell of the end of the world. The one thing that has to be accounted for is will one have the mark or not? I don’t think there will be any kumbaya sessions at this time after everything is all said and done. Only other logical fit for this is either pre-trib or mid-trib.

Good example is do you think a Democrat and a Republican can be grinding at the mill? No, they’ll more than likely stare at each other then leave because of what they believe.

 

[zeke37]

40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

so, one is taken in the flood, and one is left in the field.

41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

as a Christian, you should know what the anaolgy is for grinding at the mill.
one is taken in the trib's flood, one is left grinding.


So you’re saying, looking at verses 40 and 41, the one taken in the ‘flood’ was not a Christian and the one left in the field is? Or is it the other way around?

the ones taken in the flood in Noah's time, are likened to the decived ones in the trib's time.
Christians are here for it all.
here's my take...
in the trib/end times, most Christians will be deceived/seduced by Satan....
they will be taken in the flood of lies that comes from the dragon's mouth.
they will believe a lie and worship Satan, thinking he is Jesus returned.

the elect will not be deceived.
they will continue to work for Jesus through that time of trial.

so, one is taken, and one is left.

And one of the women left grinding is Christian and the other taken is not? Or is this the other way around?

as we find out later in the chapter, this analogy is about the servants, whether evil or not.
that is why Jesus spent so much time in this very chapter (and it's counterpart in Mark13) teaching us all;
-of the signs and what to expect, how we know the season
-and not to be deceived
-that there will be a false teachers and even The false Christ Coming before the True Lord comes
-that Jesus' Coming to gather together the elect from heaven and earth, happens after the tribulation of those days

Actually is doesn’t matter because if you look at this logically I cannot fit into the post-trib view simply because if this was to occur towards the end of the tribulation how do you explain two individuals, one with the mark, working together, or even in the same area during this time?

many people misunderstand the mark of the beast.
but there are two marks..
the elect are sealed with the mark of God...the seal of God
the deceived/seduced bride to be, are branded with the mark of the beast,

both are not literal marks or tattoo's or micro-chips...

God's mark, explained the exact same way, is found in Ex13, Deut6, Deut11 to name a few places.
at the top of the teaching, is that we are only to Worship God alone.

Satan's mark is explained the same way, is opposite in the way that if we accept him as God, then we'd have his mark.

God has shortened the trib's length for the elect's sake, because if He had not, then even they would be deceived

this shortening allows one to prepare for the time when they cannot use the NWO currency.
we can storehouse food and supplies
we can barter or trade for the same
God will provide.

By reading revelations, at this point, lines will have been clearly drawn in the sand.

in Rev there are plenty of ways to prove post trib.
an easy one is Rev12 where we can read that Satan is cast to the earth for his short time, the trib,
and woe to us on earth.
we see that satan goes after the remenant of the woman which is those that keep the commandments (especially the first one) and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

obviously there are Christians here at that time.
7 candlesticks defined in Rev1 as the 7 curches
Rev2-3 individually describes these churches
5 of them are chasptized by Christ
2 of them are not, and these 2 share the same doctrine
that the other 5 do not share.
in Rev11 only 2 of them are witnesses for Jesus.

the two candlestick witnesses, are churches, according to God in Rev1.

this lines up with 2Thes2 and 1Tim4 which teach that there is an apostasy of the faith coming...
and that only the elect would be redeemed of men as Rev14 shows.

Also, why would anyone be working in a field or grinding during this time period?

working in the field has been an analogy for working for God, since Adam and Noah did in Genisis.

either your working for Him in the trib, or you are taken in the flood instead.
you can't do both.

this analogy shows that we are all here and working for Him
and then the trib's flood comes. (not a literal flood)
and 1 is taken in the flood, while the other remains working.

These verses have to be placed somewhere in the timeline of the end for it was asked of Christ, by the disciples, to tell of the end of the world. The one thing that has to be accounted for is will one have the mark or not?

Yes its about what happens at the end of the world.

I don’t think there will be any kumbaya sessions at this time after everything is all said and done.

the faithfull part of the church is going to have many, i'm sure.
the unfaithfull part won't because they will be deceived and not even know that they are in that time to beign with.
they are tricked/deceived/seduced into believing that the supernatural, beautiful, incredibly intelligent, and very real fallen angel Satan,
is Jesus returned.
they accept him, thinking he is Christ, and accept his kingdom (which is in the trib)

Only other logical fit for this is either pre-trib or mid-trib.

those are the illogical ones.

Good example is do you think a Democrat and a Republican can be grinding at the mill? No, they’ll more than likely stare at each other then leave because of what they believe.

maybe it's that independant that knows what's really going on,
but just can't get enough votes to be the majority (or the opposition)
that is how it will be for the elect/faithfull.
the basis for this thread, for debunking purposes,
was to see if any pre trib(or mid trib for that matter) believer
can show how their end time position can stand up to these two facts....

the righteous dead are raised on/at the last day.

the gathering to Christ in 1Thes4 and 1Cor15 happens after the dead are raised.



that throws out all possibilities except post trib.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

the last day could not be before the Millennium, right?
i think u'll agree.
so if the righteous are raised on the last day, then that cancells out pre trib all together.
[/quote]
A day begins with the night in the Word of God.

Before the night comes of that "Last Day" which is one thousand years long, the Church must be removed from the midst of the world.

The tribulation is at the beginning of the "Last Day" of one thousand years, and that is called the "short hour of darkness" in which no man can work.
That is the night before the Dawning of the Day Star.

When the Day Star arises over Israel at the end of the gross darkness of the tribulation night, then there will be no more night there for the thousand years.
The gates of Jerusalem will never be shut in that Sabbath Millennium, for in the millennial reign, there is no end to the Day where the Glory of the Light is shining out from.


Isa 60:1 ¶ Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.
Isa 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
Isa 60:3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
Isa 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that [men] may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and [that] their kings [may be] brought.
Isa 60:19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.
Isa 60:20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.

Jhn 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

Jhn 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

it can't be the last day, with 7 years to go before time is no longer.

"Time's up. No more delay" is the statement the angel made, as Bible scholars all agree.
There is a sun, moon, and stars forever, in the regenerated heaven's, shining on earth, measuring the days and years forever, without end; but the City of God in heaven, shines with the Glory of God over Jerusalem forever, as the Light of God: Jerusalem below is the example of Jerusalem above, forever.

Jer 31:35
Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, [and] the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts [is] his name:
Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, [then] the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Isa 45:17 [But] Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I [am] the LORD; and [there is] none else.

Enoch 58:
2Blessed are ye, ye righteous and elect,
For glorious shall be your lot. 3And the righteous shall be in the light of the sun,
And the elect in the light of eternal life:
The days of their life shall be unending,
And the days of the holy without number.
4And they shall seek the light and find righteousness with the Lord of Spirits:
There shall be peace to the righteous in the name of the Eternal Lord.
5And after this it shall be said to the holy in heaven
That they should seek out the secrets of righteousness, the heritage of faith:
For it has become bright as the sun upon earth,
And the darkness is past.
6And there shall be a light that never endeth,
And to a number of days they shall not come,
For the darkness shall first have been destroyed,
And the light established before the Lord of Spirits
And the light of uprightness established for ever before the Lord of Spirits.

 

[ThatWhichIsnt]

Don't just debunk pre-trib, try to debunk the whole flawed view of dispensational premillennialism.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Don't just debunk pre-trib, try to debunk the whole flawed view of dispensational premillennialism.

Enoch was the first to write of the last days and the change the righteous go through before the evil day of the tribulation. Enoch was the first to write of the flood and of the tribulation to come before the millennial Sabbath. Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam, was the first to write eschatology truths.


Enoch 50: the translation to glory, the left behind ones who repent and believe in the name of the son of Man, and the judgment of the unrepentant during the day of evil =the tribulation.

50 And in those days a change shall take place for the holy and elect,
And the light of days shall abide upon them,
And glory and honour shall turn to the holy,
2On the day of affliction on which evil shall have been treasured up against the sinners.
And the righteous shall be victorious in the name of the Lord of Spirits:
And He will cause the others to witness this
That they may repent
And forgo the works of their hands.
3They shall have no honour through the name of the Lord of Spirits,
Yet through His name shall they be saved,
And the Lord of Spirits will have compassion on them,
For His compassion is great.
4And He is righteous also in His judgement,
And in the presence of His glory unrighteousness also shall not maintain itself:
At His judgement the unrepentant shall perish before Him.
5And from henceforth I will have no mercy on them, saith the Lord of Spirits.

 

[RDoubleU]

OK, well here's another question, how does one know when the tribulation has started? Who here on earth has the authority to say we have 7 years left? What takes place to confirm this??