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Debunking Calvinism with Scripture

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cygnusx1

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here is the essence of Calvinism ;

"if God be for us who can be against us " !!!

such a statement is redundant in the Arminian world of millions of free-wills and a frustrated God.

So 'Calvinism' brings only good news of the only true God , one who is Sovereign. :)
 
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chestertonrules

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here is the essence of Calvinism ;

"if God be for us who can be against us " !!!

such a statement is redundant in the Arminian world of millions of free-wills and a frustrated God.

So 'Calvinism' brings only good news of the only true God , one who is Sovereign. :)
More accurate:

God sends most people to hell and there's nothing they can do about it.

Do you disagree?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I sell raw materials, alloys and carbon mostly, to ferrous metals melters.
Did someone mention Smelters?

Ezekiel 22:19 "Therefore thus says the my Lord YHW: 'Because you have all become dross, therefore behold, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. 20 '[As men] gather silver, bronze, iron, lead, and tin into the midst of a furnace, to blow fire on it, to melt [it;] so I will gather [you] in My anger and in My fury, and I will leave [you there] and melt you. 21 'Yes, I will gather you and blow on you with the fire of My wrath, and you shall be melted in its midst. 22 'As silver is melted in the midst of a furnace, so shall you be melted in its midst; then you shall know that I, the LORD, have poured out My fury on you.' "
 
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cygnusx1

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More accurate:

God sends most people to hell and there's nothing they can do about it.

Do you disagree?

yes!!!

it's nothing but a charicature , a dummy target .

here's a none distorted view ;

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent" (Acts 17:30).

"But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance" (Acts 26:20)


Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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here is the essence of Calvinism ;

"if God be for us who can be against us " !!!

such a statement is redundant in the Arminian world of millions of free-wills and a frustrated God.

So 'Calvinism' brings only good news of the only true God , one who is Sovereign. :)

Seems to me the only good news from Calvinism is what Calvin kept from the Catholic Church. I submit that anything else is man made and not of God because it did not exist as an accepted christian teaching until Calvin and his followers made it so.
 
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cygnusx1

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Seems to me the only good news from Calvinism is what Calvin kept from the Catholic Church. I submit that anything else is man made and not of God because it did not exist as an accepted christian teaching until Calvin and his followers made it so.

the orthodox say the same , usually to your lot !!¬!! :D ^_^


anyone can see it's just rhetoric :wave:
 
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cygnusx1

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Of course it is. But then so is your cartoon version of Arminianism.

A plague on both your houses. Neither of you are doing anything but displaying your egos.

I see your "theology" is just like your choice of parties .... liberal. :holy:
 
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JacktheCatholic

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anyone can see it's just rhetoric :wave:

Rhetoric is part of any good debate and if it helps to get a point across the all the better. It is not necessarily bad or good in itself but rather how it is used.

If I was using rhetoric then you should know it was with best intentions and to be honest without deceit.:)
 
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chestertonrules

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yes!!!

it's nothing but a charicature , a dummy target .

here's a none distorted view ;

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent" (Acts 17:30).

"But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance" (Acts 26:20)


Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
No, it is is the cold hard heresy of Calvinism, which has created a God without mercy or love who damns millons, if no billions, of people to Hell and there is nothing they can do about it.

Is this who you think God is?
 
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cygnusx1

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No, it is is the cold hard heresy of Calvinism, which has created a God without mercy or love who damns millons, if no billions, of people to Hell and there is nothing they can do about it.

Is this who you think God is?


huh !

ye cannot have read my post , the same answer applies to this er thing you are inventing.....
 
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Nachtjager

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:doh:I think the whole concept is absurd, the whole argument of predestination sickens me, I can't believe that it doesn't cause our Lord to shake his head in dispair about how much energy we expend arguing this theology pro and con. As for me, I think Calvinism is completely wrong, I think the whole doctrine is ridiculous and contrary to the vast majority of the NT. The root of the problem, and it is a problem, I firmly believe, lies in faulty translation of the scriptures dating back to the foundation of the church.

Paul didn't write Romans, Tertius did, so the first generation text of Romans had the language translated from Aramaic to Latin right off the bat, then by the time the Christian church was gaining momentum almost a century later, this text had been translated from Latin to Greek. The Greek word for "ordained" and "destined" is extremely similar, and that's assuming Paul' initial dictation was recorded accurately in the first place. There are a lot of issues.

Long and short, here's what it boils down to. If I knew (somehow) beyond doubt my daughter was going to kill someone next week, and I did nothing to prevent it, would I be just and right for allowing it to happen or would I be a scoundrel? Who, at that point is accountable for the act? Is it purely the fault of my daughter or do I share the blame because I knew it would happen and didn't prevent it. In a court of law, I would be an accessory to the crime, and for good reason. Calvinism makes our God into a criminal. I've heard all the arguments, I've read all the debates, I'll not change anyone's mind and I doubt if this will do any good, but please, Calvinists, open your eyes and realize that ALL of us are under God's grace and exercise our will to choose Him. YES, He guides us, YES, He implores us to come, YES, He desires we should choose Him, but what point is love if those who love you have no choice? Is that love or is that pointless power?

God wants us to love Him, you'll never convince me, with any argument, that HE FORCES people to love Him and PREVENTS others from loving Him, just "for his good pleasure." If that is the case, God is absolutely NOT sovereign and your whole theology is based on a false idol.

Take care all and God bless. :wave:
 
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What does the Bible teach about election?







Election is the act of God whereby in eternity past He chose those who will be saved. Election is unconditional, because it does not depend on anything outside of God, such as good works or foreseen faith (Romans 9:16). This doctrine is repeatedly taught in the Bible, and is also demanded by our knowledge of God. To begin with, let's look at the biblical evidence.
The Bible says prior to salvation, all people are dead in sin—spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1-3). In this state of death, the sinner is utterly unable to respond to any spiritual stimulus and therefore unable to love God, obey Him, or please Him in any way. Scripture says the mind of every unbeliever "is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:7-8, emphasis added). That describes a state of total hopelessness: spiritual death.
The effect of all this is that no sinner can ever make the first move in the salvation process. This is what Jesus meant in John 6:44, when He said, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him."

This is also why the Bible repeatedly stresses that salvation is wholly God's work. Consider these passages:
  • In Acts 13:48 we read, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."
  • Acts 16:14 tells us that Lydia was saved when, "... the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul."
  • Romans 8:29-30 states, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."
  • Ephesians 1:4-5,11 reads, "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will ... also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will."
  • Ephesians 2:8 says even our faith is a gift from God.
  • In 2 Thessalonians 2:13, the apostle Paul tells his readers, "God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation."
  • Second Timothy 1:9 informs us that God "has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity."
Occasionally someone will suggest that God's election is based on His foreknowledge of certain events. This argument suggests that God simply looks into the future to see who will believe, and He chooses those whom He sees choosing Him. Notice that 1 Peter 1:2 says the elect are chosen "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father," and Romans 8:29 says, "whom He foreknew, He also predestined." And if divine foreknowledge simply means God's knowledge of what will happen in advance, then these arguments may appear to have some weight behind them.
But that is not the biblical meaning of "foreknowledge." When the Bible speaks of God's foreknowledge, it refers to God's establishment of a love relationship with that person. The word know, in both the Old and New Testament, refers to much more than mere cognitive knowledge of a person. Such passages as Hosea 13:4-5; Amos 3:2 (KJV); and Romans 11:2 clearly indicate this. For example, 1 Peter 1:20 says Christ was "foreknown before the foundation of the world." Surely this means more than that God the Father looked into the future to behold Christ! It means He had an eternal, loving relationship with Him. The same is true of the elect, whom we are told God "foreknew" (Romans 8:29). That means He knew them—he loved them—before the foundation of the world.
If God's choice of the elect is unconditional, does this rule out human responsibility? Paul asks and answers that very question in Romans 9:19-20. He says God's choice of the elect is an act of mercy. Left to themselves, even the elect would persist in sin and be lost, because they are taken from the same fallen lump of clay as the rest of humanity. God alone is responsible for their salvation, but that does not eradicate the responsibility of those who persist in sin and are lost—because they do it willfully, and not under compulsion. They are responsible for their sin, not God.
The Bible affirms human responsibility right alongside the doctrine of divine sovereignty. Moreover, the offer of mercy in the gospel is extended to all alike. Isaiah 55:1 and Revelation 22:17 call "whosoever will" to be saved. Isaiah 45:22 and Acts 17:30 command all men to turn to God, repent and be saved. First Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 tell us that God is not willing that any should perish, but desires that all should be saved. Finally, the Lord Jesus said that, "the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out" (John 6:37).
In summary, we can say that God has had a special love relationship with the elect from all eternity, and on the basis of that love relationship chosen them for salvation. The ultimate question of why God chose some for salvation and left others in their sinful state is one that we, with our finite knowledge, cannot answer. We do know that God's attributes always are in perfect harmony with each other, so that God's sovereignty will always operate in perfect harmony with His goodness, love, wisdom, and justice.
 
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Nachtjager

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With all due respect to the previous post, PLEASE, get a Young's Literal Translation Bible or any more accurate version than the NIV or King James or something. Look up the words "foreknown" or "elect" in Young's literal translation and you will find these words twice. In neither case does it refer to God picking people out to be saved while condemning others.

You are perpetuating a false doctrine based on faulty translation of ancient texts. Please, look into what the oldest texts actually say and what the early church fathers had to say about them - our current view of the canon and the scriptures has gone off the tracks in many places.

The scriptures you quote, left the way you quote them, completely contradict each other and again, this is why so many people chose to be athiests. To say that God shows mercy on some and not on others, just because, is not a decent explanation and it certainly isn't an example of a just and sovereign God. God is just, God is love, and I believe the majority of the NT texts which state that salvation is available to ALL who CHOOSE to serve and love the Lord - not just some few chosen people. Again, why would a just and loving God who desires that ALL should come to Him CHOOSE to send people to hell just because before the foundation of the world, he was in the mood to do so?

If you don't have the choice to accept Christ or reject Him, what's the point of faith?

Take care all and God bless! :wave:
 
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wonderwoman

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You must reject these verses to be a Calvinist:

1 Peter 1
17Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.

EACH MAN!!

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

THE WORLD!!

1 Timothy 2
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

ALL MEN!!

- Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

EVERY MAN!!

- Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you don not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

IF!!!

- James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by WORKS, and not by faith alone."

Whose works??

- John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

Who refuses? God or Man?


Here's my basic beef with Calvinism:
How can a just God judge souls who were born to be damned? I.E how can he hold someone accountable if they were "programmed" to reject him? The very definition of judgment carries with it an implication of choice on the part of the lawbreaker. If God basically made the choice for them and thereby removed their ability to choose or reject him, then what an unjust god that is. It's like saying A superior court judge put an implant in a convicts brain which forced the convict to murder, then the judge tries him and finds him guilty for something the convict was forced to do or had no control to stop from doing. The culpability of guilt would fall on the judge not the convict.
 
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